Inward Observation with simultaneous Outward Observation.

[edgitarra]

Could it be that this feeling of awe is part of the higher emotional center and in this moment of awe your lower intellectual center stops. I know that when I get this feeling of awe feeling of emotion my energy is shifted from behind my eyes/in my head to my chest stomach area and then I come back to my head with more balance and realize what I was thinking about before this reaction happened was most likely lower intellectual center

It could be very possible. I am also having the intellectual center stopping. The mind is becoming totally calm, there are no more thoughts.

 

[Menna]

One thing that I am not clear on is an example of lower and higher mechanical center. I can feel and understand and provide examples of lower and higher emotional/intellectual center but cant think of an objective example of the lower and higher mechanical center. Any advice is welcomed. Thanks

 

[Anthony]

There is no higher mechanical/moving center.

The moving center is divided into positive and negative side
each containing an intellectual, emotional, and pure moving side.

An example of intellectual moving center would be when you calculate
the distance between yourself and an object. Or when your trying to catch
an object someone throws at you.

 

[whitecoast]

One thing that I am not clear on is an example of lower and higher mechanical center. I can feel and understand and provide examples of lower and higher emotional/intellectual center but cant think of an objective example of the lower and higher mechanical center. Any advice is welcomed. Thanks

Hi Menna.

The higher instinctive center is actually described as the sex/creative center in ISOTM, and it is considered to be the indivisible, neutralizing component of the instinctive triad. The most basic example I can think of is two people who are sexually attracted/compatible having sex and producing a child from the interaction. The sexual center recruits and mobilizes the lower instinctive center to bring about and facilitates the sex center's creative powers. The sex center differs from other higher centers in that it's all about manifesting physically, rather than perceiving truth in symbols or directly (which is what the higher emotional and mental center do respectively, according to Mouravieff). Without the grounding of the other higher centers, the energy of sex/creativity is subsumed entirely under the general law, which is why Gurdjieff says that procreation and transmutation (i.e. using the creative energy with input from the higher emotional center) are the only useful activities the sex center does from a work perspective. Anything else is sex abuse, or misuse of sexual or creative energy.

 

[Menna]

Ok thanks looks like I need to gain more knowledge about the sex center I feel like I don't know enough about it

 

[Wisteria]

Could it be possible that this chest breathing is also a consequence of living in a world of competition and power-thirst were people tend to show off their "chests" meaning they show power and authority? Maybe I am just babbling but at least I could see this at home when gypsies were coming around to look for fights. They would show up their chests and try to impose their strength and superiority.

That, and also it being very uncool to have a "belly" - six-packs are what everyone is aiming for, and that precludes belly breathing almost automatically.

When I was encouraging one of my clients to practice belly breathing and informing her of its many and varied benefits, she responded by saying, "but chest breathing makes your boobs look better!" The physical often takes precedence over everything else in this reality.

 

[Faith]

Hello everyone :)

This is an interesting thread, very impressive how some of you have observed the different centers in such a great detail.

I believe I do this inward outward shifting only when I go outside and take a walk, moving from A to B to C. Then I realize more easily that I tend to constantly think about things, that trouble me, that follow me wherever I go, emotionally charged thought processes, that won't let me go. Being outside seems to enhance the contrast between my inner world and the outer reality, which makes it easier to feel the discrepancy. I know I could be way more aware of the surroundings and it troubles me to sleep walk like that. So every now and then, when I'm feeling quite detached from everything outside, and on the other hand quite obsessed with something else, I try to force my focus on the here and now, everything that surrounds me. And it helps to unidentify with certain thoughts and feelings, to stop being that abcent minded. So Taking a walk has become a tool for me.

But I've never done it in the way it is described here, to remember shifting/ duplicating the focus, whenever your feelings and thoughts dominate everything, no matter in what situation you find yourself in. Next time I feel angry, depressed, embarrassed or whatever I try to remember this exercise and pause for a moment to just listen to my body and everything that is around. No matter how bad and onesided the situation may seem, there is more! I must remember that!

Here is another observation I have made. It may be related to this exercise in some way. Every Wednesday I take dancing lessons. It's a great opportunity to meet new people, and in my case women, because no matter if you bring your partner with you, every 5 minutes you have to change partner, so that you can learn to dance with different body types and personalities. So for a guy who has not that much experience with girls this is quite a leap into the unknown! One day I was feeling extremely depressed after work and I couldn't imagine going to that dancing course. I was completely immersed in a downward spiral, feeling guilty, ashamed, intimidated and what not. But I went anyway, because by now I know it's better to experience something outside then sitting at home alone and being surrounded by my thought kermis. As soon as I was in there all of a sudden my sorrows were gone, because my focus was forced to the outside world. I had not enough time to think about anything, just... react and interact and improvise. I was in a flee-forward mode, no time for fear of contact! I felt and acted differently, as if I could escape my false and troubled self by leaving it no time, like stunning it with a sensory overload. Afterwards I felt quite relieved and I was able to look at my "grim" situation calmly and it didn't feel so grim anymore.

 

[Menna]

Then I realize more easily that I tend to constantly think about things, that trouble me, that follow me wherever I go

One day I was feeling extremely depressed after work

This thinking about things, feeling depressed is triggered by something. When doing this exercise I feel its important to try and remember what you were thinking about before the mental activity has dropped write it down and at a later time look deeper into this thought/feeling when did it start that day? Why did it start that day? is it something that you are constantly writing down before the drop? Knowing youself, reading information about co deprendency and narcassism is a great way to find out where and why these negative thoughts "programs" are running in our head.

emotionally charged thought processes, that won't let me go.

I would think of it as you won't let them go because you have the power to let them go. Also sometimes you might not want to let them go sometimes you can learn from the emotionally charged thought process. Negative to figure out the positive. Conciouse Suffering as G talks about.

You also talk about being in nature and how it helps. I have read Robert Monroe's books and I know that the CIA has had its hands in his material as mentioned on the site here so who knows what is truth and what isn't but something that he said that rang true in me was that "Nature is the missing basic" so it is important in ones life. Also something as simple as a plant in a room or music playing from a stereo can serve as an impression that takes you away from inside your head to the outside reality. Now the dancing taking you away from your depressed mood there are so many impression in class you say you like going because there are women there so im sure that alone gives you energy. If you notice sometimes interacting with ohters can be draining or uplifting it affects our energy in a number of ways. Plus endorphins being released from the physical activity. Physical activity is not only positive for our physical health but also mental

 

[Faith]

This thinking about things, feeling depressed is triggered by something. When doing this exercise I feel its important to try and remember what you were thinking about before the mental activity has dropped write it down and at a later time look deeper into this thought/feeling when did it start that day? Why did it start that day? is it something that you are constantly writing down before the drop? Knowing youself, reading information about co deprendency and narcassism is a great way to find out where and why these negative thoughts "programs" are running in our head.

That's exactly what I did. Within the last view weeks I wrote down my feelings and thoughts in order to be more aware of what I feel. This specific feeling of being depressed that day is definitely something I write down constantly and since I've read a few books about narcissism, I can now see the connection. Thank you for mentioning it. In the last few days something started to emerge in my mind, what could be the reason for this pattern, but it hasn't been clear to me yet. Today I talked to my therapist about it and now I know the reason. It all fits together like a puzzle. It has something to do with my tendency to please people and my difficulty to separate myself from others. I am afraid of hurting, irritating or disappointing my counterpart and being rejected by him/her.

:/ In this case I was afraid of disappointing my colleagues. It's a games company and I work in the graphics department. I really like my colleagues. They are very kind and considerate people. But I feel that I am not that enthusiastic and passionate about games and playing games as they are. To me it's a job I do for money in order to sustain myself. They are really, really talented and experienced. So they have both: a passion for games and enormous skills. I on the other hand have no passion for games and I am not that skilled. So there are many situations when I experience feelings of insufficiency. I fear that they might discover that I am not good enough. I may disappoint them one day. They may have a wrong picture of me, overestimating me. So I'm constantly doing the best I can to go with the black ravens although I am a white raven. I try to hide my white feathers if I can. I don't feel all right being the white raven. To fit in perfectly, to be the good boy is something I've learned at home. It's the way I grew up in my covertly narcissistic family. When there was carnival I had to wear a fools costume, that my mother had needled together with her whole heart and soul, so it would be quite selfish of me if I actually wanted to go as a cowboy. I was ashamed when I met my armed friends. Then I had to wear a bunny-costume, she had made for mm... herself. So at least my friends had something to shoot at. OR I had to wear short leather trousers, you know, like a boy from the alps, because I looked so damn cute in those trousers! Being the good boy to please mom is a constant projection that makes me fearful and paranoid, that makes me denying myself on various occasions. I have difficulties to make decisions, which are in my own interest. In order to be a good boy I'm constantly wriggling like a worm. That's a huge drain on my energy. That might be another reason why I am so easily exhausted. But my therapist encouraged me to be more irritating. She is the one who called me the white Raven. It's just an example for being different but also interesting, something I have to get used to. That I am not like them is also interesting.

This is something I have touched on a few occasions but it has never been a constant realization. It has been something that easily thinks into oblivion. So I need to practice it much more.

The difficulty of separating myself from others also reminds me of the hedgehog family I discovered a few month before I left the family stronghold (and it took me long time to be ready to leave my nest). They had built a nest outside in the garden. The little ones had a hard time with the family dogs. One had an encounter, in which it was injured. Mother and I intervened. Fortunately it wasn't that bad. She put it back to it's nest. A few weeks later the hedgehog mother left once again to get some food. But this time the little ones seem to follow one by one. I caught it on video. One of the siblings had the courage to follow her, another one was too shy and returned home. It wasn't ready yet. I strongly suspect that it's the one that got hurt. But I was sure it would leave it's nest one day. It just needed a little more time. It was all about growing up, a lesson I could learn from nature that day. Observing those hedgehogs had quite an impact on me. Later my therapist told me that these animals are very sensitive beneath their prickles, that they must learn to get in touch and interact with each other without to hurt anyone. They encouraged me to leave my nest. And they also encourage me now to be true to myself, true to my prickles. I will never forget this hint from nature. Even now it brings tears to my eyes.

I think I will replace my avatar picture with a picture of a hedgehog to allways remind myself :P Thanks for this helpful thread.

 

[Menna]

Do you practice EE?...I wouldn't get caught up in labeling yourself white raven or hedgehog your you and you will be changing...To label yourself I'm this I'm that is identification that "G" talks about this identification can make growth harder. I'm sure at your job there are certain things that you do better then others and others better then you. Once this thought process starts of I'm not skilled I'm not this or that do some pipe breathing it will calm you down so you can think clearer and balanced...Don't blame your mother too much the majority of parents feel that their children are an extension of themselves how they look I look...It's good you have all this info and tools to grow...The labeling of white raven and headgehog has an essence of pity behind it that's a bumpy road to follow

 

[Faith]

I do practice EE, but not enough, I guess. I do the whole program once a week and every night before I fall asleep I do only pipe breathing.

I see that identifying with these images of a white raven or the anxious hedgehog can be problematic. It's tempting. Maybe I got a little carried away, when I was writing down my line of thought yesterday... wouldn't have been the first time! But I think what my therapist was trying to tell me is this: Whenever I enter a group of people, who have something in common I do not share, it makes me realize that I'm different. And since feeling different makes me uncomfortable, she tried to help me see, that there is no reason for feeling insufficient in that situation, on the contrary... She wanted me to acknowledge my own value as something permanent, no matter if it's approved or disapproved by a person or a group.

What I've written is quite one-sided. It's not just my mother and it's not just about the costumes I had to wear. There is much more. It's much more complicated than that. I got carried away when i wrote this. If someone asked me if I blamed my mother for all the difficulties I have, I'd say no, of course not. It's not about blame anyway. I try to understand the dynamics that had an impact on me. But maybe there is something about my mother, that bothers me lately... I have to think about that. Anyway... that doesn't belong in this thread.

 

[Menna]

You not sharing a common interest with a group or a person not sharing a common interest with you is all part of life now the mental thought loop of all that extra junk I'm not good enough they are going to see I don't have the same interest something negative is going to happen now these though loops are called programs Laura has a great post about programs in a section here on the forum these program come from traumatic situation in childhood maybe even teenage yrs/young adult...These situation are different for everyone and one might be more sensitive then the other so each situation effects the individual child DIFFERENTLY I capsulized different because I doubt there is anyone on earth that is above the age of 20 that doesn't have one program or different "I"s as "G" puts it so you see we are all differently the same.

The reason I ask about EE is because I feel the thought loops of being less then or negative consequence and the parent are in a way related the FULL EE program has helped me surface what has been buried for me that coupled with understanding the program through knowledge here on the forum has helped me get rid of the junk.

The only energy I would spend thinking about the parent is to discover where the trauma program started everything else is just complaining or justifying what happened happened now ur in a position to grow positively for yourself

I am editing this post to say this and I feel this is an important mindset to have...It's not about who traumatized us its about this opportunity that everyone here has to better themselves and work to grow to find this site receive help information and exercises and to be able to identify where negativity happened in your life and work past it is a privilege 99% of humans have been wounded in some way few get a chance to heal their wounds so when working at this and coming across someone like a parent who has had a negative impact in one way or another realize that it's life

 

[mkrnhr]

Hi Menna,
It would be considerate if you used some punctuation in your posts ;)

 

[Menna]

Will do

 

[Faith]

Then you switch to the emotional side, sensing your gut feelings, the affects you're going through--stripped of mental content as much as possible--, and possibly the feelings others around you engender.

I'm focusing on my gut feelings right now and I'm not sure what I'm feeling. I'd say there is allways something but I can't tell what it means. It's kind of diffuse. If a thought occurs that reminds me of something, let's say, "unpleasant", or "pleasant" I experience a peak that I can label with a word easily. I wonder if there are allways emotions and I just can't distinguish the more subtle ones yet or if there are times where there are no emotions at all. What do you think about that?