"Life Without Bread"

[dugdeep]

This website gives a breakdown of energy values and constituent parts (Protein, Carb, Fat, fibre, minerals etc) - www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search

www.nutritiondata.com is another good one. There are a whole bunch. They all access the same USDA database, though, so it's just about which interface you prefer.

[quote author=trevizent]
The big question then is, how much energy is required for the day.

This may help, or not.
[/quote]

Here's a calorie requirements calculator. Like I say, though, these algorithms should be taken with a grain of salt since they don't take into account individual differences. I would say use this as a rough guideline only.

http://www.freedieting.com/tools/calorie_calculator.htm

 

[agni]

Theoretically, zero carb should be doable, as long as you're getting vitamin C from somewhere.

Practically Eskimos & some other Northern Tribes found it doable. I am not sure if it's due to specifics of their genetics shaped by geographical/climate adaptation over several generations or something different all together. They seem to be meat/fish eaters, yet were able to survive for an extended periods of time without much of Vitamin C intake (perhaps with small exceptions of berries from time to time if someone got lucky.)

 

[Keit]

Theoretically, zero carb should be doable, as long as you're getting vitamin C from somewhere.

Practically Eskimos & some other Northern Tribes found it doable. I am not sure if it's due to specifics of their genetics shaped by geographical/climate adaptation over several generations or something different all together. They seem to be meat/fish eaters, yet were able to survive for an extended periods of time without much of Vitamin C intake (perhaps with small exceptions of berries from time to time if someone got lucky.)

There is this article on SOTT that talks about "the Inuit paradox":

As for vitamin C, the source in the Eskimo diet was long a mystery. Most animals can synthesise their own vitamin C in their livers, but humans are among the exceptions along with other primates and oddballs like guinea pigs and bats. Scurvy - joint pain, rotting gums, leaky blood vessels, physical and mental degeneration - plagued European and US expeditions even in the 20th century. However, Arctic peoples living on fresh fish and meat were free of the disease. Native foods easily supply enough vitamin C especially when organ meats - preferably raw - are on the menu.

In a study comparing the vitamin C content of 100 gram samples of foods eaten by Inuit women in the Canadian arctic: raw caribou liver supplied 24 mg, seal brain 15 mg and raw kelp more than 28 mg. Still higher levels were found in frozen whale skin and blubber. Wherever collagen is made, you can expect vitamin C. Thick skinned, chewy, and collagen rich, raw muktuk can serve up an impressive 36 mg of vitamin C in a 100g piece. Traditional Inuit practices like freezing meat and fish and frequently eating them raw conserve vitamin C, which is easily cooked off and lost in food processing.

So yeah, apparently it's doable, but probably would prefer to have my Vit C in other form than raw organs. :) But maybe it's not that bad, who knows. Maybe as dried or salted?

 

[dugdeep]

Theoretically, zero carb should be doable, as long as you're getting vitamin C from somewhere.

Practically Eskimos & some other Northern Tribes found it doable. I am not sure if it's due to specifics of their genetics shaped by geographical/climate adaptation over several generations or something different all together. They seem to be meat/fish eaters, yet were able to survive for an extended periods of time without much of Vitamin C intake (perhaps with small exceptions of berries from time to time if someone got lucky.)

Most animals make their own vitamin C, so it is possible to get enough vitamin C in the diet without any plant foods by eating the proper parts of the animal - that's how the Inuit can manage. The only issue is that we don't tend to eat the glands of animals responsible for manufacturing this vitamin these days. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it's the adrenal glands that make vitamin C in animals. Last I checked, my local butcher wasn't selling cow adrenals

Also, vitamin C requirements go way down when you are engaged in fat metabolism instead of glucose metabolism. Vitamin C is carbohydrate-like (although it's not a carbohydrate) and it competes with sugar for uptake into the cells. With little to no sugar to compete, a higher percentage of vitamin C gets into the cells making our requirements shrink. Lately I've found I get to bowel tolerance on half as much vit C as it used to take.

Edit: Saw Keit's post after writing, but posted since I think it's still relevant :)
Edit2: Wikipedia has a list of animal sources for vitamin c - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Animal_sources

 

[3DStudent]

That's about 1/2 a pound of butter per day worth of fat, ie. a whole lot of fat. I really don't think I'm hitting this and have actually been running into issues with heartburn when I up my fat intake too much.

Yeah, it's a lot of fat. I've been upping my fat and basically my food is really soupy because of all the fat. :P And I've experienced the heartburn a few times too.

 

[Joe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one thing I haven't seen discussed here is precisely how much fat versus protein should be consumed. If we were to try for a 70% fat, 20% protein and 10% (or less) carbs, how many grams of fat and protein work out to? I presume it can't just be worked out by weight alone because we are talking about energy requirements here and I understand that fat provides much more energy than protein.

For example, if I eat a pork chop that has 20% fat and 80% protein as weight on the actual chop, what might that work out as in terms of energy?

I think it hasn't been discussed because it's complicated :) You have to switch from the weight of the food you're eating to the calorie content. And you're right - fat is more energy dense than protein or carbohydrate.

Let's suppose, for arguments sake, that you're eating 3000 calories per day (calories being the measure of energy). If you're aiming for the 70% fat, 20% protein and 10% carbs you mentioned above, that's 2100 calories of fat, 600 calories of protein and 300 calories of carbs. When figuring out how much that translates to in weight, we need to convert calories to grams. But, while protein and carbs both provide 4cal/g, fat provides 9cal/g.

This means you're looking at 150g of protein, 75g of carbs, 233g of fat.

A single pork chop has about 33g of protein so if it was 20% fat you're looking at a 41.25g pork chop with 8.25g of fat. That means you're getting 132 calories of protein and 74.25 calories from fat. In other words, not enough fat.

An easier way to figure it out may be this - since we know how much protein and carb we're aiming for, roughly, we can just say "make the rest fat". We know we're aiming for 72g of carbs (288 calories). We know our protein requirements are anywhere from 1.2 - 1.7g/kg body weight (from Courageous Inmate Sort's article - great article btw :) ) . In my case, I think I weigh about 86kg (give or take, I don't own a scale), so that means my protein requirement is anywhere from 103 - 146g per day. Let's take the middle ground and say 130g (520 calories).

So we could just say eat 72g of carbs, 130g of protein and eat the rest as fat until you're sated. Or you could figure out your ideal caloric intake and calculate how much fat you actually should be taking in, but these calculations are always problematic and theories on ideal caloric intake are usually slanted towards the "lower calories is better" idea.

Assuming, as I did above, eating 3000 calories (which would be too much for most people, but we'll just go with this since I think it's probably right for me), with 808cal taken up by protein and carb, I need to hit 1192 calories of fat - or 133g of fat per day. That's about 1/2 a pound of butter per day worth of fat, ie. a whole lot of fat. I really don't think I'm hitting this and have actually been running into issues with heartburn when I up my fat intake too much.

I don't know if this helps at all. I may have just confused the issue. There's quite a bit of wiggle room in the formula here considering protein requirement is given as a range. At the end of the day, I think most people are just going to eat what they feel like after keeping their carbs down to 72g, but maybe we should always be trying to make an effort to load up on fat.

It helps! Thanks Dugdeep. I've had the idea for quite a while that I need to eat more fat, but getting it is the hard part. When I began the diet I ate a lot of meat, like three steaks at one meal, in an effort to "feel full" like I was used to with eating carbs, but very soon I was having an upset stomach that would come on around 6 in the evening and last for about three hours. Too much protein I think, or too much too soon. Getting enough fat is gonna be a struggle I think, unless I just switch to thinking of fat as food with a side order of protein.

 

[Psalehesost]

Some experiences thus far:

Have had phlegm coming up in my throat repeatedly - often - many days. Recently I had a day where I felt somewhat as if sick, and the next day I felt a bit better than in a long time.

It seems to generally work well with my digestive system - no problem with lots of fat - though I had a period of constipation before, and frequency is still somewhat random.

I've noticed - after a couple of years of remaining the same height - that I've grown a little, and my legs are a little bit sore still. This is interesting in light of the hormone balance issue written of in Life Without Bread, where the body can compensate for higher insulin by cutting down on hormones in the same general category, including growth hormones. Perhaps balancing this up with the diet (same reason underweight people - like me - are supposed to gain a healthy weight. this may come, I guess. to be seen in coming months) has made my body resume the last part of its growth, given that I'm still in my early twenties? Any other young members noticing this?

 

[dugdeep]

It helps! Thanks Dugdeep. I've had the idea for quite a while that I need to eat more fat, but getting it is the hard part. When I began the diet I ate a lot of meat, like three steaks at one meal, in an effort to "feel full" like I was used to with eating carbs, but very soon I was having an upset stomach that would come on around 6 in the evening and last for about three hours. Too much protein I think, or too much too soon. Getting enough fat is gonna be a struggle I think, unless I just switch to thinking of fat as food with a side order of protein.

Most of the bloggers I read who are making a serious effort of keeping carbs down and fat up are drinking full-fat cream to help them along (which is probably super-delicious, too). I wonder if there's any cream out there that's low enough in casein to make it doable? As the fat content of cream goes up, the lactose and casein go down, but I don't know if there's a point at which the casein becomes negligible, or if once we get to this point it's just butter.

 

[rrraven]

mushrooms come to mind...they can soak up enormous amount of fat
maybe the solution to getting more fat into the food is gravy ,using the daily carb allowance for thickening agent ,with mushrooms
hmmm creamy mushroom bacon sauce oozing over steamed broccoli :)
what about double cream? does it have enough fat to make up for the lactose and casein?

 

[mcb]

A comment on "calculating" how much to eat of this and that. We're supposed to have built-in "calculators." No other animal can do the math, and yet most healthy animals manage seem to maintain their weight if they aren't exposed to human foods.

My experience with lowering carbs is that I have not had to calculate anything. The only thing I use calories for now is to estimate how much food to buy for the week so that I don't run out or waste it. Once I dropped carbs to less than 50 g/day (average), my appetite started working and now I simply lose my appetite when I have had enough. I seem to go through somewhere around 2000 calories a day, pretty much the same as I have for a long time. I don't do heavy work and don't even have the capacity for it, so that is all I seem to need.

I have fought with appetite most of my life (from about 1970 on, as the American food supply grew more and more unnatural), and I reached 300 lbs at one point, 16 years ago. I was back up to 260 eight years ago. Now I am at about 212 and going down very slowly, after putting on 35 pounds over 6 years. Most of the carbs I eat now are from root vegetables and wild rice, with a little D-ribose & xylitol thrown in here and there. No flour, pasta, table sugar, fruit juices, HFCS, etc. etc. etc.

I really don't know what is going on or why, other than that clearly there are certain "modern" unnatural foods that I should never eat. I do have a bodily sense that too much protein is not good, so perhaps there is also such a thing as "protein appetite." I crave fat up to a point but, unlike carbohydrate craving, once I have enough I don't crave it any more. I have been cooking roasts the last couple of weeks (beef & lamb) that have fat on them, and I save the drippings and use them as natural gravy (nothing else added).

Recently I have tried adding cheese to my diet, so as to reduce protein intake. I definitely have the necessary lactase gene, and I have had no negative effects from reintroducing it. I have been choosing only high-quality, no-carb natural cheeses. The one problem I am having is that my food BUDGET is out of control. I am cutting back further on supplements and that helps, but I haven't figured out what to do about the cost yet.

The sense I got from reading Why We Get Fat was that more research is needed to understand what causes us to gain and lose weight. Nothing I have read really explains it. Knowing that insulin regulates lipogenesis doesn't provide a complete picture -- it is just part of the explanation. There is more to it that is still unknown. I am still eating some carbs, in certain restricted forms, and yet I am losing weight without going hungry. Do I not have an insulin response to those carbs? I don't know. Maybe it is the specific forms of foods, or maybe it is something else. More than likely it is a combination of things. All I can do is keep trying different things and observing the results, while reading whatever I can find that might help.

 

[Gawan]

I think so too. As far as I understand different organs are using different energy, for example the heart needs fat (what Dr. Lutz describes) and the brain mainly sugar (carbohydrates, p. 69 in the book), so I don't know if a no-carb transition phase is possible or even recommended. Maybe these athletes don't need the brain. :P As Laura wrote some posts before and mentioned by Courageous Inmate Sort, it is better to go easy with the diet and give the body time to adjust.

It is possible, Legolas, because of something you wrote about earlier in the thread - gluconeogenesis. The liver is able to convert protein into carbohydrate in order to feed the brain and other tissues that can't survive on ketone bodies alone. Theoretically, zero carb should be doable, as long as you're getting vitamin C from somewhere.

Thanks dougdeep for correcting me. I suspected already something like that, but Lutz didn't get that deep into detail in that part of the book yet (he mentioned that the body takes care of the rest in producing energy for the brain with the fat/proteins), maybe cause his main therapy is based on 76 gr. of carbohydrates.

 

[Laura]

I think we ought not to use eskimo fat consumption as a guide. Eskimos live in a very harsh and cold environment and they have adapted to this need for extremely high fat calorie consumption. Their livers are larger and their trunks more barrel like as a result.

But still, getting enough fat - though not what eskimos consume - IS important.

Megan has taken back cheese into her diet and does not seem to be having any problems with it. Dugdeep points out that some people take cream to make the quota. Maybe that is the solution for some people and they can test it out to see if their body tolerates it?

I don't seem to be bothered by the problem because I have my own "supply" stuck to the body, like Megan. But the slim people, athletes, those who do a lot of physical labor and don't have fat on their bodies, have different issues to deal with and that does need a solution.

 

[RedFox]

Just wanted to post a few observations that may help (I am one of those people that has literally no body fat to start with).
Heartburn can be alleviated with a good digestive aid (make sure it has hydrochloric acid/HCI in it), and by eating smaller portions more often. Your stomach acid will eventually start to increase osit.

Trying to stuff to much fat down me ended with feeling extremely nauseous/sick (once with constipation) over a period of a week (and experiencing diarrhoea/loose stools). It seems that too much fat was making it into my large intestines. Making sure the digestive aid has ox bile is important to this, as well as making sure you're liver is working well (I'm still taking milk thistle) in order to produce the bile needed.
What fixed the nausea/fat digestion problem was simply to eat smaller portions more often, and have 4-5 small meals a day. After a few weeks you're digestion will improve and you will be able to eat more fat in one meal without symptoms.

As to getting the fat in, there are a few things I have noticed. Firstly supermarket lard/tallow in large quantities really doesn't suit me! I felt extra nauseous on those. Goose/duck fat and ghee seem to suit me best, so try out different fats. Rotating them is also a good idea (not having the same meal 5 times a day).
Coconut oil was good for a while (until it seemed to be making me inflamed), and I would eat some whenever I had a sugar craving. Cocoa butter may be something to explore.

I've been experimenting with how to make a large amount of fat palatable, and the best method I've found is a cross between a gravy and a curry. Soften your veg (celery/carrots/1-2 sweet potatoes) in (50g-100g) goose/duck fat - add to a casserole dish. Brown your meat (500g minced beef) in ghee (100g-150g), add turmeric and cumin (if you tolerate it), then add a few table spoons of buckwheat flour and cook for a few minutes. Add water and stir until it turns into a gravy. Add to the casserole dish and cook in the oven for 30 minutes to 1 hour.
Delicious high fat curry that tastes great hot or cold. The buckwheat takes the edge off the fat (perhaps it slows down its transit through the small intestine?). So far this seems to be about the right amount of fat to protein for me, roughly 250g of meat (not sure how much fat/protein is in the beef mince), 125g of fat and 50g of carbs.

 

[Laura]

I've been experimenting with how to make a large amount of fat palatable, and the best method I've found is a cross between a gravy and a curry. Soften your veg (celery/carrots/1-2 sweet potatoes) in (50g-100g) goose/duck fat - add to a casserole dish. Brown your meat (500g minced beef) in ghee (100g-150g), add turmeric and cumin (if you tolerate it), then add a few table spoons of buckwheat flour and cook for a few minutes. Add water and stir until it turns into a gravy. Add to the casserole dish and cook in the oven for 30 minutes to 1 hour.

Delicious high fat curry that tastes great hot or cold. The buckwheat takes the edge off the fat (perhaps it slows down its transit through the small intestine?). So far this seems to be about the right amount of fat to protein for me, roughly 250g of meat (not sure how much fat/protein is in the beef mince), 125g of fat and 50g of carbs.

Excellent ideas. I'll be making a lot more gravies for the high energy/no fat on the body folks in the house! Your ratios are a lot more reasonable too, IMO.

 

[Ollie]

I've been experimenting with how to make a large amount of fat palatable, and the best method I've found is a cross between a gravy and a curry. Soften your veg (celery/carrots/1-2 sweet potatoes) in (50g-100g) goose/duck fat - add to a casserole dish. Brown your meat (500g minced beef) in ghee (100g-150g), add turmeric and cumin (if you tolerate it), then add a few table spoons of buckwheat flour and cook for a few minutes. Add water and stir until it turns into a gravy. Add to the casserole dish and cook in the oven for 30 minutes to 1 hour.

Delicious high fat curry that tastes great hot or cold. The buckwheat takes the edge off the fat (perhaps it slows down its transit through the small intestine?). So far this seems to be about the right amount of fat to protein for me, roughly 250g of meat (not sure how much fat/protein is in the beef mince), 125g of fat and 50g of carbs.

Excellent ideas. I'll be making a lot more gravies for the high energy/no fat on the body folks in the house! Your ratios are a lot more reasonable too, IMO.

Being slim, I've been making buckwheat gravy for my cooked lunch, using up all the fat used in cooking the meat, at breakfast, I pour any left over frying fat onto my meat and buckwheat. For salads at teatime, I liberally pour over extra virgin olive oil. Probably still not enough fat, as yet.

My protein amount is much smaller, based on the formula given by Dr's Eades in their book, Protein Power, which is based on body weight, waist and hip size, as well as activity level, leading to a total amount of 'complete' protein for the day. For me, at 142lb, this is 78g. They suggest that you need, for each pound of your lean body mass (LBM), 0.6g (activity factor) of protein every day for a person of moderate physical activity and fitness. I'm working on a factor of 0.7. Hence you can calculate the amount per meal. They also suggest a maximum of 55g of effective carbohydrate per day, and no restriction on the amount of fat eaten.

As to getting the fat in, there are a few things I have noticed. Firstly supermarket lard/tallow in large quantities really doesn't suit me! I felt extra nauseous on those. Goose/duck fat and ghee seem to suit me best, so try out different fats. Rotating them is also a good idea (not having the same meal 5 times a day).

I've stopped buying lard from supermarkets, it's solid, whereas the lard (fresh) from a pork butcher is much less solid.

This may help, or not.