India and Pakistan head to war ?

Hard to know what is the truth.

Why do some body put military airbase (Nur Khan) with nuclear weapons that is 10 to 20km from capital that uses the same infrastructure for international airport ( Benazir Bhutto) with Nuclear command center nearer to it? All of this is 10 to 20 km from the capital. May be that is how it works.

It is becoming much bizzare to read this document from this post
Trump_pakistan_exchange.png

It looks 5 Chinese soldiers died in the attack.

 
Very contradictory claims about who "won" that confrontation - some claim that Pakistan was close to total defeat and would have had to use nuclear weapons if India didn't stop, while articles like the above claim that Pakistan basically won the air war and that India's military power is overstated.
 
Very contradictory claims about who "won" that confrontation - some claim that Pakistan was close to total defeat and would have had to use nuclear weapons if India didn't stop, while articles like the above claim that Pakistan basically won the air war and that India's military power is overstated.

One way to interpret outcome is based on declared aim. India only said it is retaliation ( i.e. comes with danger of being drawn out into long war with all sorts of unintended consequences of large human and economic damage). It is Pakistan which said all out war. As for as Modi's thoughts are concerned it is clear (even to the public) and expressed by him in this video (before he even became Prime minister most probably in late 2013 or early 2014). Press 'CC' to see the english subtitles.


Yesterday, I watched Modi's speech- a typical Modi speech though somewhat more emotional than before, laying out aims, what he achieved and how he wants to go about . At the end he said to the effect that If Pakistan wants to talk there are only topics on the agenda - Terrorism and Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. i.e.
  • Kashmir issue that Pakistan used as a 'interfering boyfriend' for 78 years with the help of the West and nuclear blackmail is gone for ever.
  • Even the Indus dam water issue is not even in the agenda. Basically Pakistan is at India's mercy unless China wants to intervene and redirect the water. i.e it can't do anything without China's help and it will act as deterrent for all parties.
and He warned that if any terrorist activity happens from Pakistan, it is considered as act of War and he will completely destroy the country to pieces. We will have to see how it goes.

Without being asked Pakistan released a Indian soldier who was captured 20 days back (before the war had started).

 
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Some thoughts on Indo-Pak war which was officially on pause. There was lot of resistance to post this.

Last week, my western educated Son posted a message saying "can India and Pakistan stop bombing each other plz, my life is going too well rn", that upset his Anti-Modi Mom and retorted back saying 'Western media only supports Pakistan'. After couple of dozen messages and they chose to delete those messages to avoid any further triggers. Her reaction is not that specific to her and it is sentiment of billion+ people.

The question my son has asked must have asked billions of times including my self. We (me and my son) talked about 'Nuclear fear factor' is also used by West since cold war days, which Pakistan exploits. So West won't give positive opinion of India. Worse, Indian history is created based on colonial 'Why need us' format and western intellectuals are educated on that. Any change in the narration needs lot of explanation and it takes time. There is different ground reality to this antagonism.

Religious Tension

Religious tensions exist from Colonial times - see this post. Why does it continue? The answer lies in exclusive "Islamic Solidarity"( see this to get some background to a question I asked C's) that will never accept rulers of any other religion. This reflected in certain Muslim temperaments like supporting Pakistan at the every opportunity and occasional communal violence. It is common to say 'go to Pakistan, if you like so much' when things became hot. Added to that fundie Hindu's sacred cow business, the religious tension is there below the surface for billion people. Added to that Mumbai mafia control of Bollywood and its superstar Khan group bias toward Pakistan is a controversy keep popping up.

When these terrorist attacks happen, West folds to Pakistani nuclear blackmail in the name of both-sides-ism, Indians feels like 'Insult to the injury' or 'Salt to the wound'. Worse, Indians tend to get leaked raw footage of Muslim leaders in India and Pakistan bragging of 'death by 1000 cuts' to Hindus. That is why when Indian Foreign minister Jai Sankar says 'We need partners, not preachers' it resonates with its citizens. Until Modi became PM, these type of terror attacks tend to evoke sense of hopelessness. When Modi says 'No more tolerance', Indians goes with it trusting the man they chose to elect. But that will comes unknown risk of nuclear war. But the common man's anger is centered around 'how long this blackmail will go on' has no answer. In all the wars it is the Pakistan the initiator , gets beaten , repeats the same. But, world chose to ignore it. Wes

With 600,000+ villages, 6K towns and 6K cities, and instant social media, any incident in one place becomes viral (whether right wing parities promote or not).In any case 'Minority appeasement' of Nehru-Gandhi dynasty is a big topic to the ruling party in the name of 'Sicularism', whose origins goes back to countering Islamic violence during British days.

This attack and selective shooting and killing of members of one religion while sparing the members of the other, screams 'false flag' or deliberate act to sow division, all the way to high heaven. India got almost perfect justification to do what's now apparently been doing, to land directly in its lap. Almost too perfect...

Who would have thought that this region could be flared up so easily? And both countries are nuclear powers, on top of it all.
I think this incident is more of a typical India-Pakistan issue linked to Hindu-Muslim internal tension rather than from outside actors.

April 22nd Terror attack.


There are past instances civilians are attacked and killed based on religion. That didn't awoke this much reaction. This April 22nd terrorist attack has some interesting message and timing.

Specifically singling out the Hindus happened before too. They not only killed Hindu tourists in front of their parents and telling them 'Go and Tell Modi' ( FIRST INSTANCE this type of direct challenge issued). Timing wise, it came with in a month after Modi's Govt. BROKE the back of Muslim leaders who run the Islamic religious charity bodies called Waqf boards. This Waqf (Amendment) Bill, 2025 brought Islamic bodies accountable just like other Hindu and Christian religious bodies.

I think this terrorist attack and particularly say 'Go and Tell Modi' to meant to cheer up Indian Muslim leaders who were demoralized after Waqf (Amendment) Bill 2025 in April.

Pakistani ISI is like family business where one family member is in army and another is terrorist and both fight for family/clan pride (not for the country). In a away it is like Pentagon. So Pakistani ISI LOVE this low intensity cat and mouse game (any way West will bail them out), which Indians HATE and it was going on for 78 years.

Indian Islam's Waqf boards and Amendment Bill, 2025

Waqf Boards in India oversee a vast amount of land, making them one of the largest landowners in the country. They manage approximately 8.7 lakh properties, covering around 9.4 lakh acres of land, with an estimated value of ₹1.2 lakh crore. This makes them the third-largest landholder in India, following the Armed Forces and Indian Railways.

Their holdings include a mix of heritage sites, government properties, and religious assets, some of which have sparked legal and political debates.

It grew by whopping 320.9% increase since 2014( 207,394 Waqf properties/1.8 million acres in 2013 to 665,476 properties/3.9 million acres). They were aggressively using their 'Waqf by user' privileges to own more land in India.

Waqf Boards in India generate revenue primarily through rent, donations, and commercial leases on Waqf properties. However, their financial transparency has been a subject of debate. Here’s what is known:
- Total Income: Estimates suggest that Waqf Boards collectively generate ₹12,000 crore annually (US $1.4 Billion) from their properties.
- Tax Exemptions: Waqf institutions enjoy significant tax exemptions, as they are classified under charitable and religious trusts. This means they pay little to no income tax on their earnings.
- Audit & Accountability: The Waqf Amendment Act 2025 introduced stricter auditing requirements, mandating annual financial disclosures and government oversight to prevent misuse.

Why this bill is so bold ( or UN-THINKABLE decade back) one has to understand the "solidarity" among Muslims crossing the borders line , Hindu-Muslim tensions (exist from British days), vote bank politics in which Muslim leaders enjoy privileged untouchable status and usual power politics. But Indian muslims relatively very poor.

"Solidarity"among Muslims The background to the following question to C's can be found in this article

For a Musalman, loyalty to faith trumps his loyalty to the country’ ...

‘To Muslims of India, a Hindu is a Kaffir and therefore, undeserving of respect and equal treatment’: BR Ambedkar


Q: (seek10) C's mentioned that, "Islam is the miscegenation of the worst of both Judaism and Christianity." There is a strong black and white thinking in Muslims, particularly in countries where they are a minority, including current European migrants that follow Muslim canon law that divides the world into two camps, Dar-ul-Islam (abode of Islam) and Dar-ul-Harb (abode of war) at their own peril. How is this psychology sustained so strongly even in this age of technology? Is it related to rigid practice of prayers or is there more to it?

A: Don't really need much more than intensive familial and social programming. Also, there is the circumcision during pubertal imprint point.
In this case, it is the inordinate amount Muslim leaders( Muslim politicians, Mullah/Imams etc.) hold over their poor population inciting at their will. This Waqf boards has MORE property than Muslim population's property combined.

The most controversial means they acquire is 'Waqf by user' - If a waqf board claims a property saying it was once used for Islamic religious purpose, It becomes theirs. no proof or any paper work needed. Even if it is used 200 years back, once they claim it become Waqf property. Once it is declared it as Waqf, it is always its property. There are 8,000 court cases pending victims complaining of their property taken over . In Some cases, entire villages. Courts can do nothing. That is level of dysfunctionality of court rules created by the previous rulers ( including BJP). you can see this video to get the idea of how charity in Indian Islam works.

Based on the questions I asked Copilot create a article. I am not satisfied with its normalization bias but here is

The Evolution, Controversies, and Legal Challenges of Waqf Properties in India

Introduction

Waqf properties in India have long played a crucial role in religious and charitable activities. Managed by State Waqf Boards, these properties form one of the largest land holdings in the country, with an estimated 9.4 lakh acres under their administration. However, their expansion, legal status, and governance have remained contentious, sparking debates around ownership, encroachment, financial transparency, and government intervention.

Historical Foundations and Growth


The concept of Waqf in India traces back to Islamic traditions, where individuals endow properties for religious or charitable purposes. Over time, these properties have significantly expanded:
  • In 2013, India had 2,07,394 Waqf properties.
  • Post-2014, Waqf holdings increased by 320.9%, reaching over 8.7 lakh properties in 2025.
  • The total Waqf land area now stands at 39 lakh acres, marking a 116% increase from pre-2013 estimates.
This rapid expansion has raised concerns about unregulated property acquisitions, particularly through Waqf by User, where lands are declared Waqf based on prolonged religious use rather than documented endowments.

Waqf by User: Legal Framework & Controversies


Waqf by User has sparked multiple legal and political disputes, including cases where properties claimed under Waqf laws lacked proper documentation:
  • 1. Government Land Disputes
    • The Waqf Amendment Bill 2025 explicitly bars government land from being declared as Waqf property.
    • Over the years, hospitals, schools, and government offices have been wrongfully claimed as Waqf land, leading to legal disputes.
    2. Delhi High Court Premises Case
    • The Delhi Waqf Board claimed ownership of land where the Delhi High Court is located, arguing that it was historically Waqf property.
    • The claim was challenged by the government, leading to legal battles over whether the land should remain under Waqf control or be officially recognized as government property.
    3. Kerala Christian Village Controversy
    • A predominantly Christian village in Kerala was controversially declared Waqf land, sparking protests from local residents.
    • The Kerala Waqf Board argued that historical religious use justified the claim, but opposition groups challenged it in court.
    4. Gujarat Government Buildings Dispute
    • Several government buildings in Gujarat were claimed by the state Waqf Board, leading to ownership disputes.
    • The government denied the claims, arguing that the properties were never officially designated as Waqf.
    5. Karnataka Farmers’ Land Controversy
    • A large tract of farmland used by Karnataka farmers was declared Waqf property, leading to protests.
    • Farmers argued that they had legally owned and cultivated the land for generations, while the Waqf Board insisted it was historically designated for religious use.
    6. Punjab Partition-Era Encroachments
    • In Punjab, more than half of the state’s 75,965 Waqf properties have been encroached upon, largely due to post-partition migration.
    • Many properties were repurposed for Hindu and Sikh refugees, leading to disputes over whether they should be returned to Waqf control.
To address these disputes, the Waqf Amendment Bill 2025 aims to abolish Waqf by User, mandating formal registration for any Waqf claims.

Financial Management & Tax Exemptions


Despite controlling vast land assets, Waqf Boards generate ₹12,000 crore ($1.44 billion) annually through rents and commercial leases, yet contribute little in taxes due to charitable exemptions.
  • While the Waqf Amendment Act 2025 enforces stricter financial oversight, critics argue that Waqf Boards should face greater taxation and transparency requirements.

Post-Partition Linkages & Government Involvement


Many Waqf properties were repurposed post-Partition to accommodate Hindu and Sikh refugees, especially in Delhi and Punjab.

  • The government occupied several Waqf lands to provide housing for displaced communities, leading to ownership disputes.
  • The ongoing land recovery movement aims to assess whether historical Waqf claims should be reinstated or reclassified.

Comparisons with Government Landholdings


While Waqf Boards hold a significant portion of India’s land, they are third in ranking after:
  • Indian Railways4.90 lakh hectares (~12 lakh acres).
  • Indian Armed Forces – over 17 lakh acres.
Despite these figures, Waqf Boards face greater scrutiny, particularly around property claims, encroachments, and political influence.

Future of Waqf Governance

With the 2025 Waqf Amendment Bill, the Indian government aims to:
  • Abolish Waqf by User to prevent misuse.
  • Introduce stricter auditing rules to track revenues.
  • Increase representation of non-Muslims in Waqf governance.
While these changes seek to balance historical significance with legal accountability, they have triggered protests and Supreme Court interventions, making Waqf reform one of India’s most debated property issues.

Conclusion

The evolution of Waqf in India reflects a delicate interplay between history, law, and governance. While Waqf Boards serve an essential role in religious and social welfare, their expanding influence, financial opacity, and property disputes demand greater oversight and legal clarity. With ongoing legal battles and legislative changes, the future of Waqf in India remains a critical topic for policymakers, courts, and affected communities.

The basic point I was trying to say is April 22nd is more to cheer up Muslim leaders who were demoralized by Waqf amendment Bill 2025. Even if this bill was not the there as a excuse, terrorists can attack, if they want and India will retaliate. But this new thing 'Go and Tell Modi' looks to me a clear indication of intent. It is also reflected in NEW enthusiasm of patriotism displayed by Muslim leaders.

None of this pleasant. But, it is what it is.
 
The above video posted by @seek10 is well worth the watch. (only 7 minutes long)

It's pretty concerning, if correct. The amount of AI used recently in the India/Pakistan war and the amount of investment money in AI, so that future wars can be managed by ALL-AI, even down to the shooting of rifles? Again, if so, then no wonder so many countries are going as fast as they can to developed AI. (not just banking and control of citizens)

I wonder what China is making out of this live fire AI test. Can China's AI do better than India's just did? Will China be testing it's war-AI soon? Does this help explain why Musk wants so many Indian worker visa?

@seek10 you may want to pass that video over to the Artificial Intelligence discussion thread. Just a thought.

Related information from my local AI:

A significant portion of the $1.4 trillion investment announced by Trump in the Middle East is directed toward AI and technology sectors. The United Arab Emirates has committed to investing heavily in artificial intelligence infrastructure, semiconductors, and data centers,"
 
The above video posted by @seek10 is well worth the watch. (only 7 minutes long)

It's pretty concerning, if correct. The amount of AI used recently in the India/Pakistan war and the amount of investment money in AI, so that future wars can be managed by ALL-AI, even down to the shooting of rifles? Again, if so, then no wonder so many countries are going as fast as they can to developed AI. (not just banking and control of citizens)
In my view, AI was used by India only for specific roles.

Offensive Role: Rafael's Jamming system used it to identify the weak spot of Chinese system. That is what Jamming systems supposed to do it. Surely AI algorithm made it easy.

Defensive Role: Though it was not mentioned in the video, I read some other place that, India integrated all its systems Russian ( S-400 etc.), Israeli and Indian systems in layers of defense. They used AI for identification of projectiles, tracking, recommending the optimum paths. This simplified the complicated process of shooting down 600 drones and missiles.

In any war, working or not working is matter of life and death. So making all or nothing from a outcome is difficult though we don't have any other choices.

Most of the observers were confused at the daily defense briefings of both Pakistan and India during the operation. Pakistan's briefings are copy cat of Indian one's without proof. If they used any proof, those are social media pictures/Video's or modified version of Indian Video. This surprised every body.

But, once AI explanation came, it became clear of Pakistan's situation. Pakistan has NO video/media to show ( because most of their drones/missiles were shot down and radars were neutralized) and have to plagiarize their enemies version to show to the world. Worse, India deployed 3 naval ships on the south sides ready with supersonic Brahmos missiles. They were not even used. Indian media says New Delhi only used 5% of its capabilities.



I wonder what China is making out of this live fire AI test. Can China's AI do better than India's just did? Will China be testing it's war-AI soon?
As Air Marshal Bharti told in the above video (in Hindi) that it is a cat and mouse game. He mentioned that this war is not like that came before and won't same as the one that will come in future. What worked today may not work tomorrow. So any thing can happen. I am sure Chinese can do LOT better than Pakistan. It's like a sports match, whoever plays better on that day, they Win for that day. Lot goes into for playing better - strategy, surprise, technique, execution etc. In this case, it worked for India.
Does this help explain why Musk wants so many Indian worker visa?
I don't think it is related. But In general, (IMO) Skill and talent exist every where on a individual basis. But identifying which individual the talent ( skill and motivation) is the BIGGEST challenge. So if it is outsourced resource, they can replace easily and cheaply. This is difficult for home grown resources and costly. The crazy pace with which technology changing and motivation to be on the top of it is hard for one resource. It may give more options. It heavily depends who is managing the situation.
@seek10 you may want to pass that video over to the Artificial Intelligence discussion thread. Just a thought.
sure
Related information from my local AI:

A significant portion of the $1.4 trillion investment announced by Trump in the Middle East is directed toward AI and technology sectors. The United Arab Emirates has committed to investing heavily in artificial intelligence infrastructure, semiconductors, and data centers,"
Now a days, the word AI is used for every thing. Unfortunately there is no one magic bullet. It is a self learning tool that simplifies mechanized processes. It depends on the person who is pulling the trigger after understanding the needs of the operation.
 
It's pretty concerning, if correct. The amount of AI used recently in the India/Pakistan war
I think that AI drones are also central in the Ukraine war now, both Russia and Ukraine produce several million combat drones a year. Don't know which percentage of them are AI. I suppose AI is an advantage when drone communication can be jammed.
 
AI can only be used for faster reaction and better situational awareness. Nothing miraculous. It is still hardware on the field that solves the situation. For example, lets say that is true that India brought down 600 Pakistani drones with the help of the AI. AI can predict the trajectories of the drones (as said in the video), and can tell to the antiaircraft guns where to shoot. But you must have enough antiaircraft guns on that trajectory, and the antiaircraft guns are very physical and material things. Not just software. On the end it still have to be done "in the real world". Not to mention that the enemy can hack into your AI and use it against you.

In my opinion, country which uses AI, especially for planing, not just situational awareness, is going to loose the war. And it still doesn't explain how India lost the planes. Especially the very one Rafale which use that AI. AI didn't saw the rocket?
 
In my opinion, country which uses AI, especially for planing, not just situational awareness, is going to loose the war. And it still doesn't explain how India lost the planes. Especially the very one Rafale which use that AI. AI didn't saw the rocket?
See this video about the engagement on the first day and he goes in to very details of logistics , group formations, roles, feasibility of claims and so on.
I think all this AI thing is after this incident, when tit for tat stuff went on for few days.
 
The above video posted by @seek10 is well worth the watch. (only 7 minutes long)

I had to laugh. The news anchor lady says at the end that they get their facts only from verified sources. She states about truthful reporting, "that's what separates a journalist from a loudspeaker." :lol: (U.S. media take note)

Sounds like a successful test run for A.I assisted targeting. Very interesting.
 
FWIW:

"Can China's AI do better than India's just did? Will China be testing it's war-AI soon?"

China to launch world’s first drone ‘mother ship’ (VIDEO)​


"China is preparing to launch what it says is the world’s first “drone carrier” aircraft, capable of releasing swarms of AI-guided kamikaze drones during high-altitude missions."

 
I came across this video on how India knocked out Pakistani the radar locations.



Though this article claims Rafale was not shot down, but there were reports that French company Rafale confirming that one plane was shot down. So there is some confusion over it.
 
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