Investment in food production - co-operative???

[Renaissance]

Hey Mikel, I had similar thoughts as Gawan about investing in canning food. I think the farming route is also a potentially good idea, particularly if you can work to build a local community geared in this direction. But for more security, canning is a good focus. With earth changes upon us, farms may experience a lot of hardship which could include the loss of animal life. It could be a good thing to get into, but I think having a primary focus on canning makes a lot of sense.

 

[Gwenllian]

Mikel, FWIW. Maybe you could make contact with the people from Pure Graze (grassfarming) in The Netherlands. It is a network of about 50 farmers that raise pigs, cows and hens based on the ideas of Joel Salatin who was here a couple of days ago!

_http://www.puregraze.com/agrarier.html

_https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROsBdnMwQMs

The animals get a kind of "salad" (a mixture of all kinds of plants) which keeps them healthy, no antibiotics.
Maybe you could organise evenings or afternoons where you could discuss JS' lectures.
I buy my meat from a Pure Graze outlet and the meat is wonderful and yet cheaper. Food is expensive in Holland, as you probably know, but just to compare; I pay about 9.50 euros for one kilo of sausage. If I buy it from an organic shop I pay five euros more per kilo.
I also buy pork from a farmer in my village. She works on her own and has no network. She also grows grains and beets which she feeds the pigs. I sent her the JS videos the other day and she wasn't aware of them!
I would definitely go and talk to farmers as was suggested when you buy your meat for canning for instance. Make friends with them as Larry suggested in his article :):

http://www.sott.net/article/278956-Are-you-prepping-your-diet

It is a good idea to search out local farms that specialize in healthy animal products. Visit them face to face, buy some products, and get to know them. If disaster strikes, you will know where to get fresh product, and you will likely be recognized as a good customer. In tough times, you may also be able to offer some help.

 

[Lindenlea]

There's something similar happening in Australia on organic produce. Not sure if its for meat but could follow the same / similar model. _http://www.organicfarmshare.com

Thanks for posting this Alkhemst, I've just listened to the presentation and I'm very interested, seeing as I'm their catchment area, the Northern Rivers - good old hippyville, the people here are fantastically organic thinking and very much into 'make and grow your own' and look after the community.

In fact they've just won a major milestone with one of the fracking companies, when they march and protest they do it to the bitter end it appears they have hassled Metgasco into submission - someone said they'd gone broke with all the delays from the protesters at their gates day and night.

 

[Michal]

Wow! Thanks guys for links and opinions!

For the time being I have checked more about co-op thing in Polish reality and my first idea is ruined. There are no fiscal benefits for co-op members even if this one is operating non-profit. If member receives some provision, in my idea it was meat, it must be taxed. Only exception is made to religious organizations (churches), political organizations and some other organizations as it comes to VAT and charity donations (personal income tax).

Taxes!!! Terrible. So tax is rather hard to avoid unfortunately.

I will dig some more for pricing difference between profit company and non-profit.

Mariama - great. This will be next on my list to check. Very interesting thing. Real Salatinos :). I want to talk to them.

I will try also make a poll among my known meat retailers. What do they think about organizing themselves and what do they expect from market or local society.

 

[Martina]

Hi.
Thanks for posting this. I've read it kind of quickly, I'm bothered with the same things. I have nothing :).
I was also thinking of getting a pig, or start canning things, but I wanted to do it with someone. It would be cheaper and more fun, but I don't know who to ask yet. Well I'll rethink and post an idea later

 

[Michal]

Czesc
I have checked another thing. My idea for contracting pigs to farmers who just take care of pigs is not only my idea - big producers already are doing it on quite a big scale which I found out few days ago on pigs raising internet forum.
Thing is that big companies are giving little money to farmers for pigs. For one pig approx. 10 eur. So if farmer has facility to rais several hunreds of pigs this is then nice money but for small farmers this willl not be enough to concentrate only on pigs.

Do we have farmers here on the forum? I need to talk about practical issues and pricing.

 

[Michal]

Hi guys,

I am looking for people from Poland (because that is the place I know the most) who would like to join and help organize consumers group.
(There is other option which I was not considering seriously is to create European Co-op which may unite people from EU in general however this I was not even researching so I do not know.)

This is first step in my opinion to start.

But You may ask why is it important to start it at all?

I think that this is creating our own reality. This is telling the market what we want. This is educating farmers about needs that are not seen today. This is not waiting for action of others but taking initiative in our own hands.

Are we able now to buy meat free from antibiotics, hormones, vaccines, fed as mother nature wanted without grains, without fodders which we do not have control over - coming from huge corporations that we are not able to check and find out whether they use GMO or not? Are our farmers feeding pigs, cows by GMO fodders? Do we know that? What we see is only packaged meat in the supermarket and we have no idea how was that fed.

How about the fat for ketogenic diet? I am buying from different sources and I am not sure what is there. We know that there is a difference in composition of fat in grass-fed and non-grass-fed. Do we know how much more PUFAs omega 6 and 9 are in fat fed by grains? What about GMO and its influence on fat composition? What about antibiotics or other factors like toxins which may be stored in fatty tissue? I mean, don't we want to have control over this things? ... I want.

Yep there is an option to buy organic meat here and there although such options in Poland are limited and when I buy meat from far away location it means the same thing for me - I do not have control over my plate, my food. I heard stories about bio - organic production and unfortunately this is not always what we would like to have. Pesticides, herbicides are allowed to some extent and even if officially limited, certificate once issued is not preventing people from cheating.

Do we have any control over the price of our food? Maybe it is also possible? Who knows?
What will happen if I am wrong, if we are wrong and invest money and effort in creating organization of consumers?

And what is that investment I am talking about? This is not big money. You are able to do it.
I want us (those who join) to buy pigs, not raise them but own them. This is my food so main idea is that first we take care about our needs. We will invest in our food and we will eat it. External sale is possible and of course I am thinking about it but it is some further stage. Finding correct people to do it for us is extremely crucial but this is second stage. First is to organize ourselves to make farmers believe that it is real need that it is worth it.
I have a lot of ideas but this one mentioned is I think the most important first step. Without it I do not think that we may go anywhere except hoping that somebody will do it finally and we will have what we wanted. Let's help our hope :)

For the beginning I just want to know if You eat what You want? If so then it is not for You. But if You are looking for food You want but cannot find it then I think that we are in similar situation.

Digression:
Yesterday we've been visited by our friends. My colleague from the same technical university we have been studying came also. Recently he told me about his career during the time we have not seen each other and his involvement in agro business (we are both engineers). So when they came we immediately started to talk about situation of agriculture in Poland and Europe, about farming about my idea of creating consumers group and about good meat on the market. He came just in time of my brainstorming so I was really happy that we could talk. He inspired me to take on some more research with people he knew and helped me understand mentality of farmers in Poland (stereo types mainly but some mechanisms are interesting). His visit I took as a sign that there are people who are coming to contribute when there is a cry for help sent to information field.

This week I have in plan to talk to the guys from Pure Graze suggested by Mariama (thanks Mariama! :)) and discuss unexpected possibility of having this idea supported by person who is willing to invest some money in it. Well let's see.

What will happen if it all fails? ...
What will happen if it all works?...

 

[Renaissance]

Hey Mikel, I think what you're suggesting might be better to try out on a local level than with cass forum members in Poland. Using the forum for the independent organizing of get-togethers, personal projects and such hasn't been recommended for a number of reasons, safety being a big one. And there can be lots to lose (relationships, resources, time and energy) with a business type venture.

That said, if you're really into this food production idea, I think you should test it out. I've found it's extraordinarily easy to develop narratives of things we have to do to make something work (like establishing a group of people before introducing the idea to a farm), when in fact it's usually the effort and experience of doing something that teaches us what needs to be done.

 

[Sol Logos]

There's something similar happening in Australia on organic produce. Not sure if its for meat but could follow the same / similar model. _http://www.organicfarmshare.com

Thanks for posting this Alkhemst, I've just listened to the presentation and I'm very interested, seeing as I'm their catchment area, the Northern Rivers - good old hippyville, the people here are fantastically organic thinking and very much into 'make and grow your own' and look after the community.

In fact they've just won a major milestone with one of the fracking companies, when they march and protest they do it to the bitter end it appears they have hassled Metgasco into submission - someone said they'd gone broke with all the delays from the protesters at their gates day and night.

Yeah I heard about that, I reckon in addition to the protests there's a few strong community groups in the region that are well versed at law - adding further pressure too. I'm glad you found the farmshare of interest, would be for me too but I'm all the way down in Sydney..

 

[rrraven]

I have bred pigs its very rewarding they are such sweet natured(mostly)animals

-http://www.australianpigfarmers.com.au/online_pig_training_course

this site will give you a lot of info on pigs
Pasture

Free range pigs will not be productive or capable of producing a marketable carcass on pasture alone. No one feed source can adequately provide all the nutrition your animals need to remain in good health and condition.

While pigs do enjoy pasture and it does form an important part of their diet, remember that pigs are omnivores and scavengers by nature and would not limit their diet to grasses in the wild. Pasture alone also provides too much fibre for pigs, too much especially for young pigs that just do not have the gut capacity to eat enough to get much nutrition from it.

Pasture quality in Australia is also highly variable and affected by weather extremes and climate making it an unreliable feed source at times.

Sows on good quality pasture, either native or sown cereal or forage grasses, will make good use of it as feed allowing you to reduce your overall feed bill considerably.

even free range pigs are still fed grains!!!!

finding a bio (dynamic ) farmer may be your best bet since demeter grain is GMO free

here are some links to lard pigs:

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangalitsa

-https://www.mangalitsa.com/

-http://www.pigparadise.com/curly.html

pig that tweets-https://twitter.com/TassieWoollyPig

 

[Michal]

Hi guys,

Thanks for replies.
Rrraven - great! More things for me to dig into.
I did not know that pigs need to be fed grains. I will research on that more. Thank You for link for the course! and other links also!

Good. I need to cool down and do it step by step.

I have now made folder for my research and project.
All links from: Aiming, Alkhemst, LQB, Mariama, rrraven - thank You.
For all advices and suggestions: Aragorn, Gawan, kanader, Renaissance - thank You.

Lindenlea and Martina - I see Your interest and it gives me good feeling.

I am going back to work.

 

[Corvus]

I have checked another thing. My idea for contracting pigs to farmers who just take care of pigs is not only my idea - big producers already are doing it on quite a big scale which I found out few days ago on pigs raising internet forum.
Thing is that big companies are giving little money to farmers for pigs. For one pig approx. 10 eur. So if farmer has facility to rais several hunreds of pigs this is then nice money but for small farmers this willl not be enough to concentrate only on pigs.

It all goes to how much do you trust that person because when the chaos ensues I think you will be left without any, so it is waste of money because no one will stop them for claiming those pigs for themselves that is if they will have means to keep them from willing others. Canning or buying canned or dried meat food is more productive as said.

 

[SMM]

Wanted to chime in and say thanks for starting this topic Mikel! It's an important subject that has been on my mind too, regarding quality of meat, community/marketing and getting information out and canning, preparing for whatever comes our way.

The links and advice given are very useful and I've only spent 15 minutes browsing them.

 

[Goemon_]

I did not know that pigs need to be fed grains. I will research on that more. Thank You for link for the course! and other links also!

_http://www.mabonneviande.com/charcuterie-iberique/166-epaule-iberique-bellota-esp.html : this french website sell parts of Bellota pigs. Here is what they say about feeding : "Composite Food then fattening in with acorn at the time of the pasture up to the butchery."

I think I remember Joel Salatin explaining that he puts the pigs in the wood for some period of time and alternate with grass and fodder.

My2cents

 

[Michal]

Hi,
Little update.

I have been talking to my first recommended farmer today.
I will meet him next week while we will be visiting our family in Poland. One of our best friends is working in chamber of agriculture and knows quite a lot of people in her area. So she recommended me one guy who she knew. I said that I want to talk with good person, serious and ready for experiment. Unfortunately he himself is now engaged in beef cattle but told me some interesting things about production and practical issues:
1. Food for pigs need to planned in advance. Buying piglets is not the first step. First step is to organize food supply and of course "housing" for pigs.
2. A lot of people are keeping pigs for themselves, not for sale. And he is also doing it.
3. There is big supply of soy for farmers due to protein it contains and it is being used he claims in most of farms. GMO!!!

Today my wife found some other interesting materials about special breads of pigs that are currently almost extinct and European union is supporting programs to restore this old genetic lines. There is such a program for three breads of pigs in Poland also. I have so much material to go through now that I am already sorry for myself :). Anyway I am getting closer to practical issues and technology. Program restoring this old genetic lines is quite interesting because it makes production much more profitable due to subventions.

After next week meeting I will know more about people who may participate. I am planning to buy few pigs for the beginning and let farmers raise them. My recommended farmer told me that it is possible in his area to organize suitable forrage and he also said that when farmers are paid more than in common buying ( Polish: skup żywca wieprzowego?) then of course their motivation is much higher. :)

What he explained about raising pigs is that I realized to changing farmers thinking about "how to raise pigs" will be rather challenging. They all are suspicious about GMO, BUT still using it because it is cheap. :( . As I understood they know that "close to nature" is important but I am not sure how is their awareness about antibiotics in forrages. My farmer was well aware about antibiotics inside forrages and also aware that it is important to minimize it.

After conversation my conclusion is:
Good meat is for farmers and their families. They are able to do it but there is no visible market demand for quality meat and a lot of farmers even if they have capacity are not doing it because they do not see consumers who want to buy it for price which would be beneficial for them.

Grass fed pork? Well this topic is not for the moment in my opinion possible. I have seen on Ted Slankers page that he is offering grass fed pork so looks like it is possible. But maybe it is easier and more realistic to start with maybe three major things:
1. Non GMO forrage
2. No antibiotics
3. Organic farm - free range (not a factory farm)

Topic which I have not touched yet is trading meat. But if first step clicks then there will be approx. 1.5 to 2 years time to prepare this one until pigs would be grown ups.

Aha and maybe some advices on legal form of venture???
I was thinking first about co-op. Idea is good but in first step will not be I think possible to organize that much people to create it (5 farmers for agri co-op and 20 for for example consumers co-op). I do not believe that it is difficult but maybe not for a first step. I do not know.

Any advices welcome.

PS. To plan something for 2 years from now looks for me now quite bold a concept but who knows what the future will bring?
PS2. Thanks again for all the links You all posted in this thread. I have now the list of all of them and going systematically one by one. Damn lot of reading :). Hopefuly this week I will take on-line course Mariama sent link to. Thanks