Is the Dalai Lama a Pedophile?

[Ninas]

Well, here's a Body Language Expert taking a closer look at his actions. He makes some interesting connections.

 

[Haiku]

It’s the timing here and with all these items. Why do you hold onto some piece of knowledge, something that could possibly damage the appearance of another. You do it just for that. Someone out there held onto this fact for the right time, I would suspect that it was because he was failing to do something for someone. We just have too many opponents out there to identify who was the one to release this bomb. I would suspect someone nearby in this case.

It's like the loss of secret documents scandal going on …



What was leaked and who did it. We will never be able to see just what was leaked, probably gone through several hands of redaction by now. But who released this bomb is typically the one that is not exposed or we hear about. This story smells all the way back to the press and who is driving them, the PTB. That usually leads us to whoever has all the money or the one that has all the power, you can guess on both of those.

They are both impact-timing reports to discourage those involved and nothing else. Haiku …

 

[Debra]

Meme Lords are at work...
Too soon?

 

[Bluegazer]

It is true, it is difficult to elucidate if the DL is a pedophile or not. Not only because of the various things to be considered, such as some lack of context in the video of context in the examination of the video, the age of the DL etc.

Scrolling through twitter, I could see the quick reaction of people between those who denounce him and those who defend him, each one with their own arguments. His detractors exposing really ugly things (of which I can't say if they are true):

Here I detect some pro-Chinese propaganda but maybe it happened that way.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1645606806348021762

This one claims:

Did you know that Buddhist monks had male prostitutes?
The kagema were trained to act as women. Since monks could not have contact with women, they used men for sexual purposes.

The DalaiLama's repudiatory act is a reflection of Buddhism in general.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1645783132258353153

Again, I don't know if it's true.

In another twitter thread sharing a link to a website of missionaries going to Tibet to evangelize you can read the following:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1645574406272344070

Budismo "for dummies". Visita a un monasterio tibetano

www.quenotelacuenten.org, sitio web dedicado a la apologética histórica y a la contra - revolución cultural.

www.quenotelacuenten.org

I must warn that the missionaries who are going to evangelize (and this is just my opinion) are not very much to my liking. They are not much different from a Jehovah's Witness knocking on your door on a Sunday. And perhaps the text I am quoting may be a made up thing... although it may not be. I'll tell you why later.

But the interesting part came later; we wanted to talk to a lama. How to do it? We came up with an idea; we would ask one of them (almost all of them were elusive to us, knowing that we were "Christians"), some existential question.

- "What is compassion?" -would be our question.

But we couldn't find someone to ask it to. We knew it would be a good hook to start a dialogue.

After trying in vain with a couple of them, we saw one who had a good face: we crossed him and asked him with an innocent face:

- Javier (PJ): Brother, I am worried and afraid. Tell me, could you tell me where I will go after my death?

And there began the "inter-religious" dialogue, with pardon of the prostituted modern euphemism.

- Buddhist monk (M): that depends on your heart... - he answered.

- PJ: I don't understand; what do you mean it depends on my heart?

- M: Yes, it depends on whether your heart is pure or not.

- PJ: Mmm... could you explain a little better? Because really, this problem has been troubling me for a long time.

- M: If your intention is righteous, whatever you do will always be good, because evil or good is inside your heart.

- PJ: What do you mean, there is no such thing as good and evil?

- M: Yes they exist, but only in your heart.

- PJ: I understand...; then, there is no good and evil as such. They are only within us, aren't they?

- M: That's right," he answered.

-PJ: So, tell me. Here is a child (just with me was my little Indian student to whom I am teaching the Misa de angelis, which I talked about in the previous post): if I were to kill this child because I think it is the best thing for him, would I be doing good or evil?

The monk remained thoughtful... After a few seconds, he answered me with a Jesuit-like question:

- M: But, you would do it with what intention? I mean, would you have a pure heart?

- PJ: Absolutely! - I replied. I don't want this child to suffer hunger, poverty, sickness...; besides, now here, in this area, there is little work and, most probably, it will be difficult for him to earn a living when he grows up. My intention is very pure.

- M: Then you would do a good deed," he replied.

We were perplexed...; we had never heard such an answer before. Astrid, the young Belgian girl who was there, asked an indignant question and Father Frederick added a sharp "innocent" question:

- What if I believe that you too are suffering, you are poor, you are not happy and that, therefore, if we were to kill you we would be doing you some good? Would all this be right? Always with the best of intentions, obviously?

- M: That would be right...

- PJ: So you think that, if we need to populate the area because there are few births, with the best of intentions, we could rape the women to have more children?

The monk remained thoughtful...; we are all relativists, but it is no big deal! And he did not answer, so I insisted:

- PJ: Because if not, you would be accepting that there is some objective good and some objective evil, independent of our intentions and hearts....

- M: Mmm... I should meditate on it some more," he said, following the typical oriental style of answering.

- PJ: Well then. Meditate on it. Whenever you want, we are down here, a kilometer away. Maybe someday, if you go through the village, we could talk a little.

We exchanged phones (he's a modern lama: he has a cell phone) and stayed in touch.

Then I understood why many people in the West embrace this deleterious Eastern philosophy; because it agrees perfectly with what the modern world professes today: a subjectivist relativism but with limits: as long as it does not go against it, because there, we all become Aristotelian-fascists.

All this reminded me of the book Darkness over Tibet by Theodore Illion. And I remember, one of the teachings of the book is that there in Tibet there are philosophical schools that effectively teach this relativism because as Illion explains (as in the fable of the man who gives food to rats at the cost of his own health and the lives of his children) these people assume God's point of view committing sin in the process. That without question is relativism.

At this point, perhaps for the Lama what he did may have been done with some intention that he might consider benign, but which nevertheless I believe demonstrates this relativism. And if we think about it, pedophiles, transsexuals, drag queens, etc. are the ones who most manifest this relativism.

 

[Wandering Star]

Just a thought I just had...

Program them to have certain desires and then provide them, knowing the utterly reprehensible and abject of such action.

They will be yours forever and they will do everything you need.

Given the position and influence of this man, it would not surprise me if he is one more in this dynamic of control of power.

Puppets everywhere.

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

This display just seems to me (a very personal opinion) a furthering of this breaking of all taboos and common decency especially in relation to children. If this behaviour is acceptable to a HOLY man, well then we can all do the same.

Another observation is the complete and absolute dissonance between this touching and exchange of bodily fluids so of speak. and everyone else wearing masks. Total disconnect which I think is on purpose......subliminal messaging maybe???

 

[BHelmet]

For me, it’s more a matter of “is this a holy man?” Rather than “is this a pervert?”

 

[Tuatha de Danaan]

is this a holy man?

Yes BHelmet; I wrote holy in capitals to stress the belief of so many people who do believe he is HOLY.
To watch either live or on the video and still believe a) he is holy and b) not question what in the name of all that's holy are you wearing masks for.? shows that not just critical but basic thinking is absent.

 

[JeanneT]

For me, it’s more a matter of “is this a holy man?” Rather than “is this a pervert?”

This is what I have been going through, exactly. My history includes graduating from a "Buddhist" university with a degree in contemplative psychology. Naropa, was founded by the Tibetan teacher, Trungpa Rinpoche in 1976 and was fully accredited which was a miracle unto itself. As many know, he authored many books but a couple brought to mind are: "Shambhala The Sacred Path of the Warrior" and "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism". While at Naropa, my course load included only a few Buddhist classes that were required along with some weekend meditation instruction. All other classes were varied and fit into one's major. While I honored and can identify with many of the teachings I never considered myself officially a Buddhist. However, the atmosphere was very much Buddhist and it was one great joy of my life to have studied there.
I do remember a day when a student challenged a teacher who had once been in the inner circle of Trungpa Rinpoche about the rumor that he did not hold himself to what one would call high moral standards. Apparently, Trungpa was an alcoholic, cocaine addict, and had multiple sexual interactions with his students. I even heard about orgies but cannot be sure of that. I was shocked and disappointed that one who had written and taught of self mastery and so much more that resonated with me lived his life like that and I must say, I felt a bit cheated. Well, I was already in my senior year when this came up and my experience with the curriculum and teachers was excellent and not available anywhere else and also this was some twenty years after his passing. Still, his picture was in every classroom and hallway, draped with holy scarves and it seemed that he was to be held in high esteem. However, unlike many others there, I did not hold Trungpa up as a "holy man".

And so, for the Dali Lama....I never thought of him as holy either but have admittedly had a soft spot in my heart for him. But while reflecting on how I feel about this new information surfacing, I guess I was hoping or believing that now and then a leader appears on the planet who holds the light in some way or other. The Dali Lama seemed to have that role in my mind. Although he never taught profound lessons in my opinion, only simple things on compassion and peace, etc., he could be a placeholder for the good at least. That was okay for me because at times, the simple truths are comforting and I like to be reminded of them when things get chaotic and complicated.

So, presently, I am going through yet another "life" disappointment in finding out that what often seems to be good, positive and even holy can be a facade. There have been many of those moments in my life and I consider that it is a good thing to learn. Thank goodness there is so much material and thought on this very subject here on the forum and in the material. I would probably stay in a state of denial and confusion most of the time, in a Pollyanna world, if I wasn't in training to see the unseen and looking at reality right and left. And, while in training one can get smacked around emotionally sometimes, as with this.

Currently, I really cannot look at the video and find an excuse, even the "old age" one that I offered up in a previous post. In addition, it actually makes me angry when the official so called apology is so lame and just sounds like the usual big corporate or government vague and cushioned response. So, at this point, I have gone from "wait and see" to just realizing that for me, it is NEVER okay to interact with a child that way, there was no honesty in the official response and therefore, the Dali Lama is just another man who has shown himself as he is and likewise for those around him.

 

[Pecha]

I wonder what kind of effect this has on the general public without such knowledge. The tearing down of a regarded holy figure, to show that those who have regarded him as someone to be revered, only to show that he is a deeply flawed individual.

Doesn't that count as a demolition of sorts (and or an unveiling depending how one views it)? Controlled or not, the effect it may have on others is that it will wear some people down. Transmarginal inhibition and all that. It is a possible pathway towards corruption.. pedophilia is becoming less and less of a taboo among some groups over the years, this may reinforce that in some.

 

[Lyndi]

This is what I have been going through, exactly. My history includes graduating from a "Buddhist" university with a degree in contemplative psychology. Naropa, was founded by the Tibetan teacher, Trungpa Rinpoche in 1976 and was fully accredited which was a miracle unto itself. As many know, he authored many books but a couple brought to mind are: "Shambhala The Sacred Path of the Warrior" and "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism". While at Naropa, my course load included only a few Buddhist classes that were required along with some weekend meditation instruction. All other classes were varied and fit into one's major. While I honored and can identify with many of the teachings I never considered myself officially a Buddhist. However, the atmosphere was very much Buddhist and it was one great joy of my life to have studied there.
I do remember a day when a student challenged a teacher who had once been in the inner circle of Trungpa Rinpoche about the rumor that he did not hold himself to what one would call high moral standards. Apparently, Trungpa was an alcoholic, cocaine addict, and had multiple sexual interactions with his students. I even heard about orgies but cannot be sure of that. I was shocked and disappointed that one who had written and taught of self mastery and so much more that resonated with me lived his life like that and I must say, I felt a bit cheated. Well, I was already in my senior year when this came up and my experience with the curriculum and teachers was excellent and not available anywhere else and also this was some twenty years after his passing. Still, his picture was in every classroom and hallway, draped with holy scarves and it seemed that he was to be held in high esteem. However, unlike many others there, I did not hold Trungpa up as a "holy man".

And so, for the Dali Lama....I never thought of him as holy either but have admittedly had a soft spot in my heart for him. But while reflecting on how I feel about this new information surfacing, I guess I was hoping or believing that now and then a leader appears on the planet who holds the light in some way or other. The Dali Lama seemed to have that role in my mind. Although he never taught profound lessons in my opinion, only simple things on compassion and peace, etc., he could be a placeholder for the good at least. That was okay for me because at times, the simple truths are comforting and I like to be reminded of them when things get chaotic and complicated.

So, presently, I am going through yet another "life" disappointment in finding out that what often seems to be good, positive and even holy can be a facade. There have been many of those moments in my life and I consider that it is a good thing to learn. Thank goodness there is so much material and thought on this very subject here on the forum and in the material. I would probably stay in a state of denial and confusion most of the time, in a Pollyanna world, if I wasn't in training to see the unseen and looking at reality right and left. And, while in training one can get smacked around emotionally sometimes, as with this.

Currently, I really cannot look at the video and find an excuse, even the "old age" one that I offered up in a previous post. In addition, it actually makes me angry when the official so called apology is so lame and just sounds like the usual big corporate or government vague and cushioned response. So, at this point, I have gone from "wait and see" to just realizing that for me, it is NEVER okay to interact with a child that way, there was no honesty in the official response and therefore, the Dali Lama is just another man who has shown himself as he is and likewise for those around him.

Have been noticing my reactions too. Spent nearly a decade spending a lot of time with Tibetans, politically, writing and interviewing as well, and in Buddhist practice, Nyingma, oldest lineage, so Dzogchen, other practices, even visited near the border in Sikkim. What turns my stomach on this clip is the boundarylessness. I don't get the paedophilia, just doesn't jibe, but the custom itself, the tongue, my own reactions of revulsion are more on the ignoring of the little guy's personal space and the lessons hammered into us in Covid; those people with masks and he's sticking his tongue at a kid's mouth. That really pisses me off and triggers nausea. So in short, my own conditioning makes it 'disgusting' but just on the movements, it's an invasion and endangering. Maybe DL is a paedophile? I get 'no'. But he's been treated as a deity practically most of his life and this is what slips out.

The lamas are like a living mandala for practitioners, not completely a human individual, which is a strange position to be in for a human, it seems to me.

I've attended his teachings those decades ago, he did a great job of teaching, a really good job. I remember those times very happy for those opportunities in Toronto and New York.

 

[Lyndi]

PS - afterthought, the infiltaration, even hyperdimensionally or something like that, of a good organization, or people offering useful, enlightening information, is something I've felt/seen. They are unaware of the change but their vibe changes and there's damage and rot. Haiku and Pecha wrote above about the timing, the extraordinary press this got, the reach of it. It seems like a decapitation of someone people looked to for decency.... Awareness and self observation are so necessary from what I've seen and there isn't enough information, like we have here, to know how to respond and protect.

 

[BHelmet]

Interesting. So, since many here are knowledgeable about Tibetan Buddhism, did no one else stumble across the guy claiming to be the true Dalai Lama? IF the idea of a (intentionally?) reincarnating soul/spiritual leader is true, and this DL is a clown, then the current DL is not that soul. Nor will the next one be either since it would seem the process has been interfered with and interrupted.

As for dragging a hero through the mud, that does serve the agenda of those who would drag us all through the mud.

 

[BHelmet]

I guess this calls to mind questioning the whole concept. The Lama is connected only to Tibet and the Tibetan people and a certain type of Buddhism? He reincarnates only as a male? One of those things that if you stop and think about it, it does raise some fundamental questions.

 

[Sol Logos]

I recalled looking a little into DLs darker side before too based on Trimondi stuff: Trimondi Online Magazine

Re: Pro-China bias on SOTT?

An interesting article here that gives a different much darker view of the Dalai Lama:

https://inpursuitofhappiness.wordpress.com/2006/12/31/tibetian-dalai-lama-not-what-you-think/

Here's the book it refers to, seems highly researched and referenced:

http://www.american-buddha.com/shadow.dalai.htm

There’s also a number of other posts about that that also referred some of the Trimondi writers.

Yes, weaker, yet it was not so good in the past as Michael Parenti writes (it's long and explores the political and religious controls in Tibet's history - this is an updated 2007 version and the original was posted in the forum)

Snip



It is interesting that you started this thread up again, thorbiorn, as I was looking at this stuff in more detail a few years ago and saved what I was thinking - noted the CIA involvement at their training facility in Colorado and exactly who was being recruited. However, was going to post all this in the 'Darkness in Tibet' thread as a revisited post, yet here you bring up a great deal that is related. As for Shugden, there may be duplication here, yet from my standpoint at looking at this, much seems to have to do with oracles – which oracles and why comes up below. In this, though, it is like a long standing oracle war between camps. The camps are state vs. people

So, notwithstanding the book above, and being no expert at all - just with an interest of the history in the region and the practices; which happen to vary among groups, including the divisions between groups along political lines, the following might or might not be of interest among some of the reasons of these divisions.

This started off while looking again at secular factions within Tibet – and the why of it. What came to my attention came under the name Dorje Shugden, which has now been cited above by you, thorbiorn (thanks). What and who this is seems to be of importance, and I did not know why at the time. Upon looking, though, what became initially of interest was that this was (and still is) descendants within lineage of oracles. There is the peoples oracle and the state oracle, and they are at odds. Monks either gravitate to one or the other, and generally in the past (and still today) people in cities and towns favor one over the other.

Posted elsewhere on the form dealt with the oracle of Delphian, and this was one part from MP Hall’s book that was noted:



I’ll come back to Dorje Shugden, yet then it was noticed that opposite to Dorje Shugden and the vast network within the sects represented by the Yellow Hats and the Dalai Lama’s (DM from here on) school – the Gelug, follows the precepts through Dharma in the Buddhist teachings. Dharma “is a key concept with multiple meanings in the Indian religions – Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism. There is no single-word translation for dharma in Western languages.” Dharma - Wikipedia In Vedic Sanskrit it is the “bearer, supporter". In Rigveda it is “sustainer" and "supporter" (of deities)”. There is more to say of the word, yet it is hard to pin down and it is not translatable - and those that have done so have different meanings for it.

Whatever the case, it relates to the interactions of the ‘deities’ and the deities in Buddhist culture and religion are varied and important to the people.

So, one thing that might be asked is what is it with these different deities used in practice, and the practices differ from Japan to the US while practitioners (the people) align to different teaching factions with their leanings to certain deities and the Dharma that supports them. Hierarchies, though, are similar; Buddha, Lamas, Karmapa’s, Rinpoche’s, Oracles (spirits through mediums) etc.

Of the oracle, Shugden, I’ve asked myself why has it stirred up so much controversy (he is reported as being an old important deity to assist/train monks in meditation and as a source for oracle/divination, I think) while being prohibited/outlawed by the DL for a while until there was a so-called softening of the DL edict. What happened here and why?

You can read a little of it here in 'Charting the Shugden Interdiction in the Western Himalaya'
(Martin A. Mills
Anthropology of Religion
University of Aberdeen)

whereby Mills writes:


Whatever the case is, what I did not realize, and was rather surprised at, directly relates to not one but two oracles (and many minor oracles). Shugden has briefly been described, yet the DL himself now, as a state and politicle leader, consults a completely separate oracle, the state ‘Nechung’ oracle. This oracle is often accompanied at the same time by different oracles that interact or act separately. Well that was new.

And here is where divisions between groups seem to have been set up (one aspect), as the DL camp decrees, forbids Dorje Shugden consultation (in the 1990’s certainly). From what can be gathered, the DL camp sees Shugden as more devilish, or interfering with the political, because often there is a political message, as there is with the Nechung oracle. There are two videos that look at the oracles from two sides. One, provides a view of this from within India, the DL’s camp, and the work to suppress the Shugden oracle, which the people are not happy about. Also, the western camp, including the US government, align with the DL, which gets even more complicated.

Okay, so watched this film titled ‘The Dark Side of the Dalai Lama’ which captures Tibetans in India (exiled) and some of the schools/monks. Shugden comes up often in this film; it is not a new film (1998 or so), however it was interesting how some of the old masters said that they had wished they were dead before the decrees came forth from the DL - they are caught in conflict. The monks shown in the beginning are well versed in logic – they practiced the arts of rhetoric and such, and that seems to intertwine so much in their practices.

In the film you can directly catch the DL and the Nechung oracle at the 14:30 mark. The film also brings up the ‘old’ Tibet with the hierarchy of control of the people (15:45) that lasted 350 yrs. When the DL fled Tibet in 1959, he did so after consulting the oracle Nechung, it was said (see 20:35), whereby the oracle sat forward and drew exactly the escape route on paper. However the monks near the end of the film (21:30) who were the original ‘body guards’ of the DL who lead him out of Tibet in 1959, said (one directly) of his original oracle instructions for the DL, which were invaluable in saving his life, and those were not Nechung, it was provided by the Oracle (deity Shugden). These were precise Southern route instructions. Most articles refer to the former oracle and do not mention the latter. Anyway, this monk tells us that the DL now disavows Shugden (even though he is from the same linage) and the monk said that this “contradicts the law of truth”. Truth comes up again later. There is also one old monks who seems to have been at great odds and pains with their duty to their holiness, and now with the will of the exiled government.

In the film, I’m getting that Shogden was the protector of the Dharma’s, and that usurps power from the DL’s camp as it is ingrained in people’s minds. However, the DL says later of Shugden (after politicle commotion) that’s it’s not religion (it is a practice), and then later said he was not threatened by it; hence there is some lifting of the decree in words, yet not completely in actions?

What is the status today exactly? Has the decree ended or is it still in effect, and if so, has time changed it so that the deity is not brought up anymore? Elsewhere in the 'Darkness' thread is also the discussion that is important concerning the Karmapa, and in this case, like in no other time, there are two named; one appointed as is correct in terms of tradition by Sharma Rinpoche and the alternate was appointed by the DL camp. In appointing, this follows the death of the older Karmapa and the lineages seek out ‘signs’ and dreams for his successor. In this case, Karmapa 16 died and left no letters (usually signs/clues to find his successor), and Sharmapa Rinpoche sought a successor out in other ways, yet low and behold the camp aligned with the DL found letters and found their Karmapa – with lots of intrigue in-between groups, some violent.

So, I wanted to know more and found here on this website called Dorje Shogden, the author Michaela Smith bringing up some further points:



It continues:



Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje (TTD) was the Sharmapa’s (Shamar) candidate and Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje (OTJ) was the DL’s.

From wiki you can read about the ‘Karmapa Controversy’ Karmapa controversy - Wikipedia and I can’t attest its balance, yet here is the breakdown in short:



I’ve heard both Karmapa’s talk and the DL’s candidate, OTJ, more recently – and he was lamenting of what has being going on with politics, and he does not want to be a politician and he is acknowledging the rift between sects, and appears to be making some waves on the DL’s side just as much. See here - The ramifications of Karmapa’s shocking special message | Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama – Spreading Dharma Together

Basically, OTJ says:

1. He did not receive a proper spiritual education.
2. He was forced to be involved in politics, something he was ill-prepared to deal with.
3. So not only did he fail to receive a complete spiritual education, but he was also not given the tools to succeed in a secular environment.
4. He has been controlled for most of his life and implied that his managers and staff failed him.
5. To this day, he does not even have a monastery of his own.
6. There is no end in sight to the Karma Kagyu split.
7. The CTA has a trend of splitting lineages and keeping them divided.

Note: CTA is Central Tibetan Administration (CTA; Tibetan leadership in Dharamsala):

8. His speaking out may encourage other dually-recognized lamas to speak out.
9. Ogyen Trinley reiterated that he is a normal person.
10. Hence doubt is cast over the Dalai Lama’s recognition of him as the rightful Karmapa candidate.
11. Most listeners come away with the conclusion that Ogyen Trinley is planning to abdicate.
12. For a Karmapa candidate to so explicitly state that he is depressed is unprecedented. {pretty human of him}
13. Either way, it is clear that the CTA are losing control.

You can watch him from the original link.

So, there are two Karmapa's, and the one recognized by the DL has a few things to say concerning that camp, which would not have made the 'CT Administration' happy to hear, nor many of the priest monks on that side.

Okay, moving away from the Karmapa’s and back to the oracles, here is a short clip from the Dorjie Shogden website from a mainstream media clips, among others - the DL weighs in – and this seems to have been quite the wedge issue that could dived something like 4 million Tibetans.

Also, the decrees (and charges) have entered formal documents against doctors, nurses, teachers etc - civil people, to renounce their Shugden practice or resign. Some people cannot get visas to leave or other papers processed as the administrative controls are becoming more locked down.

As some say, whatever you want to practice, practice, but this is not being allowed.

I listened and read a whole lot on the Drakpa Gyeltsen (I think reincarnated from Shugden & the fifth DL) - the former was alleged to have been murdered by servants of the 5th DL and bad times followed - this is depicted in this animated film on the life of Shogden here - some of it seems myth, such as no accounts from the papers of the 5th DL ever mention this, although Shogden is mentioned - see here:



So, when I said protector of the Dharma’s above, the words were used in the context of Protector of all the Dhaama which is against Unsuitable Mara.

Something about a lot of this seemed, as a thought at least, to be in the hyperdimensonal realm - what I mean was mentioned above in that in Delphi it was reported that people, on behalf of their society at large, would approach the oracle with questions, and response would provide instructions; like Shugden is said to have done in life and from beyond, on events and people – like who was up to no good etc. I can see that a political structure would not especially like that if followers were forewarned against them. Does this make the DL camp fear the Shugden oracle?

I watched the interview with Gyalwang Drukpa (Drukpa Kagyu) and thought it interesting - here is what it says in the article:



I was a little confused over this - who’s who, Karma Kagyu (is known) - so there is all this parallel stuff going on; Shugden, Karmapa etc.

Elsewhere I read:

In 2016 it appears that the DL changed his mind:



So okay, yet this seems to be in India and parts of Tibet, yet I’m still not sure.

Somewhere in other posts are cited Victor & Victoria Trimondi who are not so keen on the DL, yet I don't know what is embellished in what they say (as a caution). In their 'The Shadow of the Dalai Lama' (Part II - 7), it brings up the Oracle wars. They seem to have done a pretty good job at bringing in the history and divisions, and they provide mention (as seen in the first film) back when there was murder going on (two children) and the blame was put on Shugden followers. Either that was so or not, as they reference. It's long yet added for their view:

THE WAR OF THE ORACLE GODS AND THE SHUGDEN AFFAIR




Cont...