Is LONELY a program?

[axj]

Remember it is not you that is lonely, the predator is lonely, predator wants something it feels it isn't getting.

While I agree with everything else you wrote, I tend to disagree on this one. The predator (or the "false personality") is certainly the main cause of all forms of loneliness. However, I think that it is us who feel the loneliness, and not the predator.

It seems that there are two forms of loneliness:

- The first form of loneliness seems to be a disconnect from the true, deeper self - caused by the 'predator', and all the baggage we carry in the mental and emotional centers.

- The second form of loneliness seems to be an "authentic loneliness" when the need for human companionship is not met.

I think you might be blurring some lines there. It is my understanding that loneliness is mechanical - it can't be anything other than mechanical since it is a reaction and, in that mechanical nature, it is an aspect of 'the predator'. Loneliness is 'lack' - it is not 'having' something/someone. It is also directly tied to, if not equal to, self-pity. That does not mean that it is not 'natural', as many mechanical reactions are 'natural'. Human beings are 'pack animals', as it were - so part of that hard wiring is directly linked to loneliness - but - that does not mean that there is something called 'authentic loneliness' that cannot be limited or wholly removed by a person's perception. I would imagine that if a human being were truly awake, at all times, and in full control of their machine and mind and states of consciousness, that they would never be lonely, because they would understand that they are never, really, alone. They would also have completely removed self-importance, and, thus, self-pity. fwiw.

I see what you mean. My view is that humans have social needs, just as we have other natural needs "hard-wired" into us. I guess you can call these "hard-wired" needs mechanical. However, I think that "mechanical" does not automatically mean that it is "an aspect of the predator". Simple example: breathing is "mechanical", but it is not an aspect of the predator. It seems that some forms of loneliness come up when social needs are not met, which in itself seem to be emotional needs.

 

[anart]

I see what you mean. My view is that humans have social needs, just as we have other natural needs "hard-wired" into us. I guess you can call these "hard-wired" needs mechanical. However, I think that "mechanical" does not automatically mean that it is "an aspect of the predator". Simple example: breathing is "mechanical", but it is not an aspect of the predator. It seems that some forms of loneliness come up when social needs are not met, which in itself seem to be emotional needs.

I see your point, but breathing is physiological (motor center) and loneliness is emotional, so I'm not sure the comparison is necessarily valid. The point I think you might have missed is that loneliness can be stopped, or 'grown out of', if you will, especially to the extent that it controls ones thoughts or behaviors. The same can't be said for breathing...

 

[axj]

I see what you mean. My view is that humans have social needs, just as we have other natural needs "hard-wired" into us. I guess you can call these "hard-wired" needs mechanical. However, I think that "mechanical" does not automatically mean that it is "an aspect of the predator". Simple example: breathing is "mechanical", but it is not an aspect of the predator. It seems that some forms of loneliness come up when social needs are not met, which in itself seem to be emotional needs.

I see your point, but breathing is physiological (motor center) and loneliness is emotional, so I'm not sure the comparison is necessarily valid. The point I think you might have missed is that loneliness can be stopped, or 'grown out of', if you will, especially to the extent that it controls ones thoughts or behaviors. The same can't be said for breathing...

I think that, as long as we are in a human body, emotional needs (such as having contact with people) cannot be stopped or 'grown out of'. It is true that there ARE emotional aspects that can be stopped and can be 'grown out of', but the "hard-wired" emotional needs we are born with are a natural part of human experience. And social needs seem to be a part of that. In other words, we have to meet the need for human contact, or we will feel lonely.

Even considering someone who is so advanced in the Work that he or she is close to graduating to 6th density... Since growth is accompanied by DNA changes, it may well be that their human "hard-wiring" will become different to the point of not having social needs and not needing human contact anymore. But that is just speculation. And in fact, even in 6th density they seem to need each other - I remember a comment by the C's that in 6th density they feed each other in some way.

 

[seekr]

I think you might be blurring some lines there. It is my understanding that loneliness is mechanical - it can't be anything other than mechanical since it is a reaction and, in that mechanical nature, it is an aspect of 'the predator'. Loneliness is 'lack' - it is not 'having' something/someone. It is also directly tied to, if not equal to, self-pity. That does not mean that it is not 'natural', as many mechanical reactions are 'natural'. Human beings are 'pack animals', as it were - so part of that hard wiring is directly linked to loneliness - but - that does not mean that there is something called 'authentic loneliness' that cannot be limited or wholly removed by a person's perception. I would imagine that if a human being were truly awake, at all times, and in full control of their machine and mind and states of consciousness, that they would never be lonely, because they would understand that they are never, really, alone. They would also have completely removed self-importance, and, thus, self-pity. fwiw.

This I agree with totally although I never thought of it as self-pity, I can see how it could be. The part about being fully awake and in control of the machine is along the lines of loving ones' self as in, "Know Thy Self", not the modern term "love"....

Although when I spoke of being lonely myself, I meant more from not having anyone to relate to on a deep level. I'm surrounded by people most of the time and even while with others, the feeling of lonely sometimes peeks in. I can't connect with people who talk of nothing but sports, television, Hollywood, material possessions and other meaningless shite.

But at times, due to this lack of any meaningful connection and as I believe, Redfox said, "lack of energy", I have found myself engaging in self-destructive and feeding behavior just to satisfy/silence this "lack" Lately since I've been paying attention to this I have stopped most such behavior when I feel it coming.

 

[Alma.Innovadora]

I think thaaat... Write what you feel, let it flow all. Many identification with "negative" impressions are that loneliness is more depressing, use them and write them, write about yourself in every senses. You'll be in a conversation and questioning with yourself. It's like a "seat" where you pay more attention to these yourself and see many things "from the outside" to think about. Sometimes one seeks at people to distract us from ourselves. Even do things that go against our thoughts and our lives. Some in his loneliness, has things that others did not have for fill out their loneliness. "Why do I feel alone if I have...???" Depending on personal loneliness of everyone. The loneliness for me, was like the "forgetting oneself" more that of some other external element as it has literally been conditioned to conceptualize. Until not are addressed internally, will continue depending on an external element.

 

[anart]

I think that, as long as we are in a human body, emotional needs (such as having contact with people) cannot be stopped or 'grown out of'. It is true that there ARE emotional aspects that can be stopped and can be 'grown out of', but the "hard-wired" emotional needs we are born with are a natural part of human experience. And social needs seem to be a part of that. In other words, we have to meet the need for human contact, or we will feel lonely.

Even considering someone who is so advanced in the Work that he or she is close to graduating to 6th density... Since growth is accompanied by DNA changes, it may well be that their human "hard-wiring" will become different to the point of not having social needs and not needing human contact anymore. But that is just speculation. And in fact, even in 6th density they seem to need each other - I remember a comment by the C's that in 6th density they feed each other in some way.

You are misunderstanding me, and you keep missing the point. The point is that if loneliness controls your thoughts and actions - if it controls you and you don't control it - it IS a program. Emotions are important and valuable things, even the negative ones, but as long as they control one's behavior and/or thoughts, as long as they drive a person, instead of them being utilized by the person, they are programs (the predator). Is that any clearer? It's curious that you've not been understanding the crux here. As I said, loneliness is 'natural' though it is mechanical - being controlled by it/motivated by it/distracted by it/driven by it/ is not 'natural' and is 'the predator'. If it colors the backdrop of your world/thoughts/life, then it is running you, you are not in control. I'm not sure if that clarifies any more, but hopefully it will at least help a bit.

 

[axj]

You are misunderstanding me, and you keep missing the point. The point is that if loneliness controls your thoughts and actions - if it controls you and you don't control it - it IS a program. Emotions are important and valuable things, even the negative ones, but as long as they control one's behavior and/or thoughts, as long as they drive a person, instead of them being utilized by the person, they are programs (the predator). Is that any clearer? It's curious that you've not been understanding the crux here. As I said, loneliness is 'natural' though it is mechanical - being controlled by it/motivated by it/distracted by it/driven by it/ is not 'natural' and is 'the predator'. If it colors the backdrop of your world/thoughts/life, then it is running you, you are not in control. I'm not sure if that clarifies any more, but hopefully it will at least help a bit.

Again, even if something is "mechanical" (such as breath) does not mean that it is "the predator". I thought we already had that?

In the case of breath, which is a "mechanical" physical need, it is obvious that it is not an aspect of "the predator". And I think you already agreed on that.

The point you seem to be missing is that we have not only "mechanical" physical needs such as breath, but also emotional needs, which are also "mechanical" but NOT a part of the predator.

Needs are needs. According to you definition if you are motivated or driven by a need, it must be 'the predator'. It is not. And this includes physical needs, emotional needs and mental needs.

I also said that I see two kinds of loneliness: one caused by lack of human contact (emotional need) and another kind of loneliness that is a sign of being disconnected from one's true self, caused by programs etc.

 

[go2]

The emotional center does not have needs. The emotional center has functions. If the emotional center is perceived as having needs, it is the wrong use of the emotional center and is called identification, a program or the predators mind in the Fourth Way. Perhaps, as Alada alluded we have needs until we have an aim.

 

[Mountain Crown]

The emotional center does not have needs. The emotional center has functions. If the emotional center is perceived as having needs, it is the wrong use of the emotional center and is called identification, a program or the predators mind in the Fourth Way. Perhaps, as Alada alluded we have needs until we have an aim.

Yes, "emotional need" is feeding.

 

[ana]

My understanding is that human contact can be made on several levels: physical, mental(emotional and intellectual) and spiritual. None of them are mechanical per se, mechanicity comes from the wrong use of them.

In speaking of human contact trough emotions, I would say that a human being feels this loneliness when trying for example to contact with another whom is mainly using other center.

In many instances we try to ask for more than others can give and that is why we need to work on ourselves and start to see others for what they are here and now.

Many variables of disconnection may arise taking into account the above.

It is all a question of wich center are we using to relate to others and wich center they are using.

We can say then, that this loneliness comes from ignorance of who we are and who others are, from unconsciously trying to achieve contact, isn't it mechanical?

 

[cubbex]

I see what you mean. My view is that humans have social needs, just as we have other natural needs "hard-wired" into us. I guess you can call these "hard-wired" needs mechanical. However, I think that "mechanical" does not automatically mean that it is "an aspect of the predator". Simple example: breathing is "mechanical", but it is not an aspect of the predator. It seems that some forms of loneliness come up when social needs are not met, which in itself seem to be emotional needs.

I see your point, but breathing is physiological (motor center) and loneliness is emotional, so I'm not sure the comparison is necessarily valid. The point I think you might have missed is that loneliness can be stopped, or 'grown out of', if you will, especially to the extent that it controls ones thoughts or behaviors. The same can't be said for breathing...

O gosh I remember those ugly times of loneliness, I wanted badly some real friends or some company, something that would be with me. But yes people!!! after EE anything is possible lol, I don't really need company and suffer or being in circles in to the lonely program.

To defeat the loneliness I think is like saying goodbye to a bad and selfish girlfriend or pet that just drain you without real purpose, I asked to myself why is so hard to find someone with a perspective like me, but I have found that just being alone was the best way to learn lot of things I have. But that social anxiety, lol I don't really know how to remove it, I have seen that when I smoke that anxiety is removed, and the tendency to get stressed by my family.

Even considering someone who is so advanced in the Work that he or she is close to graduating to 6th density... Since growth is accompanied by DNA changes, it may well be that their human "hard-wiring" will become different to the point of not having social needs and not needing human contact anymore. But that is just speculation. And in fact, even in 6th density they seem to need each other - I remember a comment by the C's that in 6th density they feed each other in some way.

MM ah?? Going from 3rd to 6th densiy???? or going from 5th to 6th density????
I know that in 4th or 5th density the sex roles do not have real importance because some kind of hermaphrodite body, but i don't know if you easily can go from 3rd to 6th density directly. Aren't you assuming??? I know you want to help, but I feel that you are missing some points, one example was in your post after mine that I don't know if you were giving the answer to my question, because that's something I didn't ask, and really it didn't told me where you were basing on, that it was some emotional trauma, wich facts did you take to say that for example.

Needs are needs. According to you definition if you are motivated or driven by a need, it must be 'the predator'. It is not. And this includes physical needs, emotional needs and mental needs.

Aren't you forgetting that we are STS, and that because of it, the predator is some analogy to our STS behavior with looooots of needs???

 

[Alada]

You are misunderstanding me, and you keep missing the point. The point is that if loneliness controls your thoughts and actions - if it controls you and you don't control it - it IS a program. Emotions are important and valuable things, even the negative ones, but as long as they control one's behavior and/or thoughts, as long as they drive a person, instead of them being utilized by the person, they are programs (the predator). Is that any clearer? It's curious that you've not been understanding the crux here. As I said, loneliness is 'natural' though it is mechanical - being controlled by it/motivated by it/distracted by it/driven by it/ is not 'natural' and is 'the predator'. If it colors the backdrop of your world/thoughts/life, then it is running you, you are not in control. I'm not sure if that clarifies any more, but hopefully it will at least help a bit.

Again, even if something is "mechanical" (such as breath) does not mean that it is "the predator". I thought we already had that?

"The predator" can also be interchangeable with "the machine", breathing is a function of the machine, emotional needs are functions of the machine, just different parts of same.

[quote author=axj]
In the case of breath, which is a "mechanical" physical need, it is obvious that it is not an aspect of "the predator". And I think you already agreed on that.[/quote]

It is part of the machine, instinctive.

[quote author=axj]
The point you seem to be missing is that we have not only "mechanical" physical needs such as breath, but also emotional needs, which are also "mechanical" but NOT a part of the predator. [/quote]

Then try to describe precisely, one emotional need that is not mechanical. What is at the root of 'the need to be with others?' as you see it? That is not to say that being with others is in someway wrong, or harmful! But better that we examine what it is in us that wants to have its needs fulfilled, and whether that is actually something useful, joyful, beneficial to us in our aim, or just the predator/machine feeling hungry.

[quote author=axj]
Needs are needs. According to you definition if you are motivated or driven by a need, it must be 'the predator'. It is not. And this includes physical needs, emotional needs and mental needs.[/quote]

If the motivation is 'driven by need' the clue is right there in the description. It is the predator/machine driving us then, it's not not a conscious choice.

[quote author=axj]
I also said that I see two kinds of loneliness: one caused by lack of human contact (emotional need) and another kind of loneliness that is a sign of being disconnected from one's true self, caused by programs etc.
[/quote]

I think in those two instances the root is different but the driver can be the same. It depends what one does in each case. Many folk here will identify with the idea of being disconnected from one's true self, one's true family even, but to truly grasp it, and work towards it one must do away with the 'useless suffering' that can come with it, that includes 'identifying' with loneliness. It won't help us to change ourselves. It is certainly healthy to wish to be with others of like mind, to have true fellowship and work towards it, but at the same time one must let go the emotional need part.

If you didn't read it yet, you ought to read Ouspensky's 'In Search of the Miraculous'. To have such discussion it is important to be clear about definitions, what is 'mechanical'; 'identified'; etc, otherwise nobody understands each other.

 

[seekr]

You are misunderstanding me, and you keep missing the point. The point is that if loneliness controls your thoughts and actions - if it controls you and you don't control it - it IS a program. Emotions are important and valuable things, even the negative ones, but as long as they control one's behavior and/or thoughts, as long as they drive a person, instead of them being utilized by the person, they are programs (the predator). Is that any clearer? It's curious that you've not been understanding the crux here. As I said, loneliness is 'natural' though it is mechanical - being controlled by it/motivated by it/distracted by it/driven by it/ is not 'natural' and is 'the predator'. If it colors the backdrop of your world/thoughts/life, then it is running you, you are not in control. I'm not sure if that clarifies any more, but hopefully it will at least help a bit.

This says it all!! This will be a great gauge to identify programs of all sorts.

Most emotions I have pretty good control over, but there are a few that slip under the radar, not recognized as such. Many times I've been accused of not caring or being without emotion because I don't respond in the expected way to people's provocations, to which I respond "Strong currents run beneath still waters". Just because one does not show emotion does not mean one doesn't feel them and sometimes very acutely. But being able to control my emotions before I respond, is a learned skill that came from much adversity. Not to say say I never respond to emotion.

The emotional center does not have needs. The emotional center has functions. If the emotional center is perceived as having needs, it is the wrong use of the emotional center and is called identification, a program or the predators mind in the Fourth Way. Perhaps, as Alada alluded we have needs until we have an aim.

Yes, "emotional need" is feeding.

"Emotional need is feeding" Amen This I have observed in myself and others. I try to look at why I feel this need before I act on them now. Also when someone is trying to pull me into an emotional situation, I try to ask myself what is the real intent.

Thanks Anart and go2 for these "gems" and all the others for your input.

 

[axj]

Again, even if something is "mechanical" (such as breath) does not mean that it is "the predator". I thought we already had that?

"The predator" can also be interchangeable with "the machine", breathing is a function of the machine, emotional needs are functions of the machine, just different parts of same.

So you are saying that breathing is "the predator"? Here I completely disagree. "The predator" (false personality, ego) has infested "the machine", but they are not one and the same.

[quote author=axj]
The point you seem to be missing is that we have not only "mechanical" physical needs such as breath, but also emotional needs, which are also "mechanical" but NOT a part of the predator.

Then try to describe precisely, one emotional need that is not mechanical.[/quote]

In the highlighted part I said that emotional needs ARE mechanical, that is they are a part of "the machine" and not the predator. Fulfilling emotional needs is not much different than fulfilling the physical need to breath. It is how the machine works and we need it to function well. Fulfilling social needs makes sure that the machine functions.

 

[seekr]

In the highlighted part I said that emotional needs ARE mechanical, that is they are a part of "the machine" and not the predator. Fulfilling emotional needs is not much different than fulfilling the physical need to breath. It is how the machine works and we need it to function well. Fulfilling social needs makes sure that the machine functions.

Very true but it makes sure that the machine continues to function as a machine and not as a vessel controlled but an awakened conscious being