Is LONELY a program?

axj said:
Anart, what I see is in your reply amounts to not much more than trying to shut up someone you disagree with... Right Man Syndrome? I thought we were having a discussion where we have different viewpoints and where it seemed necessary to clarify a few times.
The thing is, attempts are being made to clarify. Is it possible for you to see what it is that you're really upset about? How do you feel right now - this moment? Anything you want/need to discuss, please feel free to do so. If you feel more comfortable posting in your own thread, you're more than welcome to put it in the swamp. :)
 
axj said:
Anart, what I see is in your reply amounts to not much more than trying to shut up someone you disagree with...

Not at all.

axj said:
Right Man Syndrome? I thought we were having a discussion where we have different viewpoints and where it seemed necessary to clarify a few times.

When the different viewpoints are incorrect, according to the accumulated understanding of this forum, they will be corrected. Several people in this thread have approached the topic from several different angles in an attempt to get you to understand. You refuse to listen or to even consider the idea that you are incorrect. In fact, in defense of your own viewpoint, you resorted to legalistic nitpicking, which is a classic deflection technique, so, yes, Right Man Syndrome.
 
axj said:
Without a well functioning machine you cannot do the Work. It is as simple as that. If you do not breath, you die. If you do not fulfill the need to have contact with people, it will have very detrimental effects and you may go crazy like a person stranded on an uninhabited island...
.............
Some aspects of the machine, such as programs, need to be stopped through conscious choice - those are the areas infested by the "predator" or false personality. Other "automatic" aspects of the machine, such as blood circulation, we do not need to stop. We need them to function well in order to do the Work.
.................
A person who is awake still needs many of the "mechanical" functions of the organism, such as blood circulation, to function well in order to continue doing the Work.
...................

It is not about the semantics at all. It is the question whether some "automatic" processes of the machine are needed in order to do the Work and have nothing to do with the predator or false personality. Examples: breath, blood circulation, emotional need for human contact.

Hi axj,
I do not think anyone said that one does not need to breathe or have contact with people. You do not seem to be considering the various inputs that are given.

The point is about who is in control of the organism that breathes and has social needs. When sleeping, the organism with all its functions serves the purpose of the false personality. When awake, the organism with all its functions serves the purpose of the Real I.

Perhaps the Zen saying
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water"
makes sense? One can replace "chop wood" with breathe and "carry water" with "fulfill social needs" in this context.
 
obyvatel said:
Hi axj,
I do not think anyone said that one does not need to breathe or have contact with people. You do not seem to be considering the various inputs that are given.

The point is about who is in control of the organism that breathes and has social needs. When sleeping, the organism with all its functions serves the purpose of the false personality. When awake, the organism with all its functions serves the purpose of the Real I.

Perhaps the Zen saying
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water"
makes sense? One can replace "chop wood" with breathe and "carry water" with "fulfill social needs" in this context.

Yep, and there's a reason that the "beast" is often portrayed in images/symbols of self-development as ALIVE. Only, it's under the control of the "master". E.g., holding the serpent, riding the donkey, standing on the monster. The predator is always a part of the Self, it's just what role it plays that makes all the difference.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
obyvatel said:
Hi axj,
I do not think anyone said that one does not need to breathe or have contact with people. You do not seem to be considering the various inputs that are given.

The point is about who is in control of the organism that breathes and has social needs. When sleeping, the organism with all its functions serves the purpose of the false personality. When awake, the organism with all its functions serves the purpose of the Real I.

Perhaps the Zen saying
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water"
makes sense? One can replace "chop wood" with breathe and "carry water" with "fulfill social needs" in this context.

Yep, and there's a reason that the "beast" is often portrayed in images/symbols of self-development as ALIVE. Only, it's under the control of the "master". E.g., holding the serpent, riding the donkey, standing on the monster. The predator is always a part of the Self, it's just what role it plays that makes all the difference.

Yes, it is not so important even what it is called, where it is placed within the system, useless to strain at gnats. Nobody said being with other people was wrong, or that having a need to be with other people was wrong. What matters is being aware of ourselves in the moment and noticing the motivations behind such a need, why it arises, what it is for - or more to the point 'who benefits'.

In the context of being lonely and the need to be with others, we can look at the root of the need or desire each time to see who benefits. Sometimes it will be neutral. Sometimes it will the need to feed, the need be reassured; validated; admired etc; or conversely the need to belittle others; to undermine; hen peck or whatever. Sometimes it can be largely for others.

So in taking the thought, "I feel lonely, I need to be with others" or simply "I need to be with others", it is important to examine what lies behind it each time, to be present and act accordingly.

Sometimes maybe its helpful to 'throw the wolf a piece of meat' if that's what you mean by "fulfilling social needs". It keeps the predator quiet a while so one can get on with other things, but moderation is required or the predator will just use it as an excuse for more and more of the same, for laziness. The predator will use any means to justify its behavior and cover its tracks, if it leads away from awakening the predator will be right there flying the flag for it.

Perhaps part of the problem then is in how much one still believes in lies? One reason why, after a while, one must pass beyond throwing the wolf some meat, when you see that the meat is made of lies. When one sees that pretty much everything in society is founded on lies, where's the fruit then continuing the illusion, in "fulfilling social needs"?. See?

Jeanne de Salzmann said:
First Initiation

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! None of this strikes your attention. And yet this is what keeps one world separate from another world.

You have no measure with which to measure yourselves. You live exclusively according to “I like” or “I don’t like,” you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you—theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your “appreciation of yourself” blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further. This test divides men into two kinds: the “wheat” and the “chaff.” No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life. The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

First of all, he has to know what he must look at. When he knows, he must make efforts, keep his attention, look constantly with persistence. Only through maintaining his attention, and not forgetting to look, one day, perhaps, he will be able to see. If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your “I like” and “I don’t like.” Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying “sincerely” to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.


But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

If we do not wish to be machines, we must learn to discern between what is the influence of life in general, the automatism and lies that maintain our illusions, and what is the influence of consciousness, the conscious choices and ideas that can help in our efforts awaken. One must guard against the former and nurture the latter.

Now with all that in mind, ponder the thought 'I am lonely' and re-examine what thoughts/feelings/actions tend arise as a response.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
obyvatel said:
Hi axj,
I do not think anyone said that one does not need to breathe or have contact with people. You do not seem to be considering the various inputs that are given.

The point is about who is in control of the organism that breathes and has social needs. When sleeping, the organism with all its functions serves the purpose of the false personality. When awake, the organism with all its functions serves the purpose of the Real I.

Perhaps the Zen saying
Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water"
makes sense? One can replace "chop wood" with breathe and "carry water" with "fulfill social needs" in this context.

Yep, and there's a reason that the "beast" is often portrayed in images/symbols of self-development as ALIVE. Only, it's under the control of the "master". E.g., holding the serpent, riding the donkey, standing on the monster. The predator is always a part of the Self, it's just what role it plays that makes all the difference.
And without it we will never have in some way, as I see, the potential to become conscious, nothing to fight against, and nothing that distinguishes us and what is not us.
 

Trending content

Back
Top Bottom