"Life Without Bread"
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Laura said:
Right. I've been pretty close to zero carb for the last little while, although onions, garlic, lemon and the occasional avocado and handful of salad greens. I'm feeling pretty good so far. None the less, I should probably grab some of those ketostix.
Laura] There are definitely some transitional things that go on and each person needs to have the knowledge to monitor their own state. Also said:
On the other hand, candida is a fungus and clears up completely on low carb diet. But it might be necessary to deal with fungal issues first since people are so infested with them in our culture after years on high carbs.
[/quote]
But there's also a difference between candida in the digestive tract and candida in the blood. I can see digestive candida being starved out while in ketosis because it has no food - you're not eating any carb and ketones don't get manufactured or excreted in the digestive tract (as far as I know they're only excreted through the urine and the breath, not through the colon). But, if you've got fungus in the blood, they might be able to feed on ketones. I think most of us, progressing with the diet as we've been, probably don't have to worry about fungus in the blood at this point, but people new to the diet may have to do a 'candida variation,' similar to what you suggested, to get rid of their fungal issues before going into ketosis. It's something to consider, anyway.
Laura] [quote author=dugdeep said:
That's one of my guesses, too. But again, there are some people who are adapted to some dairy products (raw) and can survive on them though I doubt that it is optimal nutrition for anybody.
[/quote]
Right. I suspect the number of people who think they're adapted to raw dairy is actually lower than the number who are actually doing it, but that's pure speculation.
Laura] And probably said:
That's a very good point. I thought it was just the nature of the 'nutritional blogging community' for them to all reference each other and comment on each others' posts, but I hadn't thought of how effective that is in vectoring everyone's thinking. A number of the low carb paleo bloggers have started to say that the low carb thing isn't so important, as long as you're paleo. I had taken that as more evidence that low carb isn't necessarily the ideal (probably exactly as I was supposed to be taking it), when really it's just evidence of effective vectoring.
Thanks for the replies Laura and Psyche. I'm feeling better about this after having networked about it.
[quote author=Psyche]
Here are their photos if you all want to make some clinical observations:
[/quote]
Not quite sure what you're getting at here, Psyche. Am I missing something in the photo? Nothing's jumping out at me.
dugdeep said:
Don't worry, I actually might be reading too much into it. It will be helpful to see a full body photo. It gave me the impression that she might have the majority of her fat accumulated around her viscera ("apple body"), but there is really no way to tell. He seems to be blushing, which often is sympathetic over-stimulation. Perhaps related to an insulin metabolism. Both probably had a very sunny day recently, but his cheeks really look very red in comparison to the rest of his face.
When I go to the supermarket, I look around me, seeing what people are buying and imagining how they will improve this or that with a change in diet. Or how it makes sense how they look according to what they're buying for food. I can't stop myself
Thor
Jedi Council Member
I just started reading "The New Atkins for a New You" that Laura suggested as a primer until the Art and Science becomes availabe.
In this book Volek and Phinney count "net-carbs" rather than total carbs when calculating total carb intake for the day.
By net-carbs they subtract grams of fiber from grams of carbs as the fiber is not digested. What is you thinking on this subject (Dugdeep, Psyche, others)?.
I am curious if this approach is used here as well. I did a search on net-carbs on the Forum which came up empty.
So far the switch is going smoothly for me, although I am a little low on energy and my bowel movements are not yet regular. Also, I had a very short lived cramp in one calf during the night but all in all it's not been bad :)
It is as if, now that I have decided to switch to the high-fat low carb diet, I prefer things to be fat rather than sweet. I heated some Confit de Canard, which is duck preserved in its own fat and I was literally drinking down the fat and decided to not have the sweetened red cabbage that I would normally have with such a dish.
In this book Volek and Phinney count "net-carbs" rather than total carbs when calculating total carb intake for the day.
By net-carbs they subtract grams of fiber from grams of carbs as the fiber is not digested. What is you thinking on this subject (Dugdeep, Psyche, others)?.
I am curious if this approach is used here as well. I did a search on net-carbs on the Forum which came up empty.
So far the switch is going smoothly for me, although I am a little low on energy and my bowel movements are not yet regular. Also, I had a very short lived cramp in one calf during the night but all in all it's not been bad :)
It is as if, now that I have decided to switch to the high-fat low carb diet, I prefer things to be fat rather than sweet. I heated some Confit de Canard, which is duck preserved in its own fat and I was literally drinking down the fat and decided to not have the sweetened red cabbage that I would normally have with such a dish.
Laura said:
Here is footage on a Finnish news program (Sept 2010) where the Lipid hypothesis is picked apart, but the bookburning incident mentioned in point 3 above can be shown embedded in this documentary at time 26:54. The burning of Ravnskov's book took place on a 1993 program called "Maaemon Lapset" (translated "Children of Mother Earth").
http://www.yle.fi/elavaarkisto/?s=s&g=4&ag=28&t=501&a=9432
In the video link above, the head of the Finnish National Public Health Institute , Pekka Puskaa is strongly supporting the lipid hypothesis even in the face of the evidence showing otherwise - gotta be tough when maybe your career is based on false info that you have never yourself bothered to look into - Pekka Puskaa (http://www.ktl.fi/portal/english/ktl/organization/director_general/) may be an authoritarian personality type who just trusted in the health 'authorities' only ... however, being a 'distinguished' professor one would expect he may be interested in doing some solid research himself during his career, and not just believe what he's been told. Oh, I will also note, in the interview he not once mentions he has done studies on his own, but refers to the vast amount of research showing high cholesterol from saturated fats causes heart disease - sheesh.
I am getting the feeling there are a lot of lazy incompetent people in high positions that are getting caught with their pants down so to speak - showing that they never looked into the research, never did anything themselves, are recommending stuff that is harmful, and will defend themselves til the bitter end, rather than admit their grave 'shortcomings'.
Jefferson
I will just add from my previous posting after looking into the Finnish situation a bit more, I noticed there is this internationally famous North Karelian project which supported the Lipid Hypothesis and surprise surprise, the director of this project was the Pekka Puska I mentioned above (Director General of the whole Finnish National Institute for Health and Welfare).
An overview of the research done from in the region of North Karelia can be found at the following link
http://www.ktl.fi/attachments/english/organization/ppuska/northkareliaprojectarticle.pdf
Page 3, under title "Main results", second paragraph, vegetable oil is named first as being a major factor in reducing coronary heart disease (CHD). A few paragraphs down it states reduction of cholesterol being the main reason CHD is down:
"A separate analysis has shown that most of the decline in CHD mortality was due to reduction in the incidence and can be explained by the changes of the target risk factors in the population. The reduction in serum cholesterol level of the population due to general dietary changes has been the strongest contributor."
Under title "Lessons from the Project" it states:
"The theoretical frameworks were carefully outlined, in collaboration with WHO and other leading experts"
which makes me think that yeah, the framework was set up from the beginning by Ancel Keys and rest just followed the program.
I write this as since I live in this country, I need to be able to point to some of these studies and somehow counter these big-time officials that have tons of articles written and a fat CV, who tell us saturated fat is bad. I think in the Finnish North Karelia there was major depression and alcohol use, lots of stress after the war where the Finns battled for their freedom against Russia (this area is in the east of Finland and right along the Russian border) and I am sure high carbs were consumed as well, especially grain products - people were also unlikely to be health conscious. Like in other countries, in late 60s and early 70s people starting exercising a bit more and watching what they eat a bit more, and that may have improved their health, and saturated fat likely had nothing to do with it. But here a big professor and highest health official in Finland saying saturated fat is a huge factor, as it underpins the lipid hypothesis where cholesterol is bad and causes CHD. So same story here - big time mind programming.
Jefferson
An overview of the research done from in the region of North Karelia can be found at the following link
http://www.ktl.fi/attachments/english/organization/ppuska/northkareliaprojectarticle.pdf
Page 3, under title "Main results", second paragraph, vegetable oil is named first as being a major factor in reducing coronary heart disease (CHD). A few paragraphs down it states reduction of cholesterol being the main reason CHD is down:
"A separate analysis has shown that most of the decline in CHD mortality was due to reduction in the incidence and can be explained by the changes of the target risk factors in the population. The reduction in serum cholesterol level of the population due to general dietary changes has been the strongest contributor."
Under title "Lessons from the Project" it states:
"The theoretical frameworks were carefully outlined, in collaboration with WHO and other leading experts"
which makes me think that yeah, the framework was set up from the beginning by Ancel Keys and rest just followed the program.
I write this as since I live in this country, I need to be able to point to some of these studies and somehow counter these big-time officials that have tons of articles written and a fat CV, who tell us saturated fat is bad. I think in the Finnish North Karelia there was major depression and alcohol use, lots of stress after the war where the Finns battled for their freedom against Russia (this area is in the east of Finland and right along the Russian border) and I am sure high carbs were consumed as well, especially grain products - people were also unlikely to be health conscious. Like in other countries, in late 60s and early 70s people starting exercising a bit more and watching what they eat a bit more, and that may have improved their health, and saturated fat likely had nothing to do with it. But here a big professor and highest health official in Finland saying saturated fat is a huge factor, as it underpins the lipid hypothesis where cholesterol is bad and causes CHD. So same story here - big time mind programming.
Jefferson
Volek and Phinney take apart some studies that have been cited numerous times against low carb eating and show how it is not just the bias, but is a deliberate thought control system. They also describe some very good studies that have been buried because they don't follow the party line. I think it is important to be able to read actual studies and have enough knowledge to be able to spot the methodological errors in order to be able to really know what is going on. Otherwise, when some anti-carb pro-agriculture person comes along with their pathological certainty and persistence, your mind can be easily taken over.
Again and again we come up against the "cult of the plausible lie" and the psychopaths that create them and the authoritarian followers that propagate them. The Corruption of Science by being take over by pathology is a very sad situation. It seems that hardly anybody is doing science anymore.
Again and again we come up against the "cult of the plausible lie" and the psychopaths that create them and the authoritarian followers that propagate them. The Corruption of Science by being take over by pathology is a very sad situation. It seems that hardly anybody is doing science anymore.
Laura said:
Good point that we need to understand the methodological errors, commit them to memory, and be able to express these when the situation arises. This Volek and Phinney material as well as the other literature mentioned in this thread is crucial not only for the edification of our own health but particularly for those of us out there in a position where we are often in discussions about food and diet (among other things).
It is a bit painful to see the outright pathology being displayed in the interview spots with the highest health official in one of the most honest and 'un-corrupt' countries in western society :( He belittles the studies the interviewer throughout the program, and I will make reference to some of the things that were said below:
Examples of propagation of the 'plausible lie' by highest health official in Finland, Pekka Puska:
12:49 - he admits that there were "certain details where there were different viewpoints" but he still maintains that a large proportion (50%) of the decrease in heart problems is attributed to the decrease of saturated fat and moving to margarine and vegetable oils. So he admits there was scientific studies showing the opposite but he didn't change his position anyway, and just called them "differences in viewpoint" - talk about corruption of science in action!
13:11 In 1997 scientists from his own department in a large research project called "Setti" (American Journal of Epidemiology, "Intake of Fatty Acids and Risk of Coronary Heart Disease in a Cohort of Finnish Men, Pietinen, Ascherio, Korhonen, Hartman, Willett, Albanes, Virtamo http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/145/10/876.short) found there was no connection between saturated fat and heart disease!
13:58 the top health official in Finland belittles the research sidestepping the issue saying something to the effect "I don't remember the details, but it's difficult taking the cohort study and meshing it with the studies done with the whole population"..
The Setti study showed that eating saturated fat from butter has no effect on Coronary Heart Disease/Cardiovascular disease but eating margarine does show increase in CHD!
14:30 - our top Finnish health official Pekka Puska continues "oh when you look at the research on the whole, and all of the experts world-wide involved, it is totally clear that the very strong recommendation to move from saturated to unsaturated fats "
15:34-15:50 he continues " it amuses me that there pops up some research time-to-time that supposedly refutes the cholesterol theory - as if one study can refute the enormous and extensive work of the international cholesterol theory. I trust those conclusions made by a broad spectrum of experts"
- He basically vehemently disregards that there are several studies in several countries showing no link between animal fat and coronary heart disease
18:16- again the top health official in Finland belittles the research saying they are "only descriptive and not experimental research" (obviously hasn't done his homework as they have been experimental).
24:21-24:35 seems like Dr. Puska is scrambling a bit as he comes up with some kind of paradox that isn't a paradox but grabbing at strings when he says something to the effect " it is paradoxical that in this nutritional debate, if people were to follow the recommendations given, their weight would be kept in line"
Other studies and experiments mentioned in program:
1. 2005 Journal of Internal Medicine, 258: 153-165 "Dietary fat intake and early mortality patterns - data from the Malmö Diet and Cancer Study" showed no link between animal fat and Cardiovascular disease
2. milk fat (animal fat) had no effect on Cardiovascular disease according to MD and researcher Sara Holmberg who for 12 years tracked several thousand Swedes from rural areas who consumed dairy fat (often non pasteurized 'pure' dairy from their own cows) - and they had lower risk of CHD - the animal fat showed there was some protection from CHD. What her study found was that those people who ate a lot of vegetables and fruit had only lower risk of CHD only IF they consumed a high amount of animal fat!
3. In the US a huge experimental study was done and reported in The Journal of the American Medical Association showed in Vol 295, No. 6, Feb 8, 2006 in research entitled "Low-Fat Dietary Pattern and Risk of Cardio vascular disease "- this showed no link between consumption of animal/saturated fat and heart disease.
(http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/295/6/655.abstract
full article: http://depts.washington.edu/gim/calendar/hmcjc_abstracts/JCMay06Article.pdf
4. In Italy, Japan, France and Switzerland there has not been an increase in CHD with the high use of animal fat.
- Also mentioned that in Kenya people eat mainly meat and animal fat and CHD is extremely rare - vegetables and fibre is saved for the animals.
5. a practicing MD from Raahe, Finland named Pyry-Pekka Suonsivu experimented himself dropping carbohydrates and eliminating potatoes and grain-based products, and increasing meat, eggs, and animal fat, and he found amazing positive health effects on himself (22:40). He did some testing in his own lab and his triglyceride levels had dropped dramatically, liver enzymes were back to normal, weight dropped, and he felt excellent. He says quote "I start to doubt what I have believed in up to this time is based on accurate information".
6. another practicing MD and cardiovascular surgion, Taija Somppi, (23:52) recommends patients to drop vegetable oil and various spreads and margarines and replace them with butter. She also recommends to drop carbs.
7. At end of program Professor (docent) Kari Salminen goes on record to say that the lipid hypothesis has been blown away.
In the following studies, 3 big (actually 'huge', the equivalent of millions of patient years according to Kari Salminen) international research projects 800 000 people involved and link of saturated fats and Cardiovascular disease has not been found:
8. Skeaff, CM, Miller J. "Dietary fat and coronary heart disease: summary of evidence from prospective cohort and randomized controlled trials", Department of Human Nutrition, University of Otao, Dunedin New Zeland (Ann Nutr Metab 2009, 55 (1-3): 173-201 Epub 2009 Sep 15)
http://www.slideshare.net/pronutritionist/dietary-fat-and-chd-skeaff-miller-5228342
9. Mente A, de Koning L, Shannon HS, Anand SS "A systematic review of the evidence supporting a causal link between dietary factors and coronary heart disease"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19364995
10. Siri-Tarino PW, Sun Q, Hu FB, Kraus RM Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648
One of these last 3 studies showed that vegetable oils and unsaturated fats tend to increase risk of CHD.
At least Finland had two news shows two months in a row last year (Yle MOT series) that seriously questioned the lipid hypothesis, with the Oct 25 show raising heavy questions about cholesterol.
Jefferson
ps. after writing this posting I found the transcript in English for the program I have referred to http://ohjelmat.yle.fi/mot/arkisto/mot_rasvainen_kupla/transcript_english)
- this is a better job than my quick translation and looks like a good read
EDIT: typos
Don Genaro
Jedi Council Member
Kniall said:
Good to know I'm not the only one who feels this way. I had been hedging on lowering potatoes for several months now as I always seemed to get a chocolate craving about an hour after my lunchtime stew. Then after reading some of the posts here I tried it one day - a stew with half a potato. The effects were immediate! The chocolate bars at work stopped "calling me"!!! But I am feeling quite lethargic in the afternoons. What you said about fear of eating fats is so true Laura. I've been eating bacon, sausages, pudding and eggs since around November last but I did worry for the first couple of months about all the extra fat. I didn't lose the fear until I read the article on fats in Dot Connector but the programming is strong.
I really must get up to speed on this thread. I've only read the first couple of pages and the last few too and Life Without Bread is sitting on the shelf beside me, unread. There's just no time!! I've just finished reading the Vegetarian Myth and the associated thread and Life Without Bread is next as from what I've gleaned so far from the topic, I'm having lots of carbs reduction symptoms; diarrea and constipation for example as well as nausea from eating certain fatty foods- in particular, "panceta" which is a very thick slice of extremely fatty bacon. I ate that twice and suffered severe nausea, particularly the second time- it was like a kick in the stomach- so I'll be looking through this thread for tips! I've just ordered a copy of Volek and Phinney's revised Atkin's Diet book. Aaargh!!! So much to read!
Gawan said:Laura said:
Thank you
Dr. Bernstein was on the Jimmy Moore's ‘Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show’ a couple of years back which has been described as being 'essential' listening if you're diabetic. I haven't listened myself but thought I would mention it. Here's the link - http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/?p=5184.
G
Gertrudes
Guest
Don Genaro said:
Yes, it can take a while until you start burning a new fuel. It took me between 1 and 2 months, although it seemed to last forever! It got to a point that even walking up the stairs was an ordeal. I couldn't concentrate either. The shift happened suddenly though, it's like I woke up one day and all the mental and physical fatigue were gone.
Don Genaro said:
You might want to introduce fats more gradually so as to not overwhelm your system. Remember that you are going against lifetime habits, and things don't change overnight. Also, some of us have been doing well by taking digestive enzymes for a period of time, and even the juice of a squeezed lemon can help when taken together with a fatty meal.
Don Genaro
Jedi Council Member
Gertrudes said:
Thanks for the tip Gertrudes! Lemon, I can definitely do. I'll also be looking into the digestive enzymes too. The fatigue is strange. I find it hard to describe but it's not the same as the "sugar lows" I used to get. This is more "physical" as opposed to the sugar lows being more mental i.e. foggy/tired brain. I look forward to waking up some day soon with both kinds of fatigue gone!!!
Don Genaro said:
Make that another, re lethargy, on awakening and later in the day, and completely gone by mid-evening. :)
Regarding the panceta - it may be one or more of the spices in it that is causing the problem.
Don Genaro said:
Well, I'm taking digestive enzymes, ox bile, beta hydrochloride and probiotics still, and for seemingly no relief to this 'fatigue'. Perhaps it has to do with age and the length of time on high carbs and low fat. Oh for that sudden shift to happen. :)
G
Gertrudes
Guest
Don Genaro said:
Yes, definitely physical, although in my case it also affected my mental focus. But the one thing I remember is how my legs seemed so incredibly heavy, and how I seemed to have to drag a very heavy body everywhere. Everything seemed to be just too much effort. It got me a little worried at one point.
Trevrizent said:
For how long have you been fatigued Trevrizent?