Journals and the Work

[theos]

Hello all,

This is only my third post. I've been lurking through the forum for over a year but could never let go of my self-importance long enough to become involved. I've read Gurdjieff, Castenada, Ospensky and I'm just currently finishing up Myth of Sanity and Trapped in the Mirror. Unholy Hungers is next. I've kept a journal since I was 15 years old. (I'm 35 now). Lately, I've been writing of how badly I need to work on self-remembering and looking out for programs. Duh! I don't know why it just now occurred to me to go back and read all of my diaries from start to finish. I guess I just wasn't ready before. (I'd always secretly dreaded it.)

So, I read them and I'm quite shocked to say the least. It was difficult to read through the entries without judging -- just observing. I managed to get through them all but at times it was cringe-inducing. Other times I felt as if I were receiving mental shocks. Still, other times I nearly laughed my face off. Most surprising was seeing the numerous little "i's" taking over -- my handwriting was even inconsistent. In some instances I could see how a buffer was created and certain programs ran over and over. And the LIES! The sheer mechanicalness of me! It was literally mindboggling and I was just looking at 20 years of things that one of my little "i's" chose(?) to write about!
(On a side note: I made a brief, one time entry years ago about seeing "weird lightning flashes" in my living room that "freaked me out" at about 2:30am, after which I went back to sleep and never mentioned again. My first thought was ,"Oh no! First, I find out I'm crazy and now I discover I've been abducted by aliens too!" )

This was a very profound experience for me and made me even more determined to work on the WORK. This experience came right on the heels of of receiving proof that the long-suspected and secretly diagnosed (by me) narcissist from whom I recently split is just that. One of the women he'd been having an affair with called me. ( I really didn't know but I wasn't suprised.) I suspect that she thought I would be upset, but we eventually ended up sharing notes. She was seriously frustrated with his lies and even asked me to tell her about Narcissistic Personality Disorder ...after I let the cat out of the bag, so to speak. (Not a violation of her free will, osit ) Thanks SOTT. If I didn't know what I know about NPD, the Work and recognizing programs I would be on the floor right now. Instead, it was one of the most joyous experiences of my life.

The C's were right: Learning is fun and Knowledge Protects.

Anyway, I thought I'd just share a bit. Has anyone else used their diaries in the Work?

Cha

 

[Aiming]

Hi Chachachick!

Yes, I've also used my journal in the Work. That cringing thing I know well. I'm like shakin my head at what I'd been writing, all these unnerving i's and programs and lies to myself, and fears, and on and on.
When I was a teen (and still far from only an idea of Working) I used to reread my diary entries quite frequently, and everything I found that did not match my self-image, I just ripped the pages off!! Talk about sleep and shoving the darkness under the rug, start from scratch, tabula rasa..

A journal might help in the Work, as in getting an overview of one's mechanicalness, programs, i's and lies.

But as far as I know, beginning with the Work would kind of demand another way of 'writing journal'.

Your post is somehow in time: because I've just recently started to write in my journal in the way we all are writing here on the forum, that is writing as if I would here (just a lil mo private), considering everything that is written very carefully and analyzing anything that comes out of myself and examining each of it closely and trying to get behind, beneath, and above the scene.

Well, I'm still testing this, I've no clue whether it will actually help me see more. Especially becuz there's nobody to hold up a mirror to my blind spots. I started it tho, because writing has always been helping me getting clear on 'things', getting some kind of order into everything, kind of a self-therapy. Although one has to make the shift from mechanical 'journaling' and thereby moving within wishful area towards critical 'journaling', sincerely considering and ripping apart each bit. or so I think. And I'm not saying I'm there.
But I thought I could begin with this method, write about all my observations and examine them as much as current knowledge and awareness allows. And at some point this method might be superfluous because of increased awareness and knowledge. Who knows? I don't.

fwiw

 

[Aiming]

Hello all,

This is only my third post. I've been lurking through the forum for over a year but could never let go of my self-importance long enough to become involved.

For what it's worth, it's good that you're beginning to overcome your self-importance. Welcome! :)

I myself am having so many doubt programs, insecurity programs and that Negative Introject - all trying to keep me down low at full force so to say. It even seems there're gettin stronger the more I'm posting on the forum. With each and every bit of what I write there's a great fear that I might be doing something wrong and get expelled, abandoned, so to say.

So it seems this whole thing about posting here is like an ongoing process of ever-looking inside you and by studying and applying the psychology books, getting yourself some essential healing and a blueprint of healthy functioning, there'll come the time when you've settled or are handling the intial programs that once refrained you from participating.
fwiw


edit: In case you've not already done it, I'd suggest reading this thread link, just stumpled upon it myself. Recapitulation and journals are being discussed and it sure is helpful.

edit: I don't know, this in fact should link to The Work/Recapitulation, but somehow it doesn't work.

Moderator: I fixed your link. See here under insert hyperlink to discover the best way to do it.

 

[theos]

Thanks Essence,

I too have noticed a difference in my journal writing. It's much more Work focused with an effort on banishing the lies I tell myself. I think I may have come around to embracing the notion that no one can escape alone, as Gurdjieff said. I have no other like minded friends or relatives so networking with other forum-ites is the only way I have now of advancing in the Work. I don't want to fall back into slumber.

Thanks for the link on Recapitulation and journals. I'll read it asap.

cha

 

[bedower]

Hi Chachachick, and welcome to the forum.

You wrote:

I managed to get through them all but at times it was cringe-inducing.

If I have understood some of the forum threads correctly, we experience these 'cringe-inducing' moments when our Predator mind feels threatened by discovery. The 'cringe' is its self-defence mechanism to deflect us from a certain path; i.e. when we begin to question ourself and our motives for a certain action. When we begin to retake control of ourself, in other words. This was evidenced in your 'shock' at rereading your journals, and thinking, in effect: 'Was I really like that?'

Essence wrote:

I've no clue whether it will actually help me see more. Especially becuz there's nobody to hold up a mirror to my blind spots.

There is, on this forum, someone who will do exactly that, and much to your benefit...mentioning no names

It even seems there're gettin stronger the more I'm posting on the forum. With each and every bit of what I write there's a great fear that I might be doing something wrong and get expelled, abandoned, so to say.

Yes, that goes for myself, too. But this fear is predator-induced; another of it's self-defence mechanisms. With effort, and that's not easy sometimes (for me, at least), this fear can be overcome. When it is, you have gained another step, osit.

This forum is a great place to be, and good luck with your Work. :)

 

[Aiming]

Hi Namaste! Thanks for fixing my link and for giving me the link to how to fix a link myself! ;) (should've known, but hurry was drivin me, sorrys)


Hi Chacha, you've mentioned this:

I have no other like minded friends or relatives so networking with other forum-ites is the only way I have now of advancing in the Work. I don't want to fall back into slumber.

I think there're quite a few if not most around here whose social environment does not provide people who are on the Quest for Truth.
The resulting feeling of lonelieness seems to be pretty common among those of us.

And I personally am questioning the value of making friends with the sleeping (which is of course not to say I's awake), that is with the non-colinear.
Cuz why make friends, if they would never understand you, never feel what is deeply moving you, nerver grasp what is essential to grasp for you,
and never capable of relating to you and you to them?

Those who have close friends also doing the Work, they are, well I guess, lucky.
For the rest of us, it seems to be lesson profile. Or circumstances relating to the saying "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".
Or, modified and adapted: When the person is ready, his 'kinship' will appear.

We're here on this forum and it's so heart-warming and hope-inducing a gift that it's actually beyond words. A simple thank you now and then (and donations, as financial situation allows) might give a sign of appreciation but will hardly ever, or so I feel, convey the momentousness of gratitude.
A lighthouse in the darkness indeed!!!
By the way: Thank you!!! *bouquet of flowers* :)

So as long as we're not ready to live near 'our colinear kinship', we should use our inner solitude.
Use it to study, use it to self-observe, use it to work on ourselves.
We probably need an important bunch of lessons to qualify for living near other Seekers.
It seems, this inner solitude (perceived by us, or at least me, as lonelieness and longing) is nothing more than necessary
for us. Plain and simple: a lesson.
Being thrown back to ourselves - now handle it. Use this specific time - or don't.
And rejoice that this forum exists!
Without it, who knows where we would stand, each of us.


Hello Bedower!

Essence wrote:

I've no clue whether it will actually help me see more. Especially becuz there's nobody to hold up a mirror to my blind spots.

There is, on this forum, someone who will do exactly that, and much to your benefit...mentioning no names

--> :)

Yes, that goes for myself, too. But this fear is predator-induced; another of it's self-defence mechanisms. With effort, and that's not easy sometimes (for me, at least), this fear can be overcome. When it is, you have gained another step, osit.

Thanks for sharing, Bedower, and good luck with your Work, too! :)

For what it's worth.

 

[theos]

Essence said:

And I personally am questioning the value of making friends with the sleeping (which is of course not to say I's awake), that is with the non-colinear.
Cuz why make friends, if they would never understand you, never feel what is deeply moving you, nerver grasp what is essential to grasp for you,
and never capable of relating to you and you to them?

I was just thinking about this topic today. I really don't want to become close with people who aren't awake and Working. It seems like it would be a great distraction.

Essence said:

So as long as we're not ready to live near 'our colinear kinship', we should use our inner solitude.
Use it to study, use it to self-observe, use it to work on ourselves.
We probably need an important bunch of lessons to qualify for living near other Seekers.
It seems, this inner solitude (perceived by us, or at least me, as lonelieness and longing) is nothing more than necessary
for us. Plain and simple: a lesson.
Being thrown back to ourselves - now handle it. Use this specific time - or don't.
And rejoice that this forum exists!
Without it, who knows where we would stand, each of us.

I'm well acquainted with lonliness and longing. I've never considered my solitude a plus until now. This may be the first time that I can be alone and not lonely.

 

[gwb1995]

Hi Namaste! Thanks for fixing my link and for giving me the link to how to fix a link myself! ;) (should've known, but hurry was drivin me, sorrys)


Hi Chacha, you've mentioned this:

I have no other like minded friends or relatives so networking with other forum-ites is the only way I have now of advancing in the Work. I don't want to fall back into slumber.

I think there're quite a few if not most around here whose social environment does not provide people who are on the Quest for Truth.
The resulting feeling of lonelieness seems to be pretty common among those of us.

I am of the same mind myself and think that dedicating myself to the work is THE thing to do. I have wasted much time these past several years and it comes back to not 'commiting myself' to the work!! It is my focus now and I have much to learn........

Learning is fun,

Gwb

[Moderation : moved quote marks]

 

[PepperFritz]

I personally am questioning the value of making friends with the sleeping (which is of course not to say I's awake), that is with the non-colinear. Cuz why make friends, if they would never understand you, never feel what is deeply moving you, nerver grasp what is essential to grasp for you,and never capable of relating to you and you to them?

I really don't want to become close with people who aren't awake and Working. It seems like it would be a great distraction.

I understand and can relate to what you both are saying. The feeling of isolation as you begin to awaken is very real. And I can understand how, as you come to realize the value in awakening, there might be a reflexive impulse to turn away from anything that you think might distract you from that. However, it's important to remember that Gurdjieff stressed that the Work is not meant to be carried out in isolation from the world, but within the context of everyday life; that we should undertake the Work

while remaining in the usual conditions of life, continuing to do the usual work, preserving former relations with people, and without renouncing or giving up anything....

If we were to isolate ourselves from all but "awake individuals", we would be pretty lonely indeed; and what kind of work on ourselves can be accomplished in isolation? Gurdjieff stresses that we should begin the Work wherever we find ourselves, and that wherever we find ourselves is where we need to be and the lessons we need to learn. That means that we need to utilize our immediate environment, and the people in it, in order to observe ourselves and others. Limiting our interactions with others could limit our opportunities for learning. As another forum member recently wrote:

In doing the Work the way one perceives friends and friendships changes a lot. You begin to see manipulations where you didn't guess they were, and you also see there were no negative things where you used to think there were such. But I think that as long as we have some mechanicalness, relationships to people who are even more mechanical and unaware of the Work gives us a lot of mirror images of aspects of ourselves we could hardly acknowledge if we didn't have the interaction and friction with them.

Of course, there are different levels of "friendship", "closeness", social interactions, etc. If someone finds it difficult to maintain a "friendship" with someone without "sharing all" with that person, then perhaps they need the practice of learning to discern what to share with whom, and when. I think part of the Work is learning to strike a very fine balance that allows us to BE in the world, but not OF the world. For how are we to master concepts and practices like Strategic Self-Enclosure, External Consideration, Objective Observation, etc. if not within the context of everyday interactions with ordinary people? How are we to observe our own behaviour within relationships if we avoid relationships with ordinary people? How are we to evaluate another's level of "sleep" if we don't spend time getting to know them to some extent? And just what do we mean by "closeness"? We often mistake mutual feeding for "closeness", and the only way to really explore those issues is within the context of real everyday relationships. As we grow in the Work, our relationships with others will change naturally, without the need to set up artificial boundaries. In the end, the onus is on us to constantly remember the Work, no matter who we may be interacting with, not on other people. If we fall back asleep, the blame lies with us, not with others.

I also wonder whether you might want to consider the degree of Self Importance and Self Consideration in the above-quoted statements. To me they imply a certain amount of judgement, as well of a sense of "If I can't have the satisfaction of sharing my complete self with another, what's in it for me?" -- as opposed to "What can I learn about myself from this friendship?" It seems to me that it would be more Externally Considerate to think not so much about our own needs, but to strive to understand others, and in doing so understand ourselves, in order to relate to each other as mutually beneficially as possible.

Just some thoughts that came to mind as I read your posts, FWIW....

 

[theos]

quote from PepperFritz:

I also wonder whether you might want to consider the degree of Self Importance and Self Consideration in the above-quoted statements. To me they imply a certain amount of judgement, as well of a sense of "If I can't have the satisfaction of sharing my complete self with another, what's in it for me?" -- as opposed to "What can I learn about myself from this friendship?" It seems to me that it would be more Externally Considerate to think not so much about our own needs, but to strive to understand others, and in doing so understand ourselves, in order to relate to each other as mutually beneficially as possible.

There is self importance and judgement in my statement if taken at face value. I should have made myself clearer, however, and defined what I meant by "get close". I was thinking primarily of intimate dating or marriage-type relationships. Even before I began Working, I had few friends and was prone to periods of lonliness. Oddly enough, since I've been educating myself I notice that I am more social and open with people. (Timidity has been one of my issues -- just another form of self-importance.) If you don't count my job, I haven't made any new friendships yet and I'm refusing intimate relationships at the moment -- okay, it's more like I haven't had any offers that weren't potential feeding frenzies :P --, but I don't feel lonely.

So, while I do want to learn about myself from my relationships I don't want to needlessly expose myself to unsavory characters if I don't have to. I'm sure I'll have to at some time, though ;)

 

[Aiming]

PepperFritz, you're indeed spot on! Thanks for holding up the mirror!

It's funny how I entrapped myself: On the one hand I've been trying my best to be externally considerate with others, especially in my job, where I'm with customers non-stop, and I was glad that it is beginning to work, that it is showing results. And I noticed how external considering made me satisfied, glad, because people I interacted with reacted very positively - in comparison to my earlier interaction with them when I was sound asleep. I really experienced it as "making life for others and for oneself easier".
However, while I was being externally considerate, I was at the same time kind of judging people for their sleep, like pity, but also some kind of looking down on them, especially because they are making it so hard for me because I'm obliged to externally considerate them for us to get along, ha ha! phh - - So because I practiced external considering I thought that was it and didn't notice this aspect of self-importance or internal considering. I could have seen it, but I didn't, I deluded myself. It was your words I've read just a few minutes ago that made me realize this! :)

When I was writing about not wanting to make friends with the sleeping, not-Working, I meant the ideal of friendship, of colinear friendship, which would make it just natural to share
-and not to feed- and understand one another and relate to one another.
You're still right though, because being capable of living something that comes close to this ideal, necessitates first of all one's handling of that which is already there, the normal and mechanical friendships and aquaintances. As you said here:

That means that we need to utilize our immediate environment, and the people in it, in order to observe ourselves and others. Limiting our interactions with others could limit our opportunities for learning.

Now I've been in a close relationship for over four years, which has been my most challenging learning experience ever. Apart from that I'm having no close people around me, I've chosen it, although I've often felt I should socialize more. I figured that 'If I can't find someone colinear with me, apart from my partner, I better leave it altogether, because what for?'. And just recently I find myself coming closer to two people, but because they are just normal people, I'm being suspicious and again feel I should not continue interacting with them so much, because it is going towards friendship, mechanical friendship, mechanical interactions and that's what I want to avoid. But how then am I to learn if I avoid that which is the actual 'field study'?
So, thanks again, PepperFritz! I see I should reconsider this issue.

 

[gwb1995]

quote from PepperFritz:

I also wonder whether you might want to consider the degree of Self Importance and Self Consideration in the above-quoted statements. To me they imply a certain amount of judgement, as well of a sense of "If I can't have the satisfaction of sharing my complete self with another, what's in it for me?" -- as opposed to "What can I learn about myself from this friendship?" It seems to me that it would be more Externally Considerate to think not so much about our own needs, but to strive to understand others, and in doing so understand ourselves, in order to relate to each other as mutually beneficially as possible.

There is self importance and judgement in my statement if taken at face value. I should have made myself clearer, however, and defined what I meant by "get close". I was thinking primarily of intimate dating or marriage-type relationships. Even before I began Working, I had few friends and was prone to periods of lonliness. Oddly enough, since I've been educating myself I notice that I am more social and open with people. (Timidity has been one of my issues -- just another form of self-importance.) If you don't count my job, I haven't made any new friendships yet and I'm refusing intimate relationships at the moment -- okay, it's more like I haven't had any offers that weren't potential feeding frenzies :P --, but I don't feel lonely.

So, while I do want to learn about myself from my relationships I don't want to needlessly expose myself to unsavory characters if I don't have to. I'm sure I'll have to at some time, though ;)

Hi chachachick,

From what I have read and learned here, it is vital that one works on ones Self first, and this involves reading the suggested reading list. It is easy to find with the search tool on this site. I'm sorry for not posting it now, as I have 'challenges' when it comes to adding links to my messages. The main point I am trying to make is that it is almost impossible to protect yourself from others, when you are not fully in control of your own 'self'. It is not safe to try and learn from relationships without the knowledge of knowing ones true 'self'. It involves a process called 'recapitulation' and it is vital to the process IMHO. I struggled with this for a long time myself, and it delayed my learning in ways that I can only recount as many wasted years. Our basic programming sets us up for failure, and if we don't prepare our mind for what that programming is doing to us, we can't really break free and learn anything about our real 'Self'.

I wasted a ton of energy on this subject, thinking that I knew what I was doing and what was happening to me.

My two cents,

GWB

 

[Pierre]

And just recently I find myself coming closer to two people, but because they are just normal people, I'm being suspicious and again feel I should not continue interacting with them so much, because it is going towards friendship, mechanical friendship, mechanical interactions and that's what I want to avoid. But how then am I to learn if I avoid that which is the actual 'field study'?

Perhaps you can find a balance : maintaining this relationship without falling into a mechanical interaction.

I guess "being In the world without being OF the word" means in this instance having social interactions (being IN the world) while avoiding identification, feeding, remaining conscious and applying external consideration (not being OF the world).

 

[Cyre2067]

Fwiw this is also an issue I struggle with. I have a lot of friends, and a lot of family. It was always hard for me to withdraw from some form of social interaction. In college it was so ingrained in me I would keep a TV on in the living room when my roommates weren't home because I didn't want to feel alone. Over the years I've steadily improved, and now I live alone comfortably, see my friends and family every so often, and have time to do the reading and various internet activities that let me learn and grow.

It is striking a balance between being able to interact with your peers in an externally considerate manner and to be a lone for introspection, reading, & internetting. It is also important to learn to discern healthy from unhealthy dynamics in social groups, not necessarily to call them out, but to protect one self from them and study them. As I learned the material here on sott and through the reading, I clearly saw two individuals that were pathological - or had pathological traits. At first I thought I could work around their head games, but eventually the universe showed me that a 'parting of the ways' was necessary.

A very tough and very interesting lesson to learn, nonetheless one which will pop up when one begins to awaken, osit. Some of my other friends have minor bits of ponerization, but nothing I would describe as pathological, and thus continued interaction helps me maintain a strategic enclosure as well as a way to relax, exercise and practice external consideration.

 

[Bernhard]

I guess "being In the world without being OF the word" means in this instance having social interactions (being IN the world) while avoiding identification, feeding, remaining conscious and applying external consideration (not being OF the world).

When I practice Self-Remembering and acute Self-Observation during social interactions, in particular with long term friends, I can see how this is sometimes easier said than done, as there are some patterns that have been ingrained over the years and have become quite mechanically. As I get better at it , meaning becoming more conscious of these patterns, I realize that there are certain things I just cannot share due to external consideration, which in the past I would have just let out, without considering, but assuming that this person "should" know this or that (in typical STS fashion). Sometimes it's very subtle and the mechanicalness of the personality with it's little "I's" is not that obvious if one is not completely present.

So, the challenge for me is to interact on their "level of being", which is not easy at times, because I feel I'm supporting their illusion, which becomes harder and harder to relate to. The border line between external consideration and trying to break through social patterns is at times a bit blurry for me, as I'm also aware of not to give when not asked. The right use of word and language becomes more and more important.

There more I see the mechanicalness in me, the more I see it in others and the more I see social interactions simply as the same old records playing on repeat in a loop. There is no creative exchange, it seems more everyone it talking to themselves. Lots of words with no meaning. Small talk for the sake of small talk, etc.....
I feel like I just need to choose a certain record for any given person I interact with and the interactions then become quite predictable. There are not many people I have a more conscious exchange with.