In Search of the Miraculous: Observations and Questions

Psalehesost

The Living Force
Green_Manalishi said:
Since Gurdjieff explicitly says that this light is consciousness and that some processes can only take part in total darkness, i think it is reasonably to conclude that some processes must be made with total lack of consciousness, or am i reading it wrong? So what could that processes be?

Try to Self-Remember and see what changes in mechanical activity. While, without a ton of work, we cannot remember ourselves for long, the duration is enough to, when repeated, give first hand knowledge.

Green_Manalishi said:
Also it came to my mind that in "The Dwellings of the Philosophers" that passage i talked about could be one of the famous diversions that the masters resorted to in order to lead astray the ones that are not worthy, as they say (not that i think i'm worthy :)). I say this because Gurdjieff points to a necessity of an inner light and darkness and Fulcanelli to the need/lack of an actual material/physical light. Of course that with this i'm assuming that there is no necessity of nothing outside of ourselfs to perform our inner alchemy and that they are talking about the same process.

If they are talking about the same process, I think it would indeed be a standard case of symbolism, and a rather straightforward one compared to much else. When reading such text, I always see if I can 'map' what is said to esoteric concepts and get something coherent out if it that fits and 'works'. Having the proper ability to read cabalistically the book in original language would probably be much better, but this is at any rate better than nothing, and allows grasping a small portion of it.

OSIT.
 

EmeraldHope

The Living Force
Green_Manalishi said:
Since Gurdjieff explicitly says that this light is consciousness and that some processes can only take part in total darkness, i think it is reasonably to conclude that some processes must be made with total lack of consciousness, or am i reading it wrong? So what could that processes be?

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I have always understood it to mean that some of the processes that needed to remain unconcious were things like cell division, monitoring white blood cell counts, heart beat, etc. Things that would be too much of a distraction if they were all to become concious.
 

Psalehesost

The Living Force
EmeraldHope said:
Green_Manalishi said:
Since Gurdjieff explicitly says that this light is consciousness and that some processes can only take part in total darkness, i think it is reasonably to conclude that some processes must be made with total lack of consciousness, or am i reading it wrong? So what could that processes be?

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I have always understood it to mean that some of the processes that needed to remain unconcious were things like cell division, monitoring white blood cell counts, heart beat, etc. Things that would be too much of a distraction if they were all to become concious.

That is probably also true, but does not seem relevant to the part in question in ISOTM:

ISOTM said:
[...] Self-observation brings man to the realization of the necessity for self-change. And in observing himself a man notices that self-observation itself brings about certain changes in his inner processes. He begins to understand that self-observation is an instrument of self change, a means of awakening. By observing himself he throws, as it were, a ray of light onto his inner processes which have hitherto worked in complete darkness. And under the influence of this light the processes themselves begin to change. There are a great many chemical processes that can take place only in the absence of light. Exactly in the same way many psychic processes can take place only in the dark. Even a feeble light of consciousness is enough to change completely the character of a process, while it makes many of them altogether impossible. Our inner psychic processes (our inner alchemy) have much in common with those chemical processes in which light changes the character of the process and they are subject to analogous laws.
 

anart

The Living Force
EmeraldHope said:
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I have always understood it to mean that some of the processes that needed to remain unconcious were things like cell division, monitoring white blood cell counts, heart beat, etc. Things that would be too much of a distraction if they were all to become concious.

To my understanding, I don't think that is what he means. Those processes you mention are automatic physiological processes; processes of the machine as it were. I think G is referring to the idea that unconscious (mechanical) processes (programs) can only run in the darkness which is personal lack of self-knowledge and awareness. When one shines light on those processes, they no longer run with full control over the mind and behavior.

There is also the possibility that there are other subconscious processes that occur as well in 'darkness' from the conscious mind that are beneficial. I think one example of these sorts of things are many of the reported effects of EE and what amounts to a subconscious processing and healing that occurs when we begin to make contact with the 'true' parts of ourselves. Often, we are 'working' on things in the background, as it were - outside the borders of our conscious minds and awareness, so this is another possibility. With that said, I think in the quoted section, he is directly referring to the fact that programs can't run as they 'intend' if we shine the light of consciousness on them. fwiw.
 

EmeraldHope

The Living Force
anart said:
EmeraldHope said:
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I have always understood it to mean that some of the processes that needed to remain unconcious were things like cell division, monitoring white blood cell counts, heart beat, etc. Things that would be too much of a distraction if they were all to become concious.

To my understanding, I don't think that is what he means. Those processes you mention are automatic physiological processes; processes of the machine as it were. I think G is referring to the idea that unconscious (mechanical) processes (programs) can only run in the darkness which is personal lack of self-knowledge and awareness. When one shines light on those processes, they no longer run with full control over the mind and behavior.

There is also the possibility that there are other subconscious processes that occur as well in 'darkness' from the conscious mind that are beneficial. I think one example of these sorts of things are many of the reported effects of EE and what amounts to a subconscious processing and healing that occurs when we begin to make contact with the 'true' parts of ourselves. Often, we are 'working' on things in the background, as it were - outside the borders of our conscious minds and awareness, so this is another possibility. With that said, I think in the quoted section, he is directly referring to the fact that programs can't run as they 'intend' if we shine the light of consciousness on them. fwiw.

Thank you Anart. I may have jumped the gun too quick on that one.

Rereading the excerpt again and your and Psalehesost's replies I see it in a different light. STS programs cannot operate as normal if we are concious and aware of them.

I had read somewhere, and I do not remember where, that the unconcious mind controlled the physiological processes of the machine. I think I just lumped that in with this.
 

Green_Manalishi

Jedi Master
anart said:
I think G is referring to the idea that unconscious (mechanical) processes (programs) can only run in the darkness which is personal lack of self-knowledge and awareness. When one shines light on those processes, they no longer run with full control over the mind and behavior.

I started from the assumption that he was talking about beneficial aspects of processes that could only take part in the dark. But it makes more sense if he was talking about a detrimental process that can only happen in the dark, since showing light on it would automatic stop it.

Thanks for the clarification.
 

aragorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
anart said:
I think G is referring to the idea that unconscious (mechanical) processes (programs) can only run in the darkness which is personal lack of self-knowledge and awareness. When one shines light on those processes, they no longer run with full control over the mind and behavior.

Fwiw, this is how I understood that passage too.
 

anart

The Living Force
EmeraldHope said:
STS programs cannot operate as normal if we are concious and aware of them.

Exactly - and just remember that all of our programs are STS since WE are STS. All we can strive to be from this point in 'time' is STO candidates - and that's a lot! :)
 

Green_Manalishi

Jedi Master
The flow of impressions coming to us from
outside is like a driving belt communicating motion to us. The principal motor for us
is nature, the surrounding world. Nature transmits to us through our impressions the
energy by which we live and move and have our being If the inflow of this energy is
arrested, our machine will immediately stop working Thus, of the three kinds of food
the most important for us is impressions

Could the most finer type of this impressions be the ones that people generally feel when they are in the midst of great nature, or hear a great piece of music, when it's almost like an ecstasy? If so, at least for me, it adds an all new level of depth when i look at something beautiful in nature, it kind of makes me wonder that it is a good idea to really search for "the beautiful" in nature and try to even absorb more of that.
 

patty2292

Jedi Master
Just hit chapter 9, p167 today in ISOTM. And within a previous chapter it explained the basis for the octaves. I somewhat got the jist of that, but now in this chapter G. is applying it to the ray of creation, and the three octaves of radiations that pass through all existing worlds from the absolute. To say i was mind boggled is an understatement... But i kept reading, trying to get the main message of what was being said even if i couldn't understand the technicals.

Then he went on to use these octaves to describe the process of absorbing energy, and converting dense 'hydrogens' into finer ones to be utilized by the organism for maximizing output.
Again i got the general idea, i think, that the aim is to create a shock - which will maximize the potential absorption of all the 3 food types; Food, Air and Impressions. This shock is simply described as remembering oneself. Going from ONE, the breathing, into TWO, breathing and watching oneself breath. Which increases the absorption of higher hydrogens as your body becomes more awake to the actually breathing in of energy. This can be applied to the 3 categories of food, and very important with impressions, as a man cannot continue to live without these.

It really hit me, as ive never seen or heard of G. talking about things such as food for Man. Which I seen as the purpose for things like the diet, breathing exercises and why we should simply avoid things such as the C's have recently said; negative music, for example. All done in a self aware state. As we are constantly absorbing all around us, which all has a potential energy for us to use. SO to fully fuel the machine/factory we need to stop not only wasting our current energy, but be watchful of what is being absorbed.

But my query and struggle is the application of the octaves G. talks about to all of this. Is it necessary for this to be understood fully at this time? As i simply could not see the bigger picture. Even when my concentration was high and conditions where perfect for reading. But nothing deeper than the message was being absorbed. Im not taking it harshly that i couldnt understand what was being described, as truthfully i just couldnt see that deeply into the idea that he was trying to describe. This lets me know that i am not currently at that level, and should not rush ahead or stress over it.

Maybe best to continue to gather what i am currently able to comprehend, and attend to the more complex topics at a later date? Or is this information of high importance to gain a greater understanding of this whole analogy?
 

Approaching Infinity

Administrator
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FOTCM Member
Huxley said:
Maybe best to continue to gather what i am currently able to comprehend, and attend to the more complex topics at a later date? Or is this information of high importance to gain a greater understanding of this whole analogy?

I'd say the former more than the latter. As with a lot of stuff Gurdjieff writes, it may be that with time and experience, and further re-readings, things may 'click' in new ways, but I don't think it's necessary to really force yourself. Most (all?) people have trouble with that octave stuff!
 

Beau

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FOTCM Member
Approaching Infinity said:
I'd say the former more than the latter. As with a lot of stuff Gurdjieff writes, it may be that with time and experience, and further re-readings, things may 'click' in new ways, but I don't think it's necessary to really force yourself. Most (all?) people have trouble with that octave stuff!

Uh yeah, I never really "got" the octave stuff either, so don't feel alone there! I don't think that stuff is entirely integral to understanding the principles of G's Work as outlined in ISOTM. I wouldn't get too worked up about struggling with it. If you feel like none of it is understandable, it's probably better to just skip it instead of getting bogged down in deciphering what he was trying to get across.
 

patty2292

Jedi Master
Heimdallr said:
Approaching Infinity said:
I'd say the former more than the latter. As with a lot of stuff Gurdjieff writes, it may be that with time and experience, and further re-readings, things may 'click' in new ways, but I don't think it's necessary to really force yourself. Most (all?) people have trouble with that octave stuff!

Uh yeah, I never really "got" the octave stuff either, so don't feel alone there! I don't think that stuff is entirely integral to understanding the principles of G's Work as outlined in ISOTM. I wouldn't get too worked up about struggling with it. If you feel like none of it is understandable, it's probably better to just skip it instead of getting bogged down in deciphering what he was trying to get across.

Yeah I new pretty much it was out of my league, so I was happy to leave it be for now and not waste time and energy running in circles. Damn Gurdjieff and his riddles :P. Thanks for the confirmation.
 

Renaissance

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FOTCM Member
The octaves and different levels of impressions and what not may relate in some ways to densities, levels of values, etc., but I think there are better and more clear sources for such things. Gurdjieff also seemed to put some information out there as a means of keeping some types of people distracted with figuring out the 'secrets of the world' and other people deterred who may have a strong introject telling them they are not smart enough. The work has very little to do with these things, or rather I think the work involves more of a type of struggle where you don't get bogged down/ identified with either the material or yourself. I think it's fine to read through and take what you can.
 

kenlee

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Huxley said:
Maybe best to continue to gather what i am currently able to comprehend, and attend to the more complex topics at a later date?

I think that's a good approach. I think attempting to understand the more complex aspects of the teachings such as the ray of creation, food diagrams, theory of octaves, hydrogens, etc., is a very good exercise in abstract thinking but I wouldn't worry about understanding it as a whole. Probably some deeper part of you will recognize the interconnections of these ideas to greater and lesser degrees but the part of you that mostly thinks concretely (the everyday practical part) may not 'see' these interconnections. But another part of you, a deeper part, may begin to make connections without the 'everyday' you being conscious of it. But I think the repeated efforts to understand it is what will help bridge the gap between the two worlds as it were. You gotta be very patient though! A little bit at a time.
 
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