is my daughter an agent, psychopath or just a lonely soul in search of love?

[Inquorate]

If something goes wrong with our car, we go to a mechanic, because they know more than us about the problem.
I read a book by Dr Gabor Mate called scattered minds, regarding my 10yo son, who has attention problems, and a sensory disorder. Best book ever.

It is up to you to reach your daughter. She is the child, and though it sounds like she does a lot for your attention, she doesn't see the worth of it because of how much it costs her.

If you give attention that is unasked for, you will in time see her behaviour completely change. But you need the knowledge, and that book I mentioned is essential.

You can do this, but you will have to learn a lot about yourself in the process.

"
It is worth recalling here that the injudicious use of rewards and praise can be pressure tactics no less than verbal or physical coercion. As we have seen, there are three dangers with motivating by means of reward and praise. First, they feed the anxiety that not the person but the desired achievement is what is valued by the parent. They directly reinforce the insecurity of the ADD child. Second, since children can sense the parents’ will pushing them, even if under benign disguises such as gifts or warm words, counterwill will be strengthened. Third, praise and reward will themselves become the goal, at the expense of the child’s interest in the actual process of what he is doing. Children thus motivated will sooner or later learn to get by with the least amount of effort necessary to earn the praise or the reward. Short cuts and cheating often follow. Accepting”
― Gabor Maté, Scattered: How Attention Deficit Disorder Originates And What You Can Do About It

Scattered Minds Quotes by Gabor Maté

181 quotes from Scattered Minds: The Origins and Healing of Attention Deficit Disorder: ‘We think that children act, whereas what they mostly do is react...

www.goodreads.com

 

[Alejo]

Hi Stern,

I think you've received great feedback, and I think you did the right thing by sharing sincerely your doubts. I agree with others here, it seems like the behavior from your daughter has origins other than a psychopathology, from what I've read, pathological children have a particular coldness about themselves that is unmissable. The fact that she seems warm with her sister I think might rule that out.

The lying, well, that's a longer habit to work on, I would perhaps suggest as others have, to not take it too personal but also don't make her wrongdoings completely ok, find a balance, know that she looks up to you to learn and how you handle yourself with her in these situations where she is wrong, is how she will handle herself in the future.

I also wanted to make echo of what others have said about your own impact on her, perhaps your distrust of her is something she picks up on and feels as though she needs to protect herself from you. And being that she's only 10, it's up to you to grow closer to her and show her that it's ok to trust you as her mother.

Imagine if your mother behaved as though she thought you were a robot, a soulless monster... and faked loving you. Even if she never said it out loud, you would know, there's subtle cues that we're all able to pick up on, specially children I believe. That's a rather hostile situation, so perhaps her lying and manipulation is just her way to cope and survive.

The fact that she behaves like a mother to her sister is also interesting in this context. Maybe she loves her sister but doesn't trust you won't treat her sister as she's felt treated by you maybe? I hope the above does not sound harsh, I don't meant to be, but I do think that given her age, it will require some work between you and your husband to establish the appropriate boundaries and to show her that she may trust you guys.

Just my two cents.

 

[genero81]

Imagine if your mother behaved as though she thought you were a robot, a soulless monster... and faked loving you. Even if she never said it out loud, you would know, there's subtle cues that we're all able to pick up on, specially children I believe. That's a rather hostile situation, so perhaps her lying and manipulation is just her way to cope and survive.

Right, I also thought that having the reaction to your daughter right off the bat like that would pretty definitely interfere with the bonding process. Attunement is recognized to be a crucial part of that process.

Emotional attunement or mirroring can be defined as the ability to recognize, understand and engage with another's emotional state. In intimate relationships lack of emotional attunement leads to unhappiness, distrust, resentment and loss of loving feelings.

 

[T.C.]

Hi Stern

I’d start by echoing Michael B-C’s advice to try to find a counsellor who specialises in parent/child dynamics.

A couple of things from Jordan Peterson:

He says that whenever we are having a problem with a loved one, it’s always best to assume first that it’s our fault. That’s not to say we should just always take the blame for everything in every situation. But it’s just essential that we examine ourselves, our own behaviours, things we could have done wrong, before we start blaming others. As a parent, I think that is paramount with a child so young who is acting how you describe.

If you think you and her father have given mixed signals, or haven’t set proper boundaries, then Peterson’s other blunt statement on child-rearing should also be seriously meditated on: “Do not allow your children to do things that make you dislike them.”

From what you wrote in your first post, I think that applies to you perfectly. From your description, it sounds like all she does is do things that make you dislike her. She’ll only continue to do that if you allow it.

Have you read the books Trapped in the Mirror and The Narcissistic Family? If not, you should. You’ll find information about them if you search here on the forum.

And I too am sorry to hear about your situation. I honestly can’t imagine how terrible it must be to feel the way you have for so long, and to have this problem in your life. My thoughts go out to you.

 

[hlat]

I think Martha Stout's book Outsmarting the Sociopath Next Door might help you. There's a section on dealing with your child. Another good book is Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté. But I would start with Martha Stout's book.

 

[Alejo]

I think Martha Stout's book Outsmarting the Sociopath Next Door might help you. There's a section on dealing with your child. Another good book is Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Maté. But I would start with Martha Stout's book.

I thought about that book by Marta Stout as well, but since what has been shared does not point to a psychopathic child, I wouldn’t advise reading it yet, I think one runs the risk of projecting some of the stories in the book onto real life and perhaps causing more harm than good, by cementing in oneself the idea that some of the coping mechanisms are signs of a conscienceless child.

I haven’t read the other one.

But I don’t think in this case we’re looking at a psychopathic child so much as dysfunctional dynamics with the parents that need to be worked on first.

 

[lainey]

I thought about that book by Marta Stout as well, but since what has been shared does not point to a psychopathic child, I wouldn’t advise reading it yet, I think one runs the risk of projecting some of the stories in the book onto real life and perhaps causing more harm than good, by cementing in oneself the idea that some of the coping mechanisms are signs of a conscienceless child.

I haven’t read the other one.

But I don’t think in this case we’re looking at a psychopathic child so much as dysfunctional dynamics with the parents that need to be worked on first.

I agree. I'm sorry that you are in this situation, Stern. It seems like quite the knot to untangle. I would advise to begin with yourself, look for some local parenting classes or material on parenting and behaviour. Do your best to change the way that you respond to the lying and unhelpful behaviours if what you are doing isn't helping.

There are thousands of results on Google if you type in "why is my child lying?" you could start there to read up on the basics:

Distinguish the Reason for the Lie
There are three main reasons kids lie: fantasy, bragging, or to prevent negative consequences. When you distinguish the likely reason for the lie, it can help you develop a plan to respond to it.

Fantasy
Preschoolers often tell fantasy lies. If your child says, “I went to the moon last night,” ask, “Is that something that’s really true? Or something you wish was true?” This can help kids understand the difference between reality and make-believe. However, if your child is simply playing pretend, it's OK to indulge in the fantasy—as long as everyone is aware that it fiction rather than fact.

Bragging
If a child lies because they are bragging, it may be because they have low self-esteem or want to gain attention. They may benefit from learning new social skills and from engaging in positive activities to boost their self-esteem.

Avoiding Responsibility
All kids lie to get out of trouble sometimes. It’s important that their lies aren’t successful. Instead, make it clear to your kids that you will be double-checking the facts.

Another component of using lies to avoid responsibility is that kids may use lying to workaround expectations or to get to do what they want. Examples include lies of omission, ignoring, or partial truths, such as a child who may claim to need to use the bathroom to get out of unloading the dishwasher—they may use the toilet but then never return to the kitchen.

Perhaps if you can take note of the things she lies about, you can determine if she really does lie about "everything" or if it is something more simple to understand. If it's attention-seeking you can sit down with your partner and read up on positive attention, if it's avoiding responsibility you could set up a chores/reward system.

I think that because this has been going on for such a long time, it may be helpful for you to consider that the lying is now likely a reflex, not a conscious manipulation. You could try to rewire your own thinking, from thoughts like "my child is a soulless psychopath" to "undoing this unhelpful behaviour will take time and effort". If she has picked up on how you feel/felt in the past (which she most likely has) then hopefully she will respond positively to you changing the way you feel. FWIW.

Good luck

 

[Stern]

Dear members,
thank you for your responses and inputs, thoughts and ideas. i write a lot of your posts in a book for me....a book called "healing my child and me". I now understand: it is their reaction to my rejection. And everything went out of control. i am very glad for your hints. Now I can work on myself. I got almost all the recommended books. Thank you for that. Where is it better to learn to love unconditionally, and live the thought of sto than with your own children. Even if it often seems the most difficult there. I read this words in the forum: it is time to follow your words and thoughts with actions. I would like to thank each and every one of you. I am positive and think that healing could still happen. Thank you for not judging me. But that you helped me to look whats wronge there, whats my real problem and become a better person Merry Christmas. Thank you.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

[Ina]

Dear members,
thank you for your responses and inputs, thoughts and ideas. i write a lot of your posts in a book for me....a book called "healing my child and me". I now understand: it is their reaction to my rejection. And everything went out of control. i am very glad for your hints. Now I can work on myself. I got almost all the recommended books. Thank you for that. Where is it better to learn to love unconditionally, and live the thought of sto than with your own children. Even if it often seems the most difficult there. I read this words in the forum: it is time to follow your words and thoughts with actions. I would like to thank each and every one of you. I am positive and think that healing could still happen. Thank you for not judging me. But that you helped me to look whats wronge there, whats my real problem and become a better person Merry Christmas. Thank you.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Merry Christmass!