Israel official: Strike on Iran possible

[Guardian]

another thing i think people need to keep in mind, is that 'iran', 'israel', 'syria' and other 'countries' are mostly inhabited by non-aggressive individuals. 'israel' doesn't go to war... it's army does.

I don't agree with this statement when it comes to Israel. "Israel" is a recent creation of western powers, and the people who've immigrated there know they're going into a war zone to occupy land stolen from its legitimate residents within the last 50 years or so. They know they're flat out stealing Palestinian lands, and they're going to have to fight for them, so they are CHOOSING to "go to war" to take something that doesn't belong to them.

The same could be said for the US a few hundred years ago when this land was stolen from the Indians.

 

[Ðekel]

Guardian,

yes, i understand your point.
even though Israelis or Americans are non-combatant, they still inhabit land taken over..

i guess everyone is on land that originally 'belonged' to someone else.

people who live in the U.S. or in Israel or on any other land that has been inhabited in recent geologic history by foreigners, are not necessarily those who originally migrated there..
many are the sons / daughters, grandsons / granddaughters of people who migrated and so forth.

i can't think of a land that hasn't been conquered at some point in known history.

it's become quite a tangled mess. :/

 

[Ðekel]

anart,

i'm not trying to be right about anything.
this is a discussion.
i'm not here to argue.

please understand.

 

[Keit]

another thing i think people need to keep in mind, is that 'iran', 'israel', 'syria' and other 'countries' are mostly inhabited by non-aggressive individuals. 'israel' doesn't go to war... it's army does.

I don't agree with this statement when it comes to Israel. "Israel" is a recent creation of western powers, and the people who've immigrated there know they're going into a war zone to occupy land stolen from its legitimate residents within the last 50 years or so. They know they're flat out stealing Palestinian lands, and they're going to have to fight for them, so they are CHOOSING to "go to war" to take something that doesn't belong to them.

Totally agree. Except for a small minority, Israel's army has a full support of the population. There is even a widely used saying "let the IDF win", not to mention unofficial discrimination at certain workplaces against job applicants who didn't do the service.

 

[Guardian]

yes, i understand your point.
even though Israelis or Americans are non-combatant

No that's not what I'm saying...quite the opposite in fact. I think the Israelis are VERY much combatants because they're still actively engaged in the outright theft by force of Palestinian land.

i guess everyone is on land that originally 'belonged' to someone else.

I don't think that's true, in fact as I understand it, the entire concept of "owning" land didn't come about until agriculture and monotheism. One of the main reasons American Indians were initially dispossessed is that the entire concept of "owning land" was foreign to them.

it's become quite a tangled mess. :/

Not really. Israel is using ancient history and what people did hundreds/thousands of years ago to justify the mass slaughter of innocent people for their land in modern times.

 

[Ðekel]

Guardian,

i guess everyone is on land that originally 'belonged' to someone else.

I don't think that's true, in fact as I understand it, the entire concept of "owning" land didn't come about until agriculture and monotheism. One of the main reasons American Indians were initially dispossessed is that the entire concept of "owning land" was foreign to them.

yes, this is why i place the word belonged within apostrophes.
and i think this is is a crucial point.

"owning land" is indeed an invention.
how could anyone own part of the planet ?

 

[Gonzo]

Hi transientP,
I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say Israelis are non-combattant. Are you referring to those who set up villages, against their government's wishes, on Palestinian land, burn their olive groves and take over their homes or are you referring to the larger population who continue to elect an expansionist regime that refuses to punish their people who steal land, who wall in and refuse access to and through Palestine and make constant threats of military action on their neighbours?

There are many Israelis, I'm sure, who disapprove of such behaviour, but they are not the majority.

Regarding the term "all out war", this is subjective, so I'm not certain what one means when they use the term. However, when you consider the assassinations of scientists, launching attacks and reconnaissance missions from drones, the bombing of a munitions dump (or whatever it was) and other clandestine activities sponsored by Israel and the US, and combine it with the sabre rattling going on on all sides of the fence, I would say a war of sorts has already begun. It wouldn't take much escalation, IMO, for this to become what some would consider an "all out war". War is often occurring before it is officially declared. In this case, an all out war could simply be dropping a few atomic bombs and letting the dust settle without sending in a single soldier.

Since we have come to this forum to clean our machines and grow in awareness, I believe participation gives permission to have ourselves unmasked and our buffers uncovered by those best suited for the task.

IMHO, anart is expert in scratch tests and triggering defensive reactions to reveal that which we cannot see. I have never seen her waste energy, so I have learned to trust that anything she says or does on this forum has a specific purpose. She does not get entangled in the emotionality that many of us still confuse as thinking and, as a result, does an excellent job pointing out things like emotionality, legal nitpicking, inconsistent or illogical thinking, and our contradictory behaviour.

Instead of reacting, try to let the emotional, defensive side lower itself enough to see the deeper truth she is showing.

Gonzo

 

[cholas]

i'm not trying to be right about anything.
this is a discussion.
i'm not here to argue.

please understand.

Definitely doesn't appear to be the case transientP.

Paralleling Gonzo's post, can you fathom that what others see might be hidden from you? That what is being suggested to you might be truly understood thus appreciated? It has potential, after all to help you and that is, naturally, why it is being offered.

Mirrors and all......

 

[Ðekel]

Gonzo, cholas,

Instead of reacting, try to let the emotional, defensive side lower itself enough to see the deeper truth she is showing.

Paralleling Gonzo's post, can you fathom that what others see might be hidden from you? That what is being suggested to you might be truly understood thus appreciated? It has potential, after all to help you and that is, naturally, why it is being offered.

alright.
what has been suggested / offered ?
i ask this in cander.
anart ?

cannot someone simply not desire to be argumentative ?
i believe that 'wanting to be right' is a main reason for a lot of strife in general.
i do not want to be 'right' because i fail to see the point in it.
anything and everything could be 'right' depending on the point of view.

i don't understand why it seems to be obligatory to want to be right or defend something or some notion.
i'm being honest here.

 

[bngenoh]

Hi transientP,

Didn't feel that you were being discoutreous to me at all, it simply seemed as if you were posing questions that were naturally illicited from you, that being said reading all the posts after "I" responded to you, I can see where everyone else is coming from.

This:

IMHO, anart is expert in scratch tests and triggering defensive reactions to reveal that which we cannot see. I have never seen her waste energy, so I have learned to trust that anything she says or does on this forum has a specific purpose. She does not get entangled in the emotionality that many of us still confuse as thinking and, as a result, does an excellent job pointing out things like emotionality, legal nitpicking, inconsistent or illogical thinking, and our contradictory behaviour.

Instead of reacting, try to let the emotional, defensive side lower itself enough to see the deeper truth she is showing.

will greatly aid you because "I" see that what they were saying to you was true. BTW anart isn't an "expert in scratch tests that trigger defensive reactions to reveal that which we cannot see," she's a freaking master, yoda class. :D What she has always commented to me, and others has greatly helped me smash the illusions "I" have about myself, others, and reality, and "I" truly thank her for that.

 

[Ðekel]

bngenoh,

thank you and i'm glad to hear you have not taken offence, as that was not my intention at all.
as i have said, this is a discussion, and the moment i understood where you were coming from i wrote that i respect your point of view, and i was being sincere.

if anart is indeed a 'master yoda'.. i am all ears.
we are all learning all the time, and i cannot fathom an end to learning.

 

[bngenoh]

if anart is indeed a 'master yoda'.. i am all ears.
we are all learning all the time, and i cannot fathom an end to learning.

She's already given you loads, did you reflect on what she, and the other forum members said to you?

 

[Gonzo]

As often happens on this forum, a person might respond to a post, speaking specifically to the subject at hand. However, if appropriate, someone with insight might notice something in the respondent's words with respect to their programs or illusions that is worthy of pointing out. Upon reading the comments, the respondent misses the deeper message and deals with the superficial context - the original topic of discussion, not realizing (or willfully ignoring), for whatever reason, that the topic has temporarily changed away from the original subject to the new subject: whatever the insightful person recognized.

This, I believe, is what is happening with you transientP. You seem to keep coming back to the original subject and the substance of your post and cannot let go of it enough to shift the paradigm and see the discussion is about you (or one of your programs) and not necessarily the subject of war, minutiae or the right use of energy. Is has become apples and oranges.

This is why you seem to feel an argument is forming when, in fact, effort is being made to have you shift the paradigm away from the apples and over to the oranges.

If you go back to the beginning, you will see the shift was away from the topic to your suggesting t bngenoh's energy might better be directed away from the minutiae and toward the work. Anart commented that bngenoh was merely paying attention to the reality around us, as SotT was also doing.

If you hadn't reacted at that point, you would have been able to receive the information. Instead, your predator or wounded ego created several dance steps to fool you into a thought loop to avoid dealing with anart's comment.

Everything that came after was in response to the dance steps you laid out and efforts of others to steer you back.

At least that's how I see it.

Had you allowed yourself to feel the heat and delved further, you might have benefited greatly from the momentum. However, things have cooled down so it might be that the best you can get from this is an understanding of how to take advantage of the next opportunity when it arises, if you are able.

I hope this makes some sense. I don't feel proficient in explaining it, but I've seen it happen enough, even with me in the hot seat, that I appreciate these opportunities when they arise.

Gonzo

 

[bngenoh]

Had you allowed yourself to feel the heat and delved further, you might have benefited greatly from the momentum. However, things have cooled down so it might be that the best you can get from this is an understanding of how to take advantage of the next opportunity when it arises, if you are able.

I hope this makes some sense. I don't feel proficient in explaining it, but I've seen it happen enough, even with me in the hot seat, that I appreciate these opportunities when they arise.

Second that Gonzo, "I" love it when the predator rears it's head in me whether through interaction with the forum, people around me, or simply when i am meditating or in introspection. "I" laugh heartily, and make fun of it, saying, cmon man your so obvious, getting hungry ey bwahaha :D.

 

[Gonzo]

Wow, wish I was that far along. I'm still observing my reactions and, if I'm fortunate to notice I am reacting, I have to do some self talk. Reminding myself that I can't trust my thinking, to leave and come back to the situation later if possible. I have noticed a few red flags, like feeling threatened or hurt or that I'm just not explaining myself well. I also notice that when I slip into emotional thinking, I experience a severe narrowing in my ability to consider other perspectives, getting into either/or situations.

Gonzo