Interview with Naomi Wolf - about the martial law and coup. (04-10-2008)

Ooops! Naomi Wolf (Oct 1, 2008: "A coup took place")

Has SHE lost it, or are WE losing it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

Brad Sherman reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaG9d_4zij8

db
 
Re: Ooops! Naomi Wolf (Oct 1, 2008: "A coup took place")

Your point is rather unclear, durabone.  The Wolf interview was covered on the SotT page three days ago.  http://www.sott.net/articles/show/166972-Naomi-Wolf-Give-Me-Liberty-and-The-US-Coup-of-October-1-2008

Could you please clarify?  Why did you use the word 'Oops' in your thread title?   If you are familiar with Wolf's work, then the idea that she has 'lost it' makes little sense. Your thread has been merged with the original discussion. If you use the search function before posting, you can avoid posting about things already currently being discussed.
 
Yeah, sure (and thanks)

I'm not very good at searching for topics here yet.
Apologies. I will work on it. The move of my post is
appropriate, and I will be more cautious in the future.

I am however not surprised that SOTT is three days
ahead of me!

db

Okay, I see, there's a Help section!! I'll read it.

quoting from above:

"Very disturbing video. Naomi Wolf was shaking as she spoke. "

That's all I meant by my comment.
 
Since nothing I have said or done has
been "value added" for this thread (now
there's an oops!)

I offer this related article that I read yesterday:

"Secret Bush Admin Plan to Suspend US Constitution"

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0810/S00123.htm

(This time I did search the site for posts about the
author of this piece "Tom Burghardt," as I am not
sure who or what he is. "No results found".)

db
 
_http://www.opednews.com/articles/On-Naomi-Wolf-s-Sounding-t-by-Dr-Dennis-Loo-081011-878.html

October 12, 2008 at 00:46:22

Headlined on 10/12/08:
On Naomi Wolf's Sounding the Alarm

by Dr. Dennis Loo

www.opednews.com


Naomi Wolf is one of the brave voices. She warns in this video that a coup has taken place and that we have a small window of time within which to reverse things.

I agree with Ms. Wolf in most particulars but do see things in some respects quite differently. I will get to those differences at the end - I encourage you to read the links within this post as they elaborate much further on what's going on and why - but first, a short list of what I would describe as critical points along this sliding path to a police state.

As Wolf has pointed out in her book, The End of America, the initial stages of a "shift" contain fascist elements side-by-side with liberal democratic elements. This stage of co-existence can go on for some time, but sooner or later the fascist elements eat up the democratic ones. For those who aren't paying proper attention, in other words, day-to-day life can appear quite normal while the horrors build and build in the background.

Paying proper attention in our conditions means going outside of what the Democratic Party and the mass media are directing our attention to. Most people in this country aren't accustomed to doing this as they largely take their cues about what's going on and what they can and should do about it from the political leadership class.

But this is a terrible mistake in our case. Millions of people have got to step outside of the customary and into doing things that are outside their comfort zones. Being comfortable in one's political actions in times such as these will prove fatal.

1) The coup might be properly described as a rolling coup in that there have been distinct nodal points along the way, a description that I think Naomi would agree with (she has spoken of a "fascist shift.") The first nodal point was the surrender by Al Gore and the mass media in 2000 to Bush and Cheney's stealing the election. Gore could have, should have, and didn't, call for his supporters to march on the Supreme Court to demand that all the votes be counted. Once this election was allowed to be stolen in the open through the machinations of the Supremes, the die was cast for everything else that has followed.

2) The second nodal point was the USA PATRIOT Act's passage after 9/11 that gave unprecedented powers to the government to snoop and overrule core elements of civil liberties under the rubric of the unending "war on terror." The acceptance by the rest of the political leadership class of the "GWOT" has been absolutely critical to allowing the rampage of the Bush regime and their followers. It represents the foundation for a police state under any future president.

3) The third nodal point was the 2004 election being stolen - again in plain sight - with the Democratic Party and the mass media again permitting this to happen and refusing to investigate, let alone even mention, the mountains of evidence of fraud.

4) The fourth nodal point was the 2006 Military Commissions Act that abrogated habeas corpus and legalized torture.

5) The fifth nodal point was the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 that gave the president emergency powers.

6) The sixth nodal point was the Democrats' failure to defund the Iraq War and their withdrawal of language from a resolution that would have prevented an attack on Iran by Bush. In addition, in 2007 the Democratic majority in Congress also declared that they would not do anything about the eminently hackable voting machines until at least 2010, thus making a stolen election in 2008 a real possibility, indeed, a likelihood.

7) The seventh nodal point was the issuance of NSPD-51 and HSPD-20 that provided secret policies for the continuity of government (i.e., emergency powers/martial law). When Representative DeFazio was denied access to these procedures in July 2007 and the story wasn't covered by the mainstream press, the story was allowed to pass unremarked upon.

8) The eighth nodal point was on and after April 8, 2008 when Bush admitted approving torture and the rest of the US leadership class said nothing and did nothing when they should have called for and moved immediately for his removal from office.

9) The ninth nodal point was the surrender by the all-progressives' Minneapolis City Council to the police state by their green lighting in advance the fascistic measures seen in the streets of St. Paul and Minneapolis during the RNC and the failure of the mass media to give proper coverage to this clear evidence that free assembly and free speech were no longer to be respected. It reflected the coming home of "shock and awe," the use of the bogus claim of terror to crack down in pre-emptive attacks on American protestors, and the use of torture-lite on at least one protestor.

10) The tenth nodal point was the October 2008 knuckling under of Congress to the "sky is falling" claims by the White House demanding the $700 Billion bailout and the warnings to certain unnamed reluctant Representatives of martial law if they didn't vote for the bailout.

11) The eleventh nodal point was October 2008 Bush's ordering the day-to-day control by U.S. Army North, the Army component of Northern Command (NorthCom), of the 3rd Infantry Division’s 1st Brigade Combat Team who could and will be used to quell U.S. "civil disturbances."

Naomi Wolf speaks clearly and specifically to the last two items on this list in the video below.

* * *

Ms. Wolf calls for the coup conspirators' arrests by District Attorneys. While I would and do support such an action, I think that we need to be clear here on what exactly it's going to take to stem this ugly tide and turn things around. What force will it take to do this? It will take the collective actions of the masses of people in this country. Such a massive action of millions will not materialize as a single act. It is something that must be built for and our efforts need to be aimed at bringing this into being as soon as possible.

The first thing we have to realize, and I know that this is a hard truth for many to face, is that elections don't mean a damn thing in this context. Even if you believe that electing Obama is critical, the chances that the 2008 election will be stolen, as have the last two, is very real and very likely. The grounds for "explaining" such an outcome, "proving" the pre-elections' polls "wrong" again are already with us: the surreptitious white racist vote and the energized Christian fascist vote. How many times do we have to be slammed in the head with the hard reality that votes are easy to steal before we realize that putting all of your hopes into your vote isn't the way to go? Money donated to the Democrats is wasted money. Supporting Obama (or any other third-party candidate) at this point is not only a waste, it takes away from the desperately needed real work to mobilize millions as an independent political force to fundamentally alter the balance of forces in the society. Funneling people, energy and resources into the electoral arena when yet another stolen election is probable and when the Democrats have repeatedly, blatantly, and criminally colluded with the Bush Regime on all fronts is a crime. You don't fight against fascists by supporting the enablers of fascists.

Our energies need to go - on the level of everyday life - into mobilizing the independent actions of the people. This is what the spreading of orange ribbons and other forms of orange in everyday life means: the public declaration that we stand against torture and against imperialist wars and that we call for others to also publicly declare themselves until millions are doing this.

Some might say, what will having a lot of orange do? The gendarmes will just round up the orange people. What this view fails to understand is that politics is determined by a combination of what is in people's heads and the use of coercion. Coercion only works if those who are using the force aren't losing the battle for public opinion. If enough people - who DO represent the large majority - are acting in open and public ways that manifest the PEOPLE's sentiments and that DO reflect truth and justice, then clampdowns with police state actions will not bury the movement but will expose the fundamentally monstrous nature of those using it and spur on others to step forward and further isolate the relatively small numbers who are the enemies of the people. This is a dynamic that has characterized every revolution.

Rolling back the fascist assault must and can happen. We don't have a great deal of time. Forcing war criminal John Yoo out of his UC Berkeley Law Professorship is an important battle. It will be an important victory and open the door to turning the tide against the war criminals who run this country now. Shutting down military recruiters preying on our youth is another important battlefront in this fight to change the future that we see unfolding in real time before us. Support and defend the RNC-8. Donate your money and your time to an organization that has consistently fought for the necessity to rely upon and mobilize the people - the World Can't Wait.

Finally, I agree with Wolf's sense of urgency here. But it is crucial to understand that mobilization can occur under varying conditions and we are not doomed if we do not mobilize sufficient numbers in a certain time frame. If the coup conspirators aren't arrested within three months or so, in other words, they don't necessarily win. The sooner we mobilize the forces necessary, the better, and we don't have anytime to waste because Wolf is right about fascism in the making. But even after fascism is officially and openly in power, should this come to pass, this doesn't mean that the rebellion is doomed. We need to be on the one hand alarmed at what's going on, but we also have to guard against getting freaked out and then becoming paralyzed into inaction.
 
Re: Interview with Naomi Wolf - about the martial law and coup. (04-10-2008)

A question For Namaste: Why was a particular stanza left out of the quote below

[quote author=Namaste in SOTT article comment section]
"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
after all I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."
Martin Niemoller

It does look similar
[/quote]
 
Re: Interview with Naomi Wolf - about the martial law and coup. (04-10-2008)

Bluelamp said:
A question For Namaste: Why was a particular stanza left out of the quote below

[quote author=Namaste in SOTT article comment section]
"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
after all I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."
Martin Niemoller

It does look similar
[/quote]

I had taken the quotation in a post on the forum.

Could you tell me what stanza was left out?
 
Fwiw, there seems to be controversy over the origins and text of Neimoller's words. Here's what wikipedia has to say about it:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Controversy over origin and text

The poem was published in a 1955 book by Milton Mayer, They Thought They Were Free, based on interviews he'd conducted in Germany several years earlier. The quotation was widely circulated by social activists in the United States in the late 1960s. The poem's exact origin is unclear, and at least one historian has incorrectly suggested that the poem arose after Niemöller's death.[1] Recent research has traced the sentiments expressed in the poem to speeches given by Niemöller in 1946.[2] Nonetheless, the poem's wording remains controversial, both in terms of its provenance, and the substance and order of the groups that are mentioned in its many versions. While Niemöller's published 1946 speeches mention Communists, the incurably ill, Jews or Jehovah's Witnesses (depending on which speech), and people in occupied countries; the 1955 text, a paraphrase by a German professor in an interview, lists: Communists, Socialists, "the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on," and ends with "the Church." However, as cited by Richard John Neuhaus in the November 2001 issue of First Things, when "asked in 1971 about the correct version of the quote, Niemöller said he was not quite sure when he had said the famous words but, if people insist upon citing them, he preferred a version that listed "the Communists", "the trade unionists", "the Jews", and "me".
 
Black Swan said:
Fwiw, there seems to be controversy over the origins and text of Neimoller's words. Here's what wikipedia has to say about it:

unfortunately, the whole subject of the Jews (the holocaust, anti-semitism, the creation of Israel, Zionism, etc, etc...) is exactly the area where Wikipedia suddenly flips from generally detailed and accurate, to 'absolute lockdown' propaganda mode. So nothing can be trusted on Wikipedia which even has the slightest possibility of touching on any subject to do with Jews/Irael/Zionism.

Regarding the Neimoller quote, I think there are quite a lot of variations, and perhaps the original 'adjustments' were made for the same purpose as propaganda elsewhere: to accentuate the portrayal of Jewish victimhood in the holocaust, and to sideline the significance of other victims.
 
Nomad said:
unfortunately, the whole subject of the Jews (the holocaust, anti-semitism, the creation of Israel, Zionism, etc, etc...) is exactly the area where Wikipedia suddenly flips from generally detailed and accurate, to 'absolute lockdown' propaganda mode. So nothing can be trusted on Wikipedia which even has the slightest possibility of touching on any subject to do with Jews/Irael/Zionism.

Ah, thanks for pointing out that bias, Nomad. The article does however, point out that there are quite a few variations of Neimoller's words which were drawn from speeches he made in 1946. No doubt the version one chooses might reflect the biases and sympathy one has to a certain group.

Fwiw, Harold Marcuse, a professor of German history a the University of California, Santa Barbara since 1992 and whose research specialization is the public reception of the Nazi period in Germany after 1945 has written this after researching the topic:

Marcuse said:
I am often asked "What is the correct sequence and groups in the quotation?"
Here is my March 2006 answer to one of those queries:

There are in fact several "correct" versions. Niemöller named different groups when he first coined the saying, probably in 1946, than when it was revived in the 1970s and he was again asked about it.
The groups he mentioned in several 1946 speeches were (in order, see below):
Communists
Incurably sick
Jews or Jehovah's Witnesses (depending on which speech)
People in countries occupied by Nazi Germany.
In 1976 Niemöller was asked about the quotation in an interview. The Martin Niemoeller Foundation in Germany takes his 1976 answer to be definitive [see: _http://www.martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de/4/daszitat>]. In his long answer Niemoeller mentioned the following groups, and claimed that he started using the quotation only recently (at a 1974 event) :
Communists
Trade Unions
Social Democrats
Jews (sort of).

I don't think that that 1976 statement reflects what Niemöller had said in the 1940s--he was 84 years old, and he might have forgotten that he had used it in speeches more than 30 years earlier. The first documented reference to the precise quotation that I know of is in a book first published in 1955, which is based on interviews conducted some time between 1950 and 1954. In this case it is likely that the interviewee added his own groups, namely "schools" and "the press." In any case, researcher/author Milton Mayer quotes a German professor he interviewed who refered to Niemöller having said:

Communists
Socialists
schools
the press
Jews
the Church (see Mayer, below for full citation)

The next major published version of the quotation can be found in the 1968 Congressional Record (see below). Howard Samuels, an official from a business organization, was testifying before Congress. He explicitly referred to Niemöller as the originator. I am quite sure that Samuels excluded and included certain groups to suit his own business agenda. In my opinion, Niemöller would not have named Catholics or industrialists at all. In 1968 Samuels named the following groups:

Jews
Catholics
Industrialists/Trade Unions
Protestant Church.

Thus the quotation was clearly well known long before 1974, when Niemöller in 1976 claimed to have first said it. Whether you want to take the 1946 not-quite-polished versions, the 1955 published version (to which the secondhand author probably added his own groups), or the 1976 erroneous memory by Niemöller himself as the "correct" version, is up to you.

_http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/niem.htm
 
Re: Interview with Naomi Wolf - about the martial law and coup. (04-10-2008)

Namaste said:
I had taken the quotation in a post on the forum.

Could you tell me what stanza was left out?

It was the stanza about Jews. The question came up in another forum where I occasionally provide links to SOTT articles. It was an "apocalypse" topic and someone had brought up Naomi Wolf books so I provided a link to the SOTT article with the Wolf video and your comment leaving out the Jews was noticed. Perhaps it is related to the information Black Swan provided that says "Jews (sort of)".
 
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