is my daughter an agent, psychopath or just a lonely soul in search of love?

[mbww]

Keep loving your daughter with all your heart and never think of abandoning her.
If it's hard to love or put up with her misbehavior, think of your relationship as your life purpose. As long as you keep caring for her, you are a good mother and fulfilling your duty.

There are times when negative influences can happen and affect family members, sometimes out of the blue and beyond our comprehension. Keep manifesting love, don't look for root causes, show care and have a constructive attitude. Most of the time those negative energies die out. Sometimes it may take a year or two for this reversal, don't lose hope, you will see her becoming a better person, and she will appreciate your devotion. Those born in Cancer had a particular tough time being vulnerable to such attacks over the last year.

Also, you could scale down your "spiritual" endeavors, try to keep it simple: clean thoughts and just a prayer when in doubt or feel overwhelmed, rest of the time keep it busy with providing for the family.

 

[Stern]

Thank you Stern for sharing your story with us.

I'm afraid I have nothing much to offer on parenting but I was struck by your description above.

Did you have any strange or alienating feelings during pregnancy was well?
Are you aware of theories that suggest 'souls' may be choosing their parents beforehand?

Mothers could be unconsciously attracting disincarnated souls for a variety of reasons, one of them might be reworking a former relationship in another lifetime.



I understand you've already tried different avenues to bring more clarity to your situation.



My impression is that mothers (before and after birth) can almost develop extra-sensory perception regarding their young. I feel as if your panic at childbirth could have been an impulse from your unconscious regarding the scope of your task...

Your list of counselings shows that you have definitely left no stone unturned. Please keep us posted...

Thank you Stern for sharing your story with us.

I'm afraid I have nothing much to offer on parenting but I was struck by your description above.

Did you have any strange or alienating feelings during pregnancy was well?
Are you aware of theories that suggest 'souls' may be choosing their parents beforehand?

Mothers could be unconsciously attracting disincarnated souls for a variety of reasons, one of them might be reworking a former relationship in another lifetime.



I understand you've already tried different avenues to bring more clarity to your situation.



My impression is that mothers (before and after birth) can almost develop extra-sensory perception regarding their young. I feel as if your panic at childbirth could have been an impulse from your unconscious regarding the scope of your task...

Your list of counselings shows that you have definitely left no stone unturned. Please keep us posted...

I do not know the theory. Until 2 years ago, when I started to read the Cs material, I had no idea of a hyperdimensional reality. The Cs material was a shock.....for me in the beginning, but it was the best shock of my life. It is an honor.
I find what they say very interesting. Thanks, I will read something about it. Great.
To answer the question
I had the strange feeling twice. At fertilization and at birth. I remember how I used to walk around my apartment and I twitched. Then I knew that I was pregnant. Right on the dot. The same feeling was then again at birth....it was like a sudden certainty that completely overwhelmed me.... I can not describe the feeling with a 3d word, only it was strange. (PS. I am otherwise not a clairvoyant person who has premonitions, so it was so striking to me).

 

[Stern]

It's possible these thoughts and feelings had an impact on your first daughter and what she's manifesting is a consequence of that. I was a pretty manipulative and unhappy child growing up. My mom was young when she had me, 20 years old, and the rest of the family didn't find out about it until after she gave birth. Of course, my mom says I was a welcome surprise but honestly, it was an unwanted pregnancy and deep down I felt it and as I look back, acted out that belief. Our relationship was always combative and tense and I never felt safe or secure with her.

Things are much different with my younger sister who has a more stable attachment and healthier relationship with our mom. Sometimes hindsight is 20/20 and we learn from the past and make different choices next time around. And I can only imagine how painful it would be for her to admit what she really felt all those decades ago, so I think that you being able to bring this up and at least acknowledge there might be something to the above written might help you to heal the past and reconcile your relationship with your daughter. If not today, then at least when she's older and has matured more in life. FWIW.

You're probably right. Of course, I gave her the strange feeling....and maybe she feels unloved.
Then it's high time to make it better and heal our common short past.
On your advice I decided to do a healing trance together with her....We will breathe EE (as a short form) and then do something healing together (a game, a trance, a set of karma). Thanks for your story.

 

[SMM]

Social norms are unimportant to her like punctuality, combing her hair, washing herself, brushing her teeth.

Has she always been this way from the word go, or were they once important and then some things changed, including this?

Stanton Samenow's book Before It's Too Late might be worth reading. My best to you all.

 

[Stern]

Am I off the mark when I say I seem to detect that at some level you as parents didn't make a successful immediate transition from happy self-contained lovers to committed and giving parents? If I've learned anything about being a parent it is that you'd better grow up fast and learn that - as Jordan Peterson put it so bluntly - when you have kids the marriage is no longer about you - its for the kids! And yes he adds its also for the parents/lovers, but essentially I think he is bluntly pointing out that wannabe parents who believe that they have it so good and just need a couple of complicit kids on the mantelpiece to complete their set of perfection invariably make a complete mess of the job because their implicit narcissism cannot make the necessary bridge to putting the kids first, second and near last.

Maybe that applies to me. And if only unconsciously. The relationship with the child was always in the foreground. But maybe unconsciously not.
The assumption about you does not apply to my husband. He "married" our daughter, was absolutely infatuated with her and showered her with affection. She was always his life's work and the two of them cuddled and played all day long. That only changed when she became about seven years old and she only lied to him.

This is clearly a complex long term problem Stern on which I really think you should seek some expert child-parent counseling (if you haven't done so already). But I think there is a lot of confusion going on here and very mixed messaging with many confused issues around parenting responsibilities and boundary making. And about who's job it is to make who feel loved.

thank you for your impulses. it is also difficult to summarize 10 years in a small text. And yes, you have recognized me correctly. It's a confusion of educational issues, border crossing and own programs. And I think that is also the problem. Many factors play into each other. I turned to you in order to see clearly again and to be able to act. Thanks for your ideas.

What was it precisely about/during the pregnancy that made your feelings of negativity rear up even before your daughter was born? Apart from the possibility this implicit per-rejection may - and I say may - have been absorbed in the womb by your daughter, it is very strong to say you knew this was the biggest mistake of your life before even giving birth...

you are right. i am sure this happens. during the pregnancy i was healthy and happy. No bad feelings, no problems with others. i felt good and i was really really looking forward the birth. We both were looking forward....and the birth was without complications and i need no medicaments....i had a good doctor....everything was perfect.....only this strange second and my thoughts in this moment.

I know you say you had no post natal depression but you were clearly in a very confused state and those first days, weeks and months of bonding between particularly mother and child are absolutely essential for that child to develop a sense of safety, belonging and trust. Yes they demand and shout and roar (its all they know) but it is the loving, giving and easy response of giving from the parent/mother that confirms all is safe despite the vulnerability of being born. If this is in any way restricted or based on 'what am I getting from you the child?', then that's a big problem in store..

You see I was kinda of shocked by the title of the thread when I read your whole post. I detect all kinds of hints of you value judging your daughter's responses to you from very early on and that your 'love' as you call it was an act of some kind - and dependent on what she gave back - but you don't seem to have considered that her behavior may well be a product of not believing or trusting or knowing what her boundaries of security, love and support as a young child was - and that her lying tactics etc of alter on may have grown from this, especially as it seems the external issues of her looks and being such a 'top child' with approval by others may have only reinforced her learning that adults cant be trusted and need/deserve to be manipulated - because they don't give truly, freely and without condition of their true selves.

I am not blaming or accusing - I'm just posing something to think about. Its unfair to say the parents are always to blame; but in most cases that are not to do with some genetic pathology (and I'm not remotely convinced this is what your daughter is showing), I think we need to start with ourselves first. She was a child. You the parent. It was your job to make her safe, especially in those pivotal first 3 years when the three most important hardware programmes of life are laid down - and if they are not, real damage and trouble can emerge for all concerned. I assume you have read Laura on this vital matter of successful imprinting?

you are right. perhaps i had a post natal depression.
And I know that i transfer this to her. I am an empathic person, i wanted to have a baby and I never wanted to do this to her. I was aware of it every second, however, and I agree with you, I couldn't get out of my skin. I always wanted to love my child, I never wanted to hurt her. I never wanted to think negatively about her. I always wanted to be close.
But I had no tools to change anything inside me. I only felt guilty. And this victim thinking of mine made it even more difficult. Because I didn't change anything, I just rolled around in bad feelings. I'm sorry about that. But I'm different now. And I'm ready to heal.
NOW I have it, and also the strength to save what can still be saved. So I turned to you. So that I can do something NOW! I want to try to make up for it.
You help me to take on the role of observer. So that I can see clearly where I can start.
Thanks for the tip with wave 64. I don't know it, I'm only at chapter 24 and I read the book Seelenhacker. In the forum I read daily.
want to learn to love my daughter unconditionally. Thanks for all the good advice.

 

[Stern]

that's the opposite of what JBP recommends

but i have no idea how it is to be in this situation

absolutly. i talked with him yesterday a long time.....perhaps we will be more a team now.

 

[Stern]

I am not sure what to say regarding how you feels hugging her though. You may be better off in conserving energy while doing your motherly duty, not to be manipulated by her and try to be better person.

think this is step 1. thank you, thank you, thank you

MO having a consistent message from both parents to the kid is very important. Otherwise, kids not only get confused impressions and play in between. This message can be done without being harsh if there is an understanding between the parents. Every parent reacts with more intensity to his kid and may not feel the same intensity to the others kid. There are occasions i worried about my kid's issues, when I talked to my friends, they simply convey that it is normal and told me much worse situation. you never know what others say suddenly makes sense. Some times it is important to know we are not alone. There is a saying kids doesn't come with user manuals.

it feels good to talk to independent parents here in the forum. i have 3 best friends with adults children. but they know me very well and so it is really good to hear independent advices. Thank you. And you are right. My husband and me must become a team.....this is an important advice. So.....a lot of work. for all....

 

[Stern]

Keep loving your daughter with all your heart and never think of abandoning her.
If it's hard to love or put up with her misbehavior, think of your relationship as your life purpose. As long as you keep caring for her, you are a good mother and fulfilling your duty.

There are times when negative influences can happen and affect family members, sometimes out of the blue and beyond our comprehension. Keep manifesting love, don't look for root causes, show care and have a constructive attitude. Most of the time those negative energies die out. Sometimes it may take a year or two for this reversal, don't lose hope, you will see her becoming a better person, and she will appreciate your devotion. Those born in Cancer had a particular tough time being vulnerable to such attacks over the last year.

Also, you could scale down your "spiritual" endeavors, try to keep it simple: clean thoughts and just a prayer when in doubt or feel overwhelmed, rest of the time keep it busy with providing for the family.

Wow. I would love to say AMEN to your beautiful words. You are so right. That is the reason why I wrote.
Yeah, I can still save our relationship.
Yes, I can be a team again with my husband.
Yes, I can concentrate on the important and essential things, on my daughter.
Yes, the causes are not important. Only that you do it differently.
Yes, yes, yes....
Because what good is all this spiritual work if I don't apply it to my child.
You are great. IN THE HERE AND NOW. you sound almost like the words of my best friend. Thank you.
I am an astrology fan and numerologist myself. Maybe you can tell me what it is about those born in cancer. Exciting. My daughter is a Scorpio, but I'm sure that's not what you meant.
All contributions have helped me a lot. Thanks. thanks, thanks

 

[Stern]

Has she always been this way from the word go, or were they once important and then some things changed, including this?

Stanton Samenow's book Before It's Too Late might be worth reading. My best to you all.

always....since she can do things herself

 

[Ina]

want to learn to love my daughter unconditionally.

Erase any fear and start with being curious about her. Observe. Learn. Discover. Find out what is she all about, her likes, her dislikes, her natural inclinations, her natural avoidances, even limitations. Children are their own persons and often mothers forget that. Mothers have some mental magnifying glass that shows only a prescribed list of do's and don'ts. You mentioned about sparks and that tells me there is a strong connection there. Perhaps you need to learn and teach how to communicate to each other. Roleplay games although most demanding might be a way to get on the same wavelength. At the age of 10 she can start ballet, learning how to play an instrument, singing, painting and she has enough time to realise that practice makes the skill and the self expression not only easy but also complete. And that's important because she can learn who she is and her own measure and worth not only because she can impose her will on others but through what she can do. Confidence in her own abilities will be critical for her self esteem and self respect and auto recognition.

I am not an expert. I am a 57 year old child that still longs for her mother to understand what she's all about. I was the opposite of your daughter. I was a very quiet and stubborn child. My mother was annoyed with me when I was a toddler. Then she was afraid that I would turn out badly because of not doing homework and lying about it (in grade II). Behavior and communication wise, my mother kept her distance, I kept mine. I felt and still feel disconnected and orphaned and on my own, not knowing where I belonged. I wanted to feel protected and loved. I am also a wife and a mother of two daughters 32 and 30, and a Nana to a 2 year old granddaughter, but I started to learn how to love only after I got married and had children. I am still learning. Too late, if you want to ask me. I could have done better if my mother was a bit more curious. No matter what I love her dearly!!!!

 

[Tauriel]

Thank you for your impulses. It is difficult to discuss the subject with others. I can't go to another mom and say: hey, do you also feel nothing when your child takes you in his arms?....or hey, do you also feel guilty and therefore you were inconsistent? ....or hey, does your child also lie all day long?
If they would feel the same way, they would not admit it. So I am glad that I could reveal myself here.
For further ideas and impulses I am grateful.

I hear you....
My first born was my daughter, her brother arrived 2,5 years later.
There were huge differences between them and in their physical interactions a bit similiar what you described. When hugging my daughter she felt like a stringed bow. Hugging my son though he literally melted.
I also had strange thoughts and emotions towards her that I didn't have for my son.
I won't go into detail here but they are both grown up by now and both turned out to be fine human beings. I'm proud of both of them.
I made a lot of mistakes in raising them as probably is the case with many of us and I fully acknowledged my shortcomings. I can see clearly the results of said shortcomings and apologized to them when they were grown up. We are responsible for a lot but not for everything our kids are and become.

As it sounds your daughter might need loving consequence which might be something to work on for some years to follow.
But she will be an adult sooner as you wish for and the chances that she'll do fine are surely given. Your patience and resilience might get tested big time but you surely are equipped to handle all this just well.
Don't lose hope, our children are a challenge we cannot avoid (which makes me want to look at offered challenges in the past when avoidance won over tackling them).

 

[YoYa]

At about 4 years of age she started to use her winning nature to gain advantages and attention. This has increased to such an extent that every second with her has become an effort. She needs attention every second. Her life is one big stage and she is the actress who constantly creates drama or something else.
She lies the whole day, about everything and everyone. This is almost pathological and sometimes she gets her lies mixed up because she has forgotten who she told when and what. There is of 10 minutes of conversation with her, maybe 2 minutes where she doesn't -flick- with me.
All day long she forgets everything that is annoying for her, appointments, clothes, homework.
She never lets others finish and wants to dominate every situation. She always wants to have the power. Like a king. She has to be aware of everything, judge, control.
She thinks only about herself and her advantage. It is only important that she gets what she wants.

If I understand your narrative correctly, you are telling about yourself, yes? .. Because your children are still children, aren't they?

 

[Gwenllian]

I am happy to see that you have already received some great feed-back, Stern and kudos to you for opening up.

I have a few thoughts and questions I would like to share with you.

I have been very consistent and clear for the last 8 months.

Have you noticed any change at all in your daughter's behaviour? How does she respond to your setting clear rules? Do you have the impression that she craves them, even if she may resist you initially?

She is great to her sister, almost like a mother and her little sister adores her. With her she is very different. Sure, she always wants to be the boss. But her little sister stands under her and adores her. Of course she likes that very much. But I can never say anything negative here either. They are very attached to each other.

I am happy to hear that your daughters get along so well. To me it sounds as if your youngest daughter adores your older daughter just for who she is, and that is most likely something which your daughter sorely needs? Perhaps her 'bossiness' will disappear once she feels less 'unseen' by you and your husband?

While reading this thread I was reminded of Stephen Covey's The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People in which he relates the bond between father and son which at one point seemed broken (the son was a bit older, but I suspect this suggestion could also apply to your 10 year old daughter). The father started doing a project with his son, BUT it was a project that the son could enjoy since he liked to work with his hands contrary to his father who was more intellectually-inclined. Is there something that just the two of you could do, something which your daughter would enjoy? Covey went on date nights with his kids and the kids could say where they wanted to go. Something for your husband to consider perhaps, so he can get out of that negative mode he finds himself in now?

It might also help if you learn to speak the love languages of your daughter: what makes her feel loved and cherished? I have read The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman, but there is also a book about children which could help you build a better relationship with your kids?

I'm not saying that all your problems will magically disappear overnight. The people in the books that I mentioned were having serious problems, but they managed to overcome them when they changed their mindset and started acting in a constructive manner.

The great thing about learning how to do things differently is that we can counteract our feelings of guilt, which tend to wear us down and it will change our perspective in a radical manner if we are willing to do the Work. My two cents!

 

[Renaissance]

you are right. perhaps i had a post natal depression.
And I know that i transfer this to her. I am an empathic person, i wanted to have a baby and I never wanted to do this to her. I was aware of it every second, however, and I agree with you, I couldn't get out of my skin. I always wanted to love my child, I never wanted to hurt her. I never wanted to think negatively about her. I always wanted to be close.
But I had no tools to change anything inside me. I only felt guilty. And this victim thinking of mine made it even more difficult. Because I didn't change anything, I just rolled around in bad feelings. I'm sorry about that. But I'm different now. And I'm ready to heal.

I think these are some really good realizations, Stern. It sounds like the initial panic attack created a barrier in you and that likely lead to the creation of some attachment issues that your daughter probably has. One book that could help understand these attachment dynamics is Healing Developmental Trauma by L. Heller and A. LaPierre. It's a highly recommended book.

An infant is very receptive to their mother's state because mothers are in essence acting as the infant's (external) nervous system while their internal one develops. They depend on the mother to learn how to regulate, cope, and how to connect or disconnect. If you felt disconnected to her at birth and after, you might consider how she deeply she felt this as a rejection of her and how she learned disconnection and rejection as a fundamental response to the world around her. I'm not saying this to make you feel bad or ashamed. You've obviously worked through these emotions already and see how they've just fed the cycle of disconnection. That's huge. Really good job on that. I think you'll be able to utilize this skill in a number of ways in how you parent your child. I mentioned the disconnection dynamics, because the mirroring processes that taught her disconnection are also the same you can use for connection. Your daughter is still developing and I think you can heal with her.

You are working to make things right, and that effort is a solid reason that you should be forgiving of yourself. This effort and forgiveness of yourself will also allow you to be forgiving to your daughter too. She's been through a lot with not having a mother who felt truely connected to her, and with her father who now rejects her too. It sounds like she has a lot of behaviors that require boundaries, but I'd suggest to work through these things with her.

I agree with what was mentioned about taking an approach of curiosity. Instead of being upset about her lying, ask her what she thinks was going on when she lies about something. Be curious to really know. Ask her what she wanted and if there are any other ways she can think of to get what she wants. Walk her through the process. It's pretty similar to the approach you are already using in this thread.

I see her acting out behaviors as a distortion of her conscience wanting to be seen and connected with. Just as you have lightened up the negative emotions associated with your disconnection with her, you can do the same for her and I think that will help you grow together. The curiosity mentioned above is one example of this. This curiosity helps change the language you use in your own mind about her behaviors, and that in turn changes the intensity of the emotions involved that fuel these behaviors. You could take a 'lightening' approach in other ways too. For example, instead of either ignoring or just telling her how she needs better grooming, you could have 'spa days' with her and her sister where you brush her hair and paint her nails. Things like that. It removes the negative tension and replaces it with a bonding experience.

It may take time for her to feel comfortable with these things, but this little girl has had a lot of rejection in her life. Her rejection of others is comfortable for her because it gives her control. It's one of the few things she has. So, you could give her other tools to use so she can discover that she actually doesn't need such control anymore.

You're doing good work.

 

[Renaissance]

And she was the typical princess. Also with my husband. She was the total star of the family. I wasn't a strict mother and let her get away with a lot.

The assumption about you does not apply to my husband. He "married" our daughter, was absolutely infatuated with her and showered her with affection. She was always his life's work and the two of them cuddled and played all day long. That only changed when she became about seven years old and she only lied to him.

And poof, she danced on our noses. She lied and fooled us all the time. My husband reacted with aggressive rejection. He has no desire to deal with her. He takes it personally. He is verbally often rough with her.

When one parent treats a child this way, they are essentially making that child their 'spouse', as you mention. This is too much for the child. They can't handle this type of adult emotion and attention. This dynamic also sounds like it supported your existing disconnection to your daughter. It is also common in such situations that it creates problems in the actual adult marriage as their are resentments that are built. If you and your husband became more committed to eachother when your daughter was around seven or if his attention became focused on something else, that might explain why she started lying to him. It's just a dysfunctional reaction to dysfunction. It's good that you're working on your relationship with your husband now, because that is needed for both of you being able to truely parent her.

To understand this more you might also check out the book The Emotional Incest Syndrome by Patricia Love. It's not a comfortable topic, but it is helpful for healing. You might find the book translated in your native language, or there may be other books written on the topic in your language. I don't think it is necessary to bring this up with your husband as it could cause some unneeded drama when you are just beginning to work on repairing things with him.