Journals and the Work

[Aiming]

Perhaps you can find a balance : maintaining this relationship without falling into a mechanical interaction.

I guess "being In the world without being OF the word" means in this instance having social interactions (being IN the world) while avoiding identification, feeding, remaining conscious and applying external consideration (not being OF the world).

Hello Belibaste, and thank you for the carification!


I just wonder:
Do you consider those sleeping people who're close to you as friends? I mean, sure, you externally consider them, maybe you do each other favours, or just have fun with each other.

But this kind of relation I for myself would not call a friendship, but rather an acquaintance. Friendship goes so much deeper, has much more meaning and scope.
Though maybe I'm just thinking this way, because I've always been choosy and careful about whom to include into my personal life. While this could also be nothing but a glitch in my machine, arising from self-importance and something like "Is this person worthwhile?".

While the other side of the coin is that I myself have a program frequently running of "I'm not worthwhile and I'm so grateful if somebody likes me and seeks my company".
The latter I've only recently observed when I tried to apply what PepperFritz has suggested: being in the world, but not of the world.
I realized how hard it actually is for me not to identify and/or take part in the feeding. However, I was observant and this enabled me to spot it. Which is fantastic. To have spotted it.
And I noticed that although I've kept to myself (I had friends and aquaintances, but always preferred to be on my own) most of the times, there is a feeling of wanting to belong, wanting to be part of and the 'need' for social gratification.

I guess a main aspect here is that I'm kind of scared of my own machine, I don't trust all those little deviant i's.
So if I allow people into my life, who're of this world, who knows whether I am ready to remain observant and not let some catastrophe inducing little i to take control.

And this fear of giving up control to just any little i mainly stems from a very shocking and terrifying vampiric encounter last year (when not knowing about the Work yet), which only happened, because "i" needed to find out - at the expense of the emotional well-being of my partner. To me, it was the greatest lesson of my life (about myself and about learning that when i think, it is not necessarily Me, and this can result in catastrophic hurt in others), but to him it was the greatest suffering of his life, and to this very day he's reproaching me (and I understand it) daily and inducing guilt in me for my inconsideration and cruelty.
(I got to know somebody and both of us felt -in unmeasured great intensity- that we were soul siblings - so there was nothing sexual or the like, just great intensity of knowing each other and belonging to each other like soul siblings. Before waking up to the fact that it was all nothing but a fraud, I was pretty unwilling to break up the contact, while my partner kept warning me of that person (he said he felt it) and he pleaded to me, while I could not 'hear' and thought it was just his jealousy and fear of losing me and I didn't understand and tried to make it clear to him that it was no man-woman thing, but a soul sibling, and that there was no peril to our relationship involved.
And to this day I'm trying to make up for it, but my partner still feels so much pain for this 'betrayal' and is constantly reproaching, that I'm hurting for him to feel so hurt, while to me it was so decisive a lesson.)

Sorry for digressing so very much. I actually wanted to ask about this in a new thread, because what I have done to him is such a burden for me, and while I want to make up for it by strengthening my inner change through as constant as possible self-observation in my interaction with others and proving to him that I have changed, he is re-living this to him hurtful thing over and over and is reproaching me constantly.
Seems like a catch-22 to me, like 'What can I do about it now to help him out of his suffering, and how am I to make up for having hurt him so much?'.


edit: maybe this should really be moved into another thread, because it is definitely distracting from the discussion at hand. Dear moderators..? :/

(Had to edit again, because the actual edit somehow also 'landed' within the text, and was -in that position- not making any sense.)

 

[Nienna]

Hi essence,

I guess a main aspect here is that I'm kind of scared of my own machine, I don't trust all those little deviant i's.
So if I allow people into my life, who're of this world, who knows whether I am ready to remain observant and not let some catastrophe inducing little i to take control.

You cannot do the Work in a vacuum. Without interacting with those of this world how do you get a chance to observe those programs/little i's in actions so as to learn about them?

I think that having friends/acquaintances is something that needs to be in order to grow and learn about ourselves. But having 'friends' and having someone that you can tell anything to, are two different cups of tea. You do need to be very careful who you have as a 'best friend' or so I think. This, to me, is the distinction. Although I could be misunderstanding what you are saying. :)

(I got to know somebody and both of us felt -in unmeasured great intensity- that we were soul siblings - so there was nothing sexual or the like, just great intensity of knowing each other and belonging to each other like soul siblings. Before waking up to the fact that it was all nothing but a fraud, I was pretty unwilling to break up the contact, while my partner kept warning me of that person (he said he felt it) and he pleaded to me, while I could not 'hear' and thought it was just his jealousy and fear of losing me and I didn't understand and tried to make it clear to him that it was no man-woman thing, but a soul sibling, and that there was no peril to our relationship involved.
And to this day I'm trying to make up for it, but my partner still feels so much pain for this 'betrayal' and is constantly reproaching, that I'm hurting for him to feel so hurt, while to me it was so decisive a lesson.)

This is quite a good example of two people who feel that they are 'special' and are feeding on each other. You were in a feeding frenzy. He could sense that you were withdrawing and he was/is unwilling to let his food go. Those who are feeding will do anything to keep their food! I think that you, too, are unwilling to stop the feeding at this point.

Sorry for digressing so very much. I actually wanted to ask about this in a new thread, because what I have done to him is such a burden for me, and while I want to make up for it by strengthening my inner change through as constant as possible self-observation in my interaction with others and proving to him that I have changed, he is re-living this to him hurtful thing over and over and is reproaching me constantly.
Seems like a catch-22 to me, like 'What can I do about it now to help him out of his suffering, and how am I to make up for having hurt him so much?'.

Only reading what is going on here is much different from 'knowing' the facts so I am responding to what I think is happening. If I am off I am sure that others will correct me.

If you are really serious about doing the Work, you need to pull totally away from this feeding dynamic. You need to cut him loose. The only thing you can do to help him out of his suffering (which to me looks like feeding withdrawals) is to let him go to live his own life. I think that you have done enough to him already, don't you?

Also, he is going to do anything he can to keep you feeling guilty (providing him with food) and keeping you close to continue his feeding. By you feeling guilty you are feeding him, and by witnessing his 'suffering' and trying to 'help' him you are feeding.

Gurdjieff has something to say about suffering and I am sure that you have read it, but I am going to quote what the Cassiopaea Glossary says about suffereing, because it seems you are really enjoying the suffering so much. And, oh boy, I know what I am talking about when it comes to enjoying suffering.

The 4th Way has a complex notion involving conscious and automatic suffering, seen as being diametrically opposite in their effects.

Gurdjieff speaks of the holy 'being partkdolg duty' in Beelzebub's Tales. This is defined as consisting of conscious labors and intentional suffering and is an impulse necessary for man's development towards objective reason and being.

This is not to be confused with mechanical suffering, which is the emotional or physical reaction to anything ordinarily painful. This 'feeds the moon,' whereas intentional suffering and conscious labors produce internal friction which is necessary for crystallizing anything of lasting value. The difference between the two types of suffering can be quite subtle and often ambiguous.

Ouspensky quotes Gurdjieff in In Search of the Miraculous:

'… If there is anything in the world that people do not understand it is the idea of sacrifice. They think they have to sacrifice something that they have. For example, I once said that they must sacrifice 'faith,' 'tranquillity,' 'health.' They understand this literally. But then the point is that they have not got either faith, or tranquillity, or health. All these words must be taken in quotation marks. In actual fact they have to sacrifice only what they imagine they have and which in reality they do not have. They must sacrifice their fantasies. But this is difficult for them, very difficult. It is much easier to sacrifice real things. "Another thing that people must sacrifice is their suffering. It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering. Man is made in such a way that he is never so much attached to anything as he is to his suffering. And it is necessary to be free from suffering. No one who is not free from suffering, who has not sacrificed his suffering, can work. Later on a great deal must be said about suffering. Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means."

From Beelzebub's Tales:

"He [Buddha] then, among other things, told them very definitely the following: "'One of the best means of rendering ineffective the predisposition present in your nature of the crystallization of the consequences of the properties of the organ Kundabuffer is "intentional-suffering"; and the greatest intentional suffering can be obtained in your presences if you compel yourselves to be able to endure the "displeasing-manifestations-of-others-towards-yourselves."'

And later:

'The factors for the being-impulse conscience arise in the presences of the three-brained beings from the localization of the particles of the "emanations-of-the-sorrow" of our OMNI-LOVING AND LONG-SUFFERING-ENDLESS CREATOR; that is why the source of the manifestation of genuine conscience in three-centered beings is sometimes called the REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CREATOR. "'And this sorrow is formed in our ALL-MAINTAINING COMMON FATHER from the struggle constantly proceeding in the Universe between joy and sorrow. In all three-brained beings of the whole of our Universe without exception, among whom are also we men, owing to the data crystallized in our common presences for engendering in us the Divine impulse of conscience, "the-whole-of-us" and the whole of our essence, are, and must be, already in our foundation, only suffering. And they must be suffering, because the completed actualizing of the manifestation of such a being-impulse in us can proceed only from the constant struggle of two quite opposite what are called "complexes-of-the- functioning" of those two sources which are of quite opposite origin, namely, between the processes of the functioning of our planetary body itself and the parallel functionings arising progressively from the coating and perfecting of our higher being-bodies within this planetary body of ours, which functionings in their totality actualize every kind of Reason in the three-centered beings. "'In consequence of this, every three-centered being of our Great Universe, and also we men existing on the Earth, must, owing to the presence in us also of the factors for engendering the Divine impulse of "Objective Conscience," always inevitably struggle with the arising and the proceeding within our common presences of two quite opposite functionings giving results always sensed by us either as "desires" or as "nondesires." And so, only he, who consciously assists the process of this inner struggle and consciously assists the "nondesires" to predominate over the desires, behaves just in accordance with the essence of our COMMON FATHER CREATOR HIMSELF; whereas he who with his consciousness assists the contrary, only increases HIS sorrow.'

We could say that mechanical suffering is rooted in subjectivity and consideration for self. Intentional or conscious suffering is on the other hand rooted in internal struggle for objectivity. It is choosing the higher in the place of the lower, choosing external considering in the place of internal considering, for example. Of course before this makes sense, there must exist some sort of taste for differentiating between these.

So it comes to be that the illusion of being virtuous because one happens to feel pain must be sacrificed, whereas the internal struggle towards objectivity must be embraced. Man's natural complacency and mechanicality, not to mention the General Law, will offer all the adversary one might wish for. In Gurdjieff's words, the Creator's joy is in creation struggling towards truth. This joy cannot be without the struggle, just as there cannot be free will without the presence of alternatives.

Suffering, which is what you and your partner are so addicted to, is very hard to sacrifice. But it really needs to be sacrificed if you want to continue on doing the Work. Or so I think.

 

[PepperFritz]

I just wonder: Do you consider those sleeping people who're close to you as friends? I mean, sure, you externally consider them, maybe you do each other favours, or just have fun with each other.

I realize your post is directed to Belibaste, but I hope you don't mind me offering a comment as well.

The thing to remember is that YOU are not fully "awake" either, and are still "sleeping" soundly in some areas. That is true for me and everyone else here.

Perhaps when you refer to "sleeping people", you mean individuals who are completely closed to EVERYTHING of a deeper nature -- in which case I would say, no, I don't have any people like that in my life who I would consider "friends". But then, that was true BEFORE I undertook the Work. However, I think you are actually referring to people who are not "as awake" as you are, in the areas in which you consider yourself "awake". In which case I'd have to say, yes, I do have friiends -- close friends -- who fall into that category. But then, I have never had a friend with whom I felt I could share EVERYTHING about myself, and therefore do not expect such a thing now. For it is an unrealistic -- as well as unreasonable -- expectation. Those friends remain friends because there are *some* areas, in some cases maybe even only ONE area (such as a love of animals, for instance) in which we are able to relate to each other on the same level, with the same level of awareness and values. And, heck -- what's wrong with having a friend with whom you only share "fun"? When did "fun" become a bad thing to spend part of your life experiencing? Obviously, if you devoted your life to ONLY having fun, there would be a problem. But, then, surely you do not expect to have a friend with whom you share ALL of your time and interests, do you?

I am a complex, multi-layered person, and I'm sure you are too. In that sense I see each of my friends as representing a part or aspect of myself. Not an identical mirror image, nor a "other half" with which to complete myself. It's really not a question of what quality of person the other person is, but what quality of person you are when you are with that person. If someone mirrors back the worse in you, use it as an opportunity to learn something about yourself, and move on. If they reflect a positive aspect of you, then take that as a gift, and don't expect "the world"....

That's my viewpoint, anyways, FWIW....

 

[Pierre]

I just wonder: Do you consider those sleeping people who're close to you as friends? I mean, sure, you externally consider them, maybe you do each other favours, or just have fun with each other.

The thing to remember is that YOU are not fully "awake" either, and are still "sleeping" soundly in some areas. That is true for me and everyone else here.

Perhaps when you refer to "sleeping people", you mean individuals who are completely closed to EVERYTHING of a deeper nature -- in which case I would say, no, I don't have any people like that in my life who I would consider "friends". But then, that was true BEFORE I undertook the Work.

Hi Essence,

It really depends on how you define friendship. As Pepperfritz said, while doing the Work your definition of friendship, the way you see yourself, your friends, your family members, your hobby might evolve.

If I correctly remember Castaneda mentioned in "Return to Ixtlan" how when going back to this village he knew he couldn't recognize its inhabitants. After much questioning he realized that the inhabitants hadn't changed, it's just him who had changed.

To use another analogy, imagine you're one of the Plato's cave inhabitants, with your friends you keep looking at the shadows, you discuss them, you share about them, you identify to those interpretations, those talks, those ideas, this world.

After a while you turn back you head and you realize these are only shadows, that there is something else outside the cave, then how would you perceive the discussions about the shadows ? Would your perception of the cave inhabitants change ? How would you interact with them ? Would your relationship with the ones who have also turned back their head be different ?

 

[kenlee]

There more I see the mechanicalness in me, the more I see it in others and the more I see social interactions simply as the same old records playing on repeat in a loop. There is no creative exchange, it seems more everyone it talking to themselves. Lots of words with no meaning. Small talk for the sake of small talk, etc.....
I feel like I just need to choose a certain record for any given person I interact with and the interactions then become quite predictable. There are not many people I have a more conscious exchange with.

I think what you said about seeing the mechanicalness in yourself is an extremely important point. If we can’t see our own mechanical reactions in different situations and if we are not conscious of our own programmed thought processes and prejudiced attitudes then how can we be properly prepared to act to externally consider anyone when we are only inwardly reacting to the situation which is the very basis of our old mechanical attitudes?

When I have those rare moments and can actually catch a quick glimpse of my own internal reactions to a person (or to a situation) then I find I’m a little less identified with it and I'm more able to see beyond myself to the other person and become more touched by their needs. At the very least, even if I’m not 'able' to help them in some specific instance because I'm simply too weak and allow my reaction to get the best of me, they might see (even if they are somewhat unconscious of it) that I’m still making a real effort to understand them while I struggle inwardly with becoming conscious of my own mechanical attitudes. This can help them too because if they can recognize this inner struggle then they may perceive the value in it and apply it to themselves as well. I think it was Gurdjieff who said that it was our inner essence that learns by example.

I remember someone once mentioning to me that these brief moments of self consciousness (that is, catching glimpses of our inner world -- the beginnings of self consciousness as one strives towards objective consciousness) are like pearls on a string forming a "necklace of Being.” Each moment has real value and adds up providing of course that this is one’s central aim.

 

[Bobo08]

And this fear of giving up control to just any little i mainly stems from a very shocking and terrifying vampiric encounter last year (when not knowing about the Work yet), which only happened, because "i" needed to find out - at the expense of the emotional well-being of my partner. To me, it was the greatest lesson of my life (about myself and about learning that when i think, it is not necessarily Me, and this can result in catastrophic hurt in others), but to him it was the greatest suffering of his life, and to this very day he's reproaching me (and I understand it) daily and inducing guilt in me for my inconsideration and cruelty.
(I got to know somebody and both of us felt -in unmeasured great intensity- that we were soul siblings - so there was nothing sexual or the like, just great intensity of knowing each other and belonging to each other like soul siblings. Before waking up to the fact that it was all nothing but a fraud, I was pretty unwilling to break up the contact, while my partner kept warning me of that person (he said he felt it) and he pleaded to me, while I could not 'hear' and thought it was just his jealousy and fear of losing me and I didn't understand and tried to make it clear to him that it was no man-woman thing, but a soul sibling, and that there was no peril to our relationship involved.
And to this day I'm trying to make up for it, but my partner still feels so much pain for this 'betrayal' and is constantly reproaching, that I'm hurting for him to feel so hurt, while to me it was so decisive a lesson.)

Sorry for digressing so very much. I actually wanted to ask about this in a new thread, because what I have done to him is such a burden for me, and while I want to make up for it by strengthening my inner change through as constant as possible self-observation in my interaction with others and proving to him that I have changed, he is re-living this to him hurtful thing over and over and is reproaching me constantly.
Seems like a catch-22 to me, like 'What can I do about it now to help him out of his suffering, and how am I to make up for having hurt him so much?'.

Hi Essence,

I have highlighted above some sentences that I considered important in your post. Read it again. Can you see that what your partner is doing is just too much? He is not hurting or suffering. He is feeding on your guilt and revelling in it. And he is doing everything possible to keep it that way.

You are playing your part in the feeding too. Remember that it takes two to tango. If you are serious about the Work, you need to stop it, at least stop the guilt trip. Like Nienna said, it's the only way you can help yourself and your partner (although he will not like it). I think the quote from Gurdjieff is very relevant here: "Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means."

 

[anart]

Hi Essence,

I have highlighted above some sentences that I considered important in your post. Read it again. Can you see that what your partner is doing is just too much? He is not hurting or suffering. He is feeding on your guilt and revelling in it. And he is doing everything possible to keep it that way.

You are playing your part in the feeding too. Remember that it takes two to tango. If you are serious about the Work, you need to stop it, at least stop the guilt trip. Like Nienna said, it's the only way you can help yourself and your partner (although he will not like it). I think the quote from Gurdjieff is very relevant here: "Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means."

I think it's important to remember that as outside observers, gathering information through an internet forum, that we really cannot know such things for certain. It may seem this way - but it may not be this way. We only have one side of the story.

What seems like lost trust on her partner's part may be feeding and 'reveling in it' and it may simply be lost trust - it's very hard to tell for certain. Just a word of caution on absolutes. I think the G quote on suffering is quite apropos. fwiw.

 

[Hildegarda]

Perhaps when you refer to "sleeping people", you mean individuals who are completely closed to EVERYTHING of a deeper nature -- in which case I would say, no, I don't have any people like that in my life who I would consider "friends". But then, that was true BEFORE I undertook the Work. However, I think you are actually referring to people who are not "as awake" as you are, in the areas in which you consider yourself "awake". In which case I'd have to say, yes, I do have friiends -- close friends -- who fall into that category. But then, I have never had a friend with whom I felt I could share EVERYTHING about myself, and therefore do not expect such a thing now. For it is an unrealistic -- as well as unreasonable -- expectation. [..]

I am a complex, multi-layered person, and I'm sure you are too. In that sense I see each of my friends as representing a part or aspect of myself. Not an identical mirror image, nor a "other half" with which to complete myself. It's really not a question of what quality of person the other person is, but what quality of person you are when you are with that person. If someone mirrors back the worse in you, use it as an opportunity to learn something about yourself

PepperFritz, this is exactly how I always felt about myself too -- thank you for putting it so succinctly.

Essence, after reading your more recent posts, I am wondering whether behind the general questions that you have there are actually a few specific situations, that need to be dealt with separately. Your customer-service job is one, your past vampiric encounter is another, the situation with your partner is still another one.

It seems to me -- correct me if I am wrong -- that you are trying to develop some profound understanding and attitude adjustment that will allow you to solve all those problems simultaneously. And I am sure eventually such an understanding will come. But in a meantime, may be concentrating on one thing at a time will help.

If we were to start with the "vampiric encounter", the following seems important:

I guess a main aspect here is that I'm kind of scared of my own machine, I don't trust all those little deviant i's.
So if I allow people into my life, who're of this world, who knows whether I am ready to remain observant and not let some catastrophe inducing little i to take control.

I don't think any of us are "ready" to do that before we try it and fall face down into the mud numerous times. Part of your fear seems to be coming from being afraid of "doing the wrong thing" again. I sometimes have a similar feeling, like if I were getting a failing grade in this lesson of life. But, in this school, nobody is keeping score, I have to remind that to myself: you learn, and when you have learned the lesson, you don't make that mistake anymore.

Your "vampiric encounter" lesson was painful, and it affected both your personal safety and the trust in your relationship. Perhaps instead of concentrating on how not to lose control to a "little i" again, you might want to consider the specifics of the situation: what kind of person that was, what personality traits in YOU made you vulnerable to him\her in the first place, and the circumstances around it. Then, you can concentrate on working on that vulnerability. You gave very little data on this, so it's hard to understand what exactly happened, but you might want to think on it with the hammer a bit.

It seems that your reluctance to form personal relationships may be related to that episode (despite a natural desire to belong and to be a part of something, that you yourself mentioned). There is a saying it reminds me of: "the one who burned his tongue on hot milk, now blows on cold water". Different levels of involvement with people of various "sleepiness" is a topic to explore separately. What I want to point out is that not all "sleeping" people are going to be even potentially dangerous to you: it depends on the circumstances and on what your vulnerability is. There is no need to shy all human contact, and no need to be afraid to "fail". You just have to keep yourself safe to the best of your ability, and that is done through knowing yourself. Knowledge should work like an armor in this case.

all IMO ...

 

[Oxajil]

Perhaps when you refer to "sleeping people", you mean individuals who are completely closed to EVERYTHING of a deeper nature -- in which case I would say, no, I don't have any people like that in my life who I would consider "friends". But then, that was true BEFORE I undertook the Work. However, I think you are actually referring to people who are not "as awake" as you are, in the areas in which you consider yourself "awake". In which case I'd have to say, yes, I do have friiends -- close friends -- who fall into that category. But then, I have never had a friend with whom I felt I could share EVERYTHING about myself, and therefore do not expect such a thing now. For it is an unrealistic -- as well as unreasonable -- expectation. Those friends remain friends because there are *some* areas, in some cases maybe even only ONE area (such as a love of animals, for instance) in which we are able to relate to each other on the same level, with the same level of awareness and values. And, heck -- what's wrong with having a friend with whom you only share "fun"? When did "fun" become a bad thing to spend part of your life experiencing? Obviously, if you devoted your life to ONLY having fun, there would be a problem. But, then, surely you do not expect to have a friend with whom you share ALL of your time and interests, do you?

fwiw:

I agree, I think some kind of contact with other people is crucial, at least, it was so in my situation and still is. I learned how to 'view' things more critically by interacting with certain (skeptic or manipulative) people (once learning more about this, I cut these connections and tried to move on) and my IRL friends are also sometimes a mirror for me. For example; When I act in a way that seems 'normal' for me, which is not 'normal' by them; they react in a way like 'Wow that's really sick.' or they give a reaction that shocks me. And this shock makes me realize 'Wait a second; why did I just do that?'. Sometimes others perceive you differently than you perceive yourself, even if you are doing the Work (in the context above).

Every day when I keep observing myself and my environment, observing the behavior of my friends, people on the internet, colleagues etc. I understand more about what I read. And then I try to write about what I learned from this behavior, which could be seen as my Journal. I also want to thank Black Swan for advising me to keep a Journal about my dreams. Because I think that dreams can sometimes ring a bell for you and show you to watch out for something.

When I was interacting with a dangerous man over the internet (I was young and not 'critically built') and so I was an open ear for what he could do (like paranormal things) and what he said. During this period of interaction I had a dream, which I think was a 'Dark Man Dream':

"Dark man dreams are wake-up calls. They say: Pay attention! Something has gone radically amiss in the outer world. ....The threat of the 'dark man dreams' serves as a warning to all of us -- if you don't pay attention, something will be stolen from you! The dreamer needs to be initiated so that whatever has been robbing her can be recoginzed, apprehended, and dealt with.

Later I realized that this dream was a warning for me. Nonetheless, I knew something was not right. And luckily I'm always watching my back when I walk on an unknown road. I always keep observing people, I never share too much personal info and thanks to SOTT I knew something more about manipulative behavior, but just imagine if someone else was interacting with this man and didn't look behind her back and didn't have such information. So since then I've become more critical and what I want to say is: Be careful with whom you interact with, keep observing and keep watching your back! And if someone unexpectedly stabs you in the back real hard and you think it's your fault because of a wrong choice you made in the beginning and because you were not looking out, then my advise is to try to use this experience as a strength, use this experience to build up your awareness and knowledge and try to share this experience with others, so that others can learn from this or try to share for support or advice. Or keep it in your Journal and try to keep observing yourself and your environment.

 

[Aiming]

This is quite a good example of two people who feel that they are 'special' and are feeding on each other. You were in a feeding frenzy. He could sense that you were withdrawing and he was/is unwilling to let his food go. Those who are feeding will do anything to keep their food! I think that you, too, are unwilling to stop the feeding at this point.

Hello Nienna Eluch!
Actually, I'm not enjoying this suffering/feeding at all - it is highly unnerving and highly draining. My partner in general has a bias towards suffering, negativity and also self-pity. So I find myself standing there, looking at him, not comprehending the sense of his ever-repeating suffering behaviour, and I'd just love to reach him a hand and help him out. But he's in a vicious circle. And is it not the first thing a human wants to do - to help his beloved? Though this should be in a way that's beneficial to him. (Especially because I hurt him, and this only reinforced his general negative attitude towards life and people.)

If you are really serious about doing the Work, you need to pull totally away from this feeding dynamic. You need to cut him loose. The only thing you can do to help him out of his suffering (which to me looks like feeding withdrawals) is to let him go to live his own life. I think that you have done enough to him already, don't you?

Also, he is going to do anything he can to keep you feeling guilty (providing him with food) and keeping you close to continue his feeding. By you feeling guilty you are feeding him, and by witnessing his 'suffering' and trying to 'help' him you are feeding.

Actually, I've only recently begun to feel a strange urgency about resolving this issue in my relationship (and actually just every issue in my life). It felt as if it was essential to resolve this, and it felt to be connected to my aim of working myself towards STO. So I decided to gather up the courage (indeed it felt like courage to me) and really look at this relationship and try to attain as objective a viewpoint as possible.
And I am seeing the feeding, I am seeing his and my mechanical reactions. And I asked myself 'Are we even collinear, as I/we have always believed?' This very question whether we're even collinear was eliciting a really great fear. I kind of felt that something is pushing me towards the decision to break up. And this feeling of something pushing me to break up, I have felt quite a few times in the relationship. Now the trouble is I don't know whether it is just sth mechanical, some little i in me, or if this is something real.

Both he and I always considered our doubts about each other as some kind of internal attack. Why? Because we always felt we were destined to be with each other (yeah, I know, many people feel like that). He repeatedly told me that he has frequently been sensing some kind of negative energies/dark forces who're trying to rip us apart. Well, I don't know if this is anywhere near objectivity. What I know though is that when I was 15 I had a vision of him being my partner (I met him when I was 22), and we were living only like 500 metres away from each other and once when I was walking towards him (we had only seen each other on the street), there was a voice in my head saying 'Hey essence, this is your man!?' Not that I believed this voice, I was not enthralled by it at all, just found it curious that I was hearing this voice.

Anyway, I think my current problem is just what Hildegarda has observed here:

Essence, after reading your more recent posts, I am wondering whether behind the general questions that you have there are actually a few specific situations, that need to be dealt with separately. Your customer-service job is one, your past vampiric encounter is another, the situation with your partner is still another one.

It seems to me -- correct me if I am wrong -- that you are trying to develop some profound understanding and attitude adjustment that will allow you to solve all those problems simultaneously. And I am sure eventually such an understanding will come. But in a meantime, may be concentrating on one thing at a time will help.

As you all know, I'm only just beginning with the Work. I'm looking at everything around and inside me, at least that which I am currently seeing, and I feel this urgency to resolve it all at once, I'm questioning just every little thing. I'm feeling this deep need to see objectively, to see Truth and act upon it. By all means, I do not wanna act on illusions anymore, anywhere. I'm even taking into account that some and all very holy sacred cows have to die, and although there's fear, there's this driving force inside of me, that is kind of demanding me to shed a light upon everything and then act upon it. So there's this drive/urgency to wake up to Truth, and there's -naturally- the current state of my personality, feeling a mixture of acceptance of the Work, but also great confusion and fear.

If we were to start with the "vampiric encounter", the following seems important:

I guess a main aspect here is that I'm kind of scared of my own machine, I don't trust all those little deviant i's.
So if I allow people into my life, who're of this world, who knows whether I am ready to remain observant and not let some catastrophe inducing little i to take control.

I don't think any of us are "ready" to do that before we try it and fall face down into the mud numerous times. Part of your fear seems to be coming from being afraid of "doing the wrong thing" again. I sometimes have a similar feeling, like if I were getting a failing grade in this lesson of life. But, in this school, nobody is keeping score, I have to remind that to myself: you learn, and when you have learned the lesson, you don't make that mistake anymore.

Your "vampiric encounter" lesson was painful, and it affected both your personal safety and the trust in your relationship. Perhaps instead of concentrating on how not to lose control to a "little i" again, you might want to consider the specifics of the situation: what kind of person that was, what personality traits in YOU made you vulnerable to him\her in the first place, and the circumstances around it. Then, you can concentrate on working on that vulnerability. You gave very little data on this, so it's hard to understand what exactly happened, but you might want to think on it with the hammer a bit.

It seems that your reluctance to form personal relationships may be related to that episode (despite a natural desire to belong and to be a part of something, that you yourself mentioned). There is a saying it reminds me of: "the one who burned his tongue on hot milk, now blows on cold water". Different levels of involvement with people of various "sleepiness" is a topic to explore separately. What I want to point out is that not all "sleeping" people are going to be even potentially dangerous to you: it depends on the circumstances and on what your vulnerability is. There is no need to shy all human contact, and no need to be afraid to "fail". You just have to keep yourself safe to the best of your ability, and that is done through knowing yourself. Knowledge should work like an armor in this case.
all IMO ...

Thanks Hildegarda! It seems to me now that -in my confusion- what I'm doing wrong is seeing everything in Black and White. It is not possible to make decisions or come to conclusions in this my state of mind. Especially because I'm not seeing everything yet. Far from it.

 

[Aiming]

I am a complex, multi-layered person, and I'm sure you are too. In that sense I see each of my friends as representing a part or aspect of myself. Not an identical mirror image, nor a "other half" with which to complete myself. It's really not a question of what quality of person the other person is, but what quality of person you are when you are with that person. If someone mirrors back the worse in you, use it as an opportunity to learn something about yourself, and move on. If they reflect a positive aspect of you, then take that as a gift, and don't expect "the world"....

Your comment, PepperFritz, is -as usual and as others here have pointed out- really insightful and spot on. Thank you!

It really depends on how you define friendship. As Pepperfritz said, while doing the Work your definition of friendship, the way you see yourself, your friends, your family members, your hobby might evolve.
~
To use another analogy, imagine you're one of the Plato's cave inhabitants, with your friends you keep looking at the shadows, you discuss them, you share about them, you identify to those interpretations, those talks, those ideas, this world.

After a while you turn back you head and you realize these are only shadows, that there is something else outside the cave, then how would you perceive the discussions about the shadows ? Would your perception of the cave inhabitants change ? How would you interact with them ? Would your relationship with the ones who have also turned back their head be different ?

I've always liked Plato's cave inhabitants, and it's good to be reminded of it. :)
Because yes, just everything would change when seeing the shadows for what they are. And while everything is being changed by seeing the shadows as shadows, I would want to find out all about the Real thing, that's casting the shadow. And when I see there're some or most who cannot see the shadows as shadows, well, I'd try to communicate with those who can also see, and build a network for both studying together and for strategic enclosure. ;)
Because sure thing, it wouldn't be wise to talk to the blind and thus be incarcerated as a lunatic..

 

[spyraal]

Perhaps when you refer to "sleeping people", you mean individuals who are completely closed to EVERYTHING of a deeper nature -- in which case I would say, no, I don't have any people like that in my life who I would consider "friends". But then, that was true BEFORE I undertook the Work. However, I think you are actually referring to people who are not "as awake" as you are, in the areas in which you consider yourself "awake". In which case I'd have to say, yes, I do have friiends -- close friends -- who fall into that category. But then, I have never had a friend with whom I felt I could share EVERYTHING about myself, and therefore do not expect such a thing now. For it is an unrealistic -- as well as unreasonable -- expectation. Those friends remain friends because there are *some* areas, in some cases maybe even only ONE area (such as a love of animals, for instance) in which we are able to relate to each other on the same level, with the same level of awareness and values. And, heck -- what's wrong with having a friend with whom you only share "fun"? When did "fun" become a bad thing to spend part of your life experiencing? Obviously, if you devoted your life to ONLY having fun, there would be a problem. But, then, surely you do not expect to have a friend with whom you share ALL of your time and interests, do you?

I am a complex, multi-layered person, and I'm sure you are too. In that sense I see each of my friends as representing a part or aspect of myself. Not an identical mirror image, nor a "other half" with which to complete myself. It's really not a question of what quality of person the other person is, but what quality of person you are when you are with that person. If someone mirrors back the worse in you, use it as an opportunity to learn something about yourself, and move on. If they reflect a positive aspect of you, then take that as a gift, and don't expect "the world"....

Thank you PepperFritz for this enlightening and helpfull analysis of your view! :) IMO, it describes accurately these otherwise fine and taint lines present in interpersonal relationships.

There is nothing i would like to add to it other than -only for the sake of conversation- be allowed to expand your line of thought and while understanding your use of the word "friend" (i use it often in it's "common" context,too) draw a semantic distiction between a "friend" and an " acquaintance" or "companionship", only to reserve -for the needs of my arguement- the word "friend" for these more meaningfull and deeper kinds of relationship.

The reason that i personally see the number of the people i consider true friends declining has a lot to do first with my decision to try and undertake the Work to the best of my abilities, and then to my growing "strictness" in my personal definition of a true friend as i slowly grow in knowledge. At the moment, i can only consider a person as such one who although not perfect (as all), still has some definite ability for critical thinking, self-observation, external considering etc., one who has through his own efforts gothered enough being so as he can be trusted for his consistency and integrity during hard times and difficult choices that come during the experience of sharing.

And assuming a friendship to be an "entity" with greater dynamic and potential than each of it's individual parts alone, it is pretty important for each of the contributing parts to be able to support it creatively in hardships and stand up to the responsibility of mutual trust in each other's nature and thus each other's decision making and doing. Because then IMO, this ideal "friendship" or this group of men of mutual nature in the above context, has the necessary intergrity to explore it's true potential and thus a very good reason to exist. And exploring a relationship of such quality should be, as i think of it, a source of true fan and joy.

But all this hypothesis, draws me to the conclusion that a true frindship can exist only among people who are either awake -idealy, or more pragmaticaly, at least dedicated in their awakening but also have achieved to be somehow successfull and efficient in that task so as to have some real results. In that context, doing the Work seems to be -among other things- like working to become worthy and deserving of Friendship in it's full sense...

Thank you for bearing with me on my pondering for a definition of a "true friend" in the occasion of this thread and all the other members for their usefull input. Take care!

:)

 

[PepperFritz]

...a true frindship can exist only among people who are either awake -idealy, or more pragmaticaly, at least dedicated in their awakening but also have achieved to be somehow successfull and efficient in that task so as to have some real results....

I have a real problem with this correlation of the capacity for "true friendship" being directly related to the degree to which one is "awake" -- because of its potential for delusionary thinking. None of us here are fully "awake"; we are also all STS by nature of being third-density earth residents. "Friend" is an STS concept, one that involves "attachment". As the C's have pointed out, non-attachment is an STO quality, one that we are not capable of as STS beings. So, to me, the very idea of a "true friendship" or "ideal friendship" is fraught with delusion, as such concepts would probably not exist in an STO world.

As STS beings, we are drawn to people who we feel comfortable with, with those whom we perceive to be "just like us". Now, if we are under the delusion that we are "awake", we will seek out others who we think are also "awake" -- however, they will actually be, like us, simply under the delusion that they are "awake". So this "true friendship" will be based largely upon the mutual reinforcement of the delusion of being "awake".

At the moment, i can only consider a person as such one who although not perfect (as all), still has some definite ability for critical thinking, self-observation, external considering etc., one who has through his own efforts gothered enough being so as he can be trusted for his consistency and integrity during hard times and difficult choices that come during the experience of sharing.

Do you not see the Internal Consideration behind this statement? Do you not see that you are really describing YOURSELF -- or rather, the person you currently perceive yourself to be? You are essentially saying, this is how evolved I am, and I cannot accept another as a "friend" who is less evolved than me, because I am "special". And what if someone were to consider themselves more evolved than you? Would you agree that they are justified in not considering you a "true friend" because you do not reflect their current perception of themselves?

I also have a real problem with the emphasis on someone's ability for "critical thinking", as it seems to imply that intellectual capacity is related to one's spiritual state and capacity for "true friendship". According to the C's, it is one's Frequency Resonance Vibration that most accurately reflects the true nature of their being, not their intellectual capacity:

Q: (L) There was a discussion the other day and it made me
curious. It seems that some people simply do not have the
capacity to understand certain concepts. Is this a function of
vibrational frequency?
A: That is not quite hitting at the subject matter in the way in
which you desire to answer the question. In other words, it is
a parallel understanding pattern. It is not vibrational frequency
that determines ability to conceive of any particular notion.
Vibrational frequency involves the groove, or pattern, that one
has chosen in general terms. But, to give you an example,
there are those who are of very LOW, as you would
measure, vibrational frequency, who are able to conceive of
extremely complicated issues and have also discovered
extremely precise, complicated, and intricate answers to very
complex notions and problems from your standpoint in the
illusion. But, the frequency vibrational level has more to do
with the emotional path that leads either to Service to Self at
its greatest possible expression, or Service to Others at its
greatest possible expression, not with intellectual capacity. So
it is possible for a completely STS individual at any density
level to be completely cognizant of all existence, just as it is
possible for a completely STO individual to be completely
cognizant of all existence. It has nothing to do with vibrational
frequency because that is the emotional pathway.
Q: (L) The reason I ask this is because I have noticed that
certain persons can skew the incoming material in the
direction of their particular prejudices because of their
emotional attachment to these prejudices. And I am sure that
my own prejudices have an influence as well. But, I notice
that very often the understanding of the material by others is
quite different from what F*** and I understand. It seems
that we all hear something different. Does this indicate a
vibrational differential which could be considered a lack of
rapport, or some other phenomenon of which I am not
aware?
A: The only phenomenon that is present here that is in any
way related to the situation you describe is what could be
termed intellectual capacity, which is not related directly to
vibrational frequency. Think, if you will, in your lifetime have
you ever met either a) an individual that you did not perceive
to be particularly intellectually developed, who was,
nevertheless, of a very kind and loving and giving nature; or b)
an individual whom you perceive to have great intellectual
capacity who was, nevertheless, extremely selfish and
non-giving and not generous and not concerned about
anyone's well being but their own?
Q: (L) Yes. I know exactly what you mean. But there is still
some gap that I am trying to fathom here. I have a little theory
that people who are en rapport tend to think in similar ways
or with similar patterns, even if at different levels. And I think
that because of emotional similarity or identity of purpose or
orientation, that they might almost begin to think as one mind
or move as one body, to work as a unit. Why is this not
happening? Why the disparity?
A: The real issue involved is one of intellectual capacity,
which, in and of itself, can lead to all sorts of emotional
entanglements and frictions. It does not require a differential in
vibrational frequency level to produce the types of symptoms
that you describe. It is merely intellectual capacity that is
inferior rather than the vibrational frequency level. Again, this
vibrational frequency level involves nature of being and
emotion, not intelligence.

So perhaps we are closer to an STO concept of "friendship" (if there is such a thing!) by considering whether our Frequency Resonance Vibration is "in sync" with another's.

There is a man in my life whom I consider to be a cherished "friend". We got to know each other because we walk our dogs on the same trail every day. He is a "simple" man who never graduated high school, works as a machinist, and probably would have a very hard time reading and understanding the material that we study here. Yet I look forward to this man's company, and always come home in a "lighter" mood after interacting with him. This I have always attributed to his "good heart", which I now realize is probably how I perceive his Frequency Resonance Vibration, one that is definitely STO-leaning. Do I consider him less of a "true friend" than someone with whom I can discuss the material and concepts that we study here -- such as my cousin Leslie, with whom I share a house and home? No, not at all....

 

[Nienna]

Hi essence,

I'm just curious, have you read any of the psychology books? And if so, which ones?

 

[Aiming]

I've read 'Trapped in the Mirror', 'Unholy Hungers', and am currently reading 'Myth of Sanity'. (wrong order, because I saw too late that the reading order of the books had been changed).

Your question, I assume, means how I'm talking about my issues is showing a lack of knowledge in the psychological area? At least I'm having a hard time to put the issues I mentioned into a whole over-all picture. I could spot some things here and there (especially from family life and some behaviour patterns in my relationship) that applied to what I was reading. But I can't get rid of the feeling that I'm missing something essential. Too much attachment. Too much (self-?)importance. Too much of a sacred cow. :/

Nienna, could you please tell me why, apart from curiosity, you were asking this? For it seems to me that there's some severe misperception on my side