Intense learning experience at work yesterday

[mada85]

I had a really intense experience yesterday morning which I would like to share. It involved childhood programs, an experience of 'energy draining' and a new insight into a childhood program. I want to describe the event in detail, so this post is quite long.

I had a meeting this morning with a work colleague – who I shall call Sam - which lasted 1½ hours. I had arranged to spend this time with Sam so he could show me his work area. I need to know my way around there for future occasions when I will be covering for Sam in his absence. I had to wait while Sam completed certain tasks, and as he bustled around I began more and more to feel like a little boy with my father (it's taken me several hours to realise this).

As this feeling/program developed in intensity I was at first rather fidgety, standing up and wanting to get out of the office, which anyway was part of our planned schedule. At the time I didn't identify the program I've just described. I simply berated myself for not being able to spend the time with Sam, which I had been looking forward to, without wanting to get away or being agitated. I tried to repress my feelings because they were rather uncomfortable and I did not know where they would lead if I acknowledged them. I think that fear of feeling is also a product of a narcissistic childhood. I have noticed this program arise in me around Sam on previous occasions, but never so strongly as today.

I was with Sam to learn from him and so as we walked round his 'patch' he talked about everything, virtually non-stop. His knowledge of his day-to-day business is excellent. Sam talks fifteen to the dozen, and I wanted him to stop and give me a breather, but, for my own future reference, I needed to hear what he was talking about. I didn't ask for the breather. We visited a few people, and on each occasion I felt like a little boy with his father, or, at least, with my father, who I experienced as emotionally distant and controlling. When we came to the end of our meeting, we discussed time off work, and I mentioned my reasons for having some time off in a couple of days, describing my plans for the day. This was an attempt on my part to rebalance the energy equation between us, although I was running on automatic by that time.

As I walked back to my office, I felt rather numb and disconnected. Not intensely so, but still it was there. It was at the office that another colleague, whom I shall call Alice, mentioned that I looked pale, and asked if I was well. I said that I had experienced some slight indigestion in the early morning (which was true) and left it at that. A few minutes later I realised that my time with Sam had been particularly draining and told her this. She was not surprised, and we went on to discuss Sam. Alice and I found that we have both made many similar observations about Sam.

Sam is overweight and quite jolly, but this jolliness is generally at the expense of a coherent, rational conversation. He is of course capable of extended rational discussion, but even then he does exhibit the same tendency towards flippancy. Alice and I observed that when she and I talk together we can see the humour in the topic under discussion, mention it and even laugh about it, but this does not derail the conversation. In conversation with Sam his jokes do not relate to the topic under discussion, and have the effect of stopping the conversation dead in its tracks. We have both experienced this with him and find it rather frustrating, to the point that we both would rather not spend much time talking to him. I describe this because I find that one effect of talking to Sam is a sensation of always having the rug pulled out from under my feet. I can carry on with the topic of conversation but as it goes on, and Sam's jokes continue, my feeling of bewilderment grows. This is another thing my father did and today contributed to the arousal of my childhood program.

I felt drained of energy after my time with Sam. At first I thought that Sam was a vampire! However, I'm not so sure that this thought is all or even partly true, and not in any conscious sense on Sam's part. It is possible that Sam was functioning as an 'agent of the matrix', or indeed may be an unconscious vampire. However, other aspects of the program that arose in me were feelings of complete worthlessness, lack of valuing myself, and the desire – need, even – to give away my energy or life force. As a child I gave away my life force. You could say that I sold my soul to my narcissistic father. The little boy that I was had no conception that any other way existed, let alone that such might have been possible. And so I was left with the need to erase myself in order to please my daddy. This now manifests as the desire to give my life force at every available opportunity. I don't actually give it away, having learnt over the years how detrimental it is, but on certain occasions the impulse arises accompanied by a strong, virtually uncontrollable upsurge of childhood programming. The result is, as today, that I feel drained.

As I thought about this situation, I found it almost impossible to analyse in my mind how my energy left me. It was as though a veil had been drawn over the events. Similarly, I cannot remember the majority of my childhood.

I think that if I did not have the program I have described, I would not have felt drained after spending time with Sam today. I might have felt fed up with his rapid fire delivery, possibly somewhat irritated by his inane jokes.

This program in me creates a huge vulnerability, especially when I have been meditating and doing EE regularly. My practice created more energy in me, which, without the necessary self-knowledge, and vigilance born of that knowledge, I was unable to protect. When I realised this I was tempted to go back to see Sam so I could observe myself around him, but I decided not to in order to give myself time to recover. I left Sam at about 10am and it was not until the early afternoon that I felt back to normal. By that time I was too busy to visit Sam.

I do wonder if it is possible to protect oneself in that type of situation. Contact with Sam is unavoidable as it is a part of my job. The more that I think about it, the conclusion I keep coming back to is that knowledge protects. Now that I have knowledge of this internal program of mine, and I know what to look for, I can try to be more vigilant on the next occasion I spend any time with Sam.

Thank you for reading. Any comments and insights are most welcome.

 

[shijing]

Hi Endymion --

Well, speaking of vampires, reading your post made me think of a recent post on "sappers", which you may have already seen, but if not you might find it interesting. As a matter of fact, when I read it there was a certain acquaintance of mine whom I thought of immediately, and I've begun to observe this phenomenon at work with others more recently as well.

I don't know if that is what you are describing for sure, but it seems to fit -- I do think that it is good that you have identified the narcissistic dynamic that you describe above, because as you say, knowledge protects, and it sounds like you are applying the reading on narcissism that you've done to your own life which will help. It sounds like your intuition and your body are both telling you something, and it's unfortunate that you can't completely distance yourself from 'Sam', but in starting to observe this dynamic, I think you are already better off. Vigilance is key, and now you can start to think about how to begin some strategic enclosure, which could include things like making excuses not to stay with 'Sam' any longer than you have to, as you did in one way by discussing time off.

Other members may have other suggestions for you, but I hope that sharing here helps get you started in figuring out your strategy.

 

[Chopper]

Well done Endymion ! simplying by stepping back and seeing through" the veil/ mist / bs" now you should be "out in front" of it .

I't hard to get someone once thay can "see"..

congrats give yourself a cookie and smile ;)

 

[Ollie]

Hi Endymion,

I had a really intense experience yesterday morning which I would like to share. It involved childhood programs, an experience of 'energy draining' and a new insight into a childhood program. …
…
I was with Sam to learn from him and so as we walked round his 'patch' he talked about everything, virtually non-stop. His knowledge of his day-to-day business is excellent. Sam talks fifteen to the dozen, and I wanted him to stop and give me a breather, but, for my own future reference, I needed to hear what he was talking about. I didn't ask for the breather. We visited a few people, and on each occasion I felt like a little boy with his father, or, at least, with my father, who I experienced as emotionally distant and controlling. …
…
I felt drained of energy after my time with Sam. At first I thought that Sam was a vampire! However, I'm not so sure that this thought is all or even partly true, and not in any conscious sense on Sam's part. …

You may like to read, or more likely, re-read Chapter 5 of Unholy Hungers: Masculine Vampires and Masculine Victims. This may help, or not. The chapter is fresh in my mind as I was making notes from yesterday.

… We need to feel the shape of other people’s energy in order to balance our own. In a nonvampiric relationship, the balancing of energy is a mutual offering. If I need to feel the shape of your energy today in order to regain my balance, we both know that at other times I will willingly extend the shape of my energy to balance yours. In contrast, when a relationship is vampiric, one or both partners will recognize over time that the energy flow is fundamentally unequal. Ne person is extending himself far more than the other. Another difference is the degree of compassion with which the two members approach the relationship. In nonvampiric relationships, we balance each other’s energy with mutual concern for each other’s well being. In contrast, psychic vampires have no capacity to see the exploited person as anything more than an extension of themselves.

This cautionary note withstanding, it may seem from the preceding stories that nearly all relationships are vampiric, and that our yearning for love is doomed to deliver us into the vampire’s jaws. …

And, relating to your childhood,

If we have been victimized by vampires in our childhood, as Dorian Grey was, our shadow closet probably contains the feelings associated with not having been loved enough at some crucial point. To become conscious of these painful feelings, which usually include desperate longing, innocent love, and bottomless despair, would require us to relive the horror of the earlier time. The pain of such an experience cannot be comprehended; it felt like death before, and revisiting the experience will feel like psychic annihilation. What’s more, our shadow feelings often retain the primitive quality of their original form, which makes them capable of erasing any sense of control that we might have developed since their incarceration in the shadow closet. Therefore, most of us refuse to acknowledge any feelings that lives in our shadow unless it breaks free of our control and erupts into our external lives. When it does, we usually see the erupting shadow as awful evidence of our ‘real’ selves. This is unfortunate, since the shadow traits we detest are no more real than the persona traits we love. Nevertheless, we feel their ‘reality,’ ad in order to defend against our perceived terribleness, we blame others for our shadow eruptions by projecting the traits onto them. It is possible that Sam was functioning as an 'agent of the matrix', or indeed may be an unconscious vampire. However, other aspects of the program that arose in me were feelings of complete worthlessness, lack of valuing myself, and the desire – need, even – to give away my energy or life force. As a child I gave away my life force. You could say that I sold my soul to my narcissistic father. The little boy that I was had no conception that any other way existed, let alone that such might have been possible. And so I was left with the need to erase myself in order to please my daddy. This now manifests as the desire to give my life force at every available opportunity. I don't actually give it away, having learnt over the years how detrimental it is, but on certain occasions the impulse arises accompanied by a strong, virtually uncontrollable upsurge of childhood programming. The result is, as today, that I feel drained.

Moving on now to your 'reaction' and approach to the problem,

... Alice and I observed that when she and I talk together we can see the humour in the topic under discussion, mention it and even laugh about it, but this does not derail the conversation. In conversation with Sam his jokes do not relate to the topic under discussion, and have the effect of stopping the conversation dead in its tracks. We have both experienced this with him and find it rather frustrating, to the point that we both would rather not spend much time talking to him. I describe this because I find that one effect of talking to Sam is a sensation of always having the rug pulled out from under my feet. I can carry on with the topic of conversation but as it goes on, and Sam's jokes continue, my feeling of bewilderment grows. This is another thing my father did and today contributed to the arousal of my childhood program.

It would appear that you’ve approached the situation in the right manner.

The key is to approach the vampire as Perseus does –reflectively. … By engaging in reflective exercises, we can safely bring the light of our consciousness to bear on the monster we wish to deactivate, without looking her full in the face and risking petrification.

‘Sam’ may act as good ‘Petty Tyrant’ for you to practice on, possibly with the assistance of your colleague, ‘Alice’.

 

[mada85]

Hi Shijing, thanks so much for your reply.

Well, speaking of vampires, reading your post made me think of a recent post on "sappers", which you may have already seen, but if not you might find it interesting.

Interesting is rather the understatement! I had not seen that post before, and the excerpt from Breakthrough to Creativity is breathtakingly accurate.

Any individual who remains in the vicinity of the sapper for too long begins to feel desperately exhausted for no reason that he can understand. This baffles and bewilders him. Eventually a deep instinct of self-preservation causes the victim of the sapper to feel an irresistible desire to get away. He may attribute this to any one of a number of reasons. By the time this happens he is usually feeling an unreasoning irritation with the sapper.

This nicely describes all the feelings that I experienced with 'Sam' yesterday. I even for a few minutes entertained doing a 'kind of self-imposed penance' when I was tempted to go back to see Sam so I could observe myself around him. I'm really glad I didn't go back!

The sapper often seems to have a desire to touch the person whom he is draining of energy or else to be as near as possible to him. There is a whole group of sappers who drain other people in this way simply by being near them.

Sam always likes to give a pat on the shoulder when he says good-bye.

All this was pretty accurate but not 100% conclusive. And then I came to this paragraph, near the end:

A psychological evaluation of the sapper shows an individual who often speaks the language of altruism volubly. He will often talk a great deal about his concern and kindly interest in friends and acquaintances who are his victims. He will assure you that he would do anything for them, that they are wonderful people and they do him so much good. It requires some careful observation to realize that the sapper is nearly always extremely self-centered. He probably does not realize this himself, and he may be completely unaware of what he actually does to other people around him.

This clinched it. Sam is a Christian and works in the care sector which brings him into contact with a great many feeding opportunities. What is most interesting in light of Karagulla's description is that Sam's wife has cancer for which she has received treatment which leads me to wonder if the cancer developed as a result of Sam's draining her energy.

As to the 'sapping' method Sam uses, it's not voice: I can talk to him on the phone without feeling drained. It's not the staring technique either. I think he does it just by being around people. It's also something in his manner; his kind of forced but empty joviality which is difficult to be around. It's rather hard to explain how it works and I will have to observe carefully next time I am with him.

I don't think he's conscious of it. I think he unconsciously knows which people he can feed off, and when I come along, ready to give away my life force when the correct programs are triggered . . . well! What a feast . . . :(

I had to spend a short time with Sam this morning, and I was able to keep my distance, energetically speaking, but after a few minutes I felt the drain beginning again. I left him very soon after. I will definitely be reducing the amount of time I spend with him!

 

[mada85]

Well done Endymion ! simplying by stepping back and seeing through" the veil/ mist / bs" now you should be "out in front" of it .

I't hard to get someone once thay can "see"..

congrats give yourself a cookie and smile ;)

Hi Chopper. Thanks for your encouragement. I'd like to say, though, that in this case Sam's 'sapping' is a kind of unconscious vampirism. I think he really is unaware of what he does. I think that his image of himself is that of a helpful, altruistic, warm-hearted man. He might even be quite shocked to discover his effect on people.

Even though I had a much better idea of what I was dealing with, my experience with Sam today showed me that I could not protect myself from this kind of energy drain, except by leaving. Perhaps leaving is the only protection?

Anyway, the cookie was delicious!

 

[Psalehesost]

Even though I had a much better idea of what I was dealing with, my experience with Sam today showed me that I could not protect myself from this kind of energy drain, except by leaving. Perhaps leaving is the only protection?

I think one would be protected if one uprooted one's emotional programming and Predator's Mind, this changing one's FRV. Being of an STS orientation is what makes one 'edible', and the more one removes this nature, the less one will become food, I think. Eventually, one might end up outside of the 'range' that a given feeder can tune into.

Part from personal experience (where at one time I was unaware of feeding, then became aware, and eventually noticed I wasn't nearly as drained any longer when interacting with the person), I think it's possible to become immune to the 'small fry' ones.

Which is not to say that one will be immune to all feeding. That will only happen when one loses all STS nature, which is not possible while in 3D.

So, in short - there is no short-term solution besides leaving, I think - in time, with ongoing Work, you might however find that the situation slowly and gradually changes.

fwiw

 

[Nawd]

Do you think that your father was a sapper too, thus Sam reminding your of your father, or did it just seem to bring up a childhood program of wanting to be accepted?

The quotes about sappers are really helpful to me as well. It would explain why I felt like bolting everytime my boss entered the room to 'start up a conversation,' or the fear of the three hour meeting about pretty much nothing at all but self praise and how the company is growing every day and everything is just so awesome. High fives and 'fist bumps' all around. Everyone would leave feeling drained.

Hi Shijing, thanks so much for your reply.

Well, speaking of vampires, reading your post made me think of a recent post on "sappers", which you may have already seen, but if not you might find it interesting.

Interesting is rather the understatement! I had not seen that post before, and the excerpt from Breakthrough to Creativity is breathtakingly accurate.

Any individual who remains in the vicinity of the sapper for too long begins to feel desperately exhausted for no reason that he can understand. This baffles and bewilders him. Eventually a deep instinct of self-preservation causes the victim of the sapper to feel an irresistible desire to get away. He may attribute this to any one of a number of reasons. By the time this happens he is usually feeling an unreasoning irritation with the sapper.

This nicely describes all the feelings that I experienced with 'Sam' yesterday. I even for a few minutes entertained doing a 'kind of self-imposed penance' when I was tempted to go back to see Sam so I could observe myself around him. I'm really glad I didn't go back!

The sapper often seems to have a desire to touch the person whom he is draining of energy or else to be as near as possible to him. There is a whole group of sappers who drain other people in this way simply by being near them.

Sam always likes to give a pat on the shoulder when he says good-bye.

All this was pretty accurate but not 100% conclusive. And then I came to this paragraph, near the end:

A psychological evaluation of the sapper shows an individual who often speaks the language of altruism volubly. He will often talk a great deal about his concern and kindly interest in friends and acquaintances who are his victims. He will assure you that he would do anything for them, that they are wonderful people and they do him so much good. It requires some careful observation to realize that the sapper is nearly always extremely self-centered. He probably does not realize this himself, and he may be completely unaware of what he actually does to other people around him.

This clinched it. Sam is a Christian and works in the care sector which brings him into contact with a great many feeding opportunities. What is most interesting in light of Karagulla's description is that Sam's wife has cancer for which she has received treatment which leads me to wonder if the cancer developed as a result of Sam's draining her energy.

As to the 'sapping' method Sam uses, it's not voice: I can talk to him on the phone without feeling drained. It's not the staring technique either. I think he does it just by being around people. It's also something in his manner; his kind of forced but empty joviality which is difficult to be around. It's rather hard to explain how it works and I will have to observe carefully next time I am with him.

I don't think he's conscious of it. I think he unconsciously knows which people he can feed off, and when I come along, ready to give away my life force when the correct programs are triggered . . . well! What a feast . . . :(

I had to spend a short time with Sam this morning, and I was able to keep my distance, energetically speaking, but after a few minutes I felt the drain beginning again. I left him very soon after. I will definitely be reducing the amount of time I spend with him!

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=Endymion]I do wonder if it is possible to protect oneself in that type of situation[/quote]

If you find yourself in this situation again unprepared, you may tactfully try:

Crossing your arms at the level of the solar plexus (maybe with one extended to your chin as in the “thinker”)

Crossing your legs or ankles

Avoiding eye contact

Not speaking directly at him/her.

This can block access to the major centers vulnerable to the theft, and the sapper may wrap up the job related affairs and socially retreat.

 

[luke wilson]

Hi, when do you feel yourself being drained when you're around sam? Is it just when he is near your vicinity or is it when you are talking to him??

If it is the latter then, maybe you can stop the drainage of your energy if you change how you interact with sam. There are a couple of things that you dont seem to like about his personality. That is, his jokes and his jovial empty character... So, maybe if you changed your perception of him, if you do not commit so much of your being when you are interacting with him, then maybe you wont feel so drained. Like for example as you say, keep your contact time to a minimal and when you are interacting, approach it differently. Experiment and see if this changes how much you feel drained afterwards.

Maybe it is not that he is sucking your energy, it might just be because you have very different personalities that you usually end up feeling so drained after. The fact that you and 'alice' have experienced difficulties dealing with sam on a personality level might indicate that ok, sam might be weird, but just because he might be weird doesnt mean he is a vampire/sapper. Maybe sam talks alot/jovially/emptily and makes jokes that make no sense because well he is trying really hard to you know appear cool, appear on the level and such. You say he is a weighty person. Ok, so think about it. Growing up being weighty is not exactly ideal, so he might have had to develop this extra-character traits as an attempt to fit in, be part of the crowd, make up for this short-coming. Maybe in his attempts, he goes way overboard and becomes downright weird...

Maybe next time you are interacting with him, observe and see why he is acting that way... Maybe it is a programme for him. Maybe he has no control over it. Once it starts running, it has to run until either you walk away or the program ends... Watch and see... If you see this is a program, then ok you can then realize that maybe it is just a clash of personalities that leads to you exercising more energy trying to keep up with his program, a program that you might not had the experience of dealing with. What I mean by a clash of personalities is a clash of expectations. Maybe how he is, is beyond your expectation spectrum if I am to use that word. So you meet and interact with someone and it is a surprise because well you have got no way of dealing with this type of person because he falls outside this 'spectrum' and the drainage of energy might simply be, you trying to expand your own spectrum to include him, his type, in it! I say this because sam sounds like a good guy. Nuthing about him sounds malicious or negative from what you say. He simply sounds like a guy who is trying his best the only way he knows how to..


Just a different angle. (This is what I could come up with from the limited information I have about 'sam' and as the information is limited, I might be wrong so feel free to take what you need or ignore everything)

Another possible angle might be that sam is egocentric. You say he talked way to much and didnt give you a breather. Ok maybe because he likes the sound of his own voice.... In such a case, he might indeed be a sapper... In such a case best thing to do is avoid contact or keep it to a minimum.

 

[luke wilson]

I forgot to say that I think caution should be taken before we start to brand people - life is hardly ever black and white and as a result things might not tend to be what they appear. I think before you pass a judgement and execute a sentence on him, you should be next to 100% sure that your judgement is right based on very careful observation from more than one vantage point just to make sure the image you have is the right one. This is because I dont know, karma? this might be a lesson for you to learn and acting so swiftly without due consideration will result in failure of the lesson and who knows what consequences might arise from such a failure if any.. Also a case of external consideration should come into view. The last thing you want to do is start a situation where someone is being alienated because well, he doesnt fit our view.... By our view, I mean your view..

 

[shijing]

I forgot to say that I think caution should be taken before we start to brand people - life is hardly ever black and white and as a result things might not tend to be what they appear. I think before you pass a judgement and execute a sentence on him, you should be next to 100% sure that your judgement is right based on very careful observation from more than one vantage point just to make sure the image you have is the right one.

I think this is a good point, but there is also a difference between passing judgment and executing a sentence, and taking steps to merely protect yourself. The big issue seems to be preventing the energy drain that Endymion has noticed -- that is what is of key importance, I think, and I'm guessing that 'Sam' won't suffer from him trying to practice strategic enclosure in this situation since he is Endymion's superior. Endymion said that he has identified a program that causes him to want to 'sacrifice' himself in situations like this, so it's probably good practice for him to learn not to do this, and he can do it irregardless of the reasons why 'Sam' causes this energy drain (and I agree that if this is what happening, 'Sam' is likely not doing it intentionally). It's good to try to be objectively fair, but also good to remember that we have all been subjected to "make-nice" programming which in turn makes us good food.

FWIW, the "sapper" idea has been on my mind lately because my daughter and I have identified these warning signs in a relationship with one of her friends. My daughter had complained about always feeling worn out after a sleepover while her friend seemed to become increasingly energetic. I went through the main points of the "sapper" article with her, and she was taken aback at how well they described what happens and her feelings (including a big energy drain and displaced irritability) when she interacts with this particular friend. We talked about how if this is really the case, her friend probably has no idea what is going on, and isn't doing it intentionally. The solution we came up with was to put more concrete limits on the amount of time that they spend together, since the feeling of being drained of energy correlates with the amount of time spent together in any one instance. This doesn't punish the friend who might be an unconscious "sapper", but still helps to protect my daughter from being food.

 

[Mountain Crown]

Hi luke,

Endymion’s post shows care and a searching of self in response to a real and deleterious situation, not a spurious “branding” of anyone.

It’s a healthy desire to protect oneself from a potentially injurious person who also has the same effect on others.

Caution is in order with memes that are in the form of moral propositions, such as “branding people is wrong.”

There is right and wrong and the circumstances determining which is which.

 

[luke wilson]

The big issue seems to be preventing the energy drain that Endymion has noticed -- that is what is of key importance, I think, and I'm guessing that 'Sam' won't suffer from him trying to practice strategic enclosure in this situation since he is Endymion's superior. Endymion said that he has identified a program that causes him to want to 'sacrifice' himself in situations like this, so it's probably good practice for him to learn not to do this, and he can do it irregardless of the reasons why 'Sam' causes this energy drain (and I agree that if this is what happening, 'Sam' is likely not doing it intentionally). It's good to try to be objectively fair, but also good to remember that we have all been subjected to "make-nice" programming which in turn makes us good food.

I agree shijing. In a way Endymion can gain from this in that he has come face to face with the bolded program so he can try and work eliminating it. In this case, sam has proved useful to Endymion's development because without sam, he wouldnt have had this opportunity at this time. He should do whatever is necessary to prevent his energy from being surped. I was just making the point that his action shouldnt act negatively on sam as sam might be completely unaware and infact unable to control this quality he appears to have...

Very interesting this case of sappers. Vampires are aware of what they do. You can see from there actions, always luring there prey into a position to be fed on. This is done through conscious effort that can be seen by a 3rd party. However, a sapper is completely different phenomena from what I can see here. This are people who are unfortunate enough to have this quality without even there knowledge. They just suck peoples energy without any conscious effort from there part. It'd be very interesting to know the mechanics behind this..

Only by gaining knowledge about how this works can we find a way to protect ourselves from it. Otherwise we are just playing guesswork... Ok, minimise/remove contact. Good idea! Best Idea! For now! What happens when such an option doesnt exist??

Ok, a case of vampires, you can always neutralise them by knowing how they lure there prey and noticing the patterns. So you stop acting like prey then you wont become prey... A vampire can only feed on a willing/compliant prey... This is the image I got from whatever little I read about vampires... Please correct me if I am wrong! So similarly we can learn the same about sappers, build a defense against them that might not necessarily involve removing them from our vicinity as for them, it is not a conscious choice....

Anyways Endymion said he cannot avoid meeting/interacting with sam. So for him this is crucial...

 

[Mountain Crown]

[quote author=luke wilson]This is the image I got from whatever little I read about vampires[/quote]

Luke, what exactly have you read about vampires?

The distinction you made that sappers are unaware of being one and that vampires are aware, seems as a "convenient" construct.

Also, why do you think self protection from a sapper can't be done without removing them from the vicinity? Sappers take energy, there are ways to prevent that while being externally considerate.

Could it be you are making assumptions based on your own lack of relevant knowledge?