Looking to Buy a Laptop
- Thread starter Masamune
- Start date
Psalehesost
The Living Force
The below is not relevant if you're looking for the fastest or graphics-wise most capable:
For something durable with a good keyboard, you can get a used ThinkPad of a somewhat older model. Newer ones may be OK, but the somewhat older ones are the most "solid", quality since falling.
I only base some of this on personal experience, filling in much from what I've read of others' experiences with other models: For smaller ones, X3-somethings (particularly x31) are good. X40 also good, but a bit less sturdy. For bigger ones (perhaps more relevant to Masamune as he wanted a bigger screen), some T4-somethings are said to be particularly good.
(though for most people not so relevant, a note for the thread is that such ThinkPads also work well with not only Linux but also the BSDs)
For something durable with a good keyboard, you can get a used ThinkPad of a somewhat older model. Newer ones may be OK, but the somewhat older ones are the most "solid", quality since falling.
I only base some of this on personal experience, filling in much from what I've read of others' experiences with other models: For smaller ones, X3-somethings (particularly x31) are good. X40 also good, but a bit less sturdy. For bigger ones (perhaps more relevant to Masamune as he wanted a bigger screen), some T4-somethings are said to be particularly good.
(though for most people not so relevant, a note for the thread is that such ThinkPads also work well with not only Linux but also the BSDs)
jordifs
Jedi
Few comments to add.
A 500$ greatly limits the choice. A lot of computers are out of budget. Easy to take a decision.
Brands,
- for good offerings: Acer
- for good quality: HP
- to avoid: Atom processor powered computers. It is too slow to work with.
I know other options and good brands are available, but I don't know if a new computer is cheap enough to fit the initial budget.
I bought to my sister an HP Compaq CQ61-200, AMD Dual Core with 4GB RAM. My model with taxes about 470€.
If you prefer:
- smaller option: HP Pavillion dv2 with AMD Neo 1.6GHz. Widescreen 12". On Spain prices below 500€.
- bigger option: HP Compaq CQ71-220SS (NR553EA). On Spain base models starts at 499€. Now a special offer for 499€ taxes included (with some optional equipment).
This is a widescreen 17.3", and most bags include wheels!!!
For your requirements you don't need a very powerful processor, few options available. I must not recommend second hand units.
A 500$ greatly limits the choice. A lot of computers are out of budget. Easy to take a decision.
Brands,
- for good offerings: Acer
- for good quality: HP
- to avoid: Atom processor powered computers. It is too slow to work with.
I know other options and good brands are available, but I don't know if a new computer is cheap enough to fit the initial budget.
I bought to my sister an HP Compaq CQ61-200, AMD Dual Core with 4GB RAM. My model with taxes about 470€.
If you prefer:
- smaller option: HP Pavillion dv2 with AMD Neo 1.6GHz. Widescreen 12". On Spain prices below 500€.
- bigger option: HP Compaq CQ71-220SS (NR553EA). On Spain base models starts at 499€. Now a special offer for 499€ taxes included (with some optional equipment).
This is a widescreen 17.3", and most bags include wheels!!!
For your requirements you don't need a very powerful processor, few options available. I must not recommend second hand units.
dant
The Living Force
Just some little notes:
Watch closely for CPU types when you buy Core 2 Duo/Quad
- they come in different "flavors" and I have seen low ended
models from 1xxx up to 9xxx - I have seen some "lower-end"
CPUs selling too high, with different screen sizes mixed in,
different [poor/good/bad/missing]components - so make sure
you get the details and do comparisons carefully if you can.
Although I mentioned Intel CPUs, the same applies for any
CPU or hardware manufacturer.
Some deals are really not good deals - they may be hyped up -
sometimes, "older" units sold as new, and so on.
What you don't know might later on bite you in the a**
when you start using it - it gets slower and slower as
updates and programs start getting loaded in and you
start having multiple programs running. This is true in
general - but performance is the key: CPU/MEMORY/DISK
and I/O performance can be crucial. Also watch out
for laptops that are poorly designed - improper heat
flow regulation leads to degradation of the internal chips
and the chips will burn out more quickly. Watch out for
warantees - some are very short and others maybe a
bit longer.
Also note that in the stores, the OS is minimally or optimally
loaded so as to give the impression of "great" performance.
So be aware of this!
Make sure that your laptop has a darn good battery
life - some do not last long at all. Also make sure
you can run the laptop without a battery and off the
charger/plug directly - if the battery dies - even with the
power plug in - it may not run at all. This might not be
a big deal, but it may be good feature or at least you
are now aware of this.
As for memory: make sure that you are not getting
slow speeds - such as 600-800Mhz - as other Mem
units can get as high as 1000Mhz and up. In other
words, make sure the RAM is not underperforming
WRT to the CPU's capability.
[edit: updated mistakes]
This can be a performance problem when you have many
programs running and make sure that you have enough
memory so that you do not have a lot of disk swapping
and poor performance. Since memory is "cheap", get
at least 1GB - 4GB, as for some OSes, beyond 4GB may
not be fully utilized depending on, if it is a 32 or 64bit
OS and internal handling by the OS itself.
[/edit]
Check the HD as well and this can also be a performance
issue: IDE, PATA, or SATA - they have different I/O speeds.
There is a lot of "juggling" around of different [poor/good/best]
components "under the hood", and marketing ploys sometimes
completely omit that information for the buyer - so check the
facts independently from that of the salesman or newspaper ads.
If they do not tell you, do not know, or give no/false information,
check it out, or get a second opinion or look elsewhere.
Also make sure that the computer is rugged, durable - for
example, some keyboard keys can easily pop off and to get
them fixed might cost you an arm or a leg or is not covered
under warrantee because YOU damaged it, or some such lame
excuses. Another area is the monitor attached to the unit -
it can be flimsy and easily breakable.
Make sure that the unit is not a painted on metal unit as
over time you might get paint chips and it really looks awful
(such as the IBMs T-series, now owned by China: Lenovo?)
[Sorry about that Csayeursost, I have a Thinkpad T770z
and the main complaint is the painted on metal & the battery
unit, explained above :( - other than that it is a good unit although
a bit old and very, very slow (330Mhz CPU/256K RAM!)]
Some units are cheaply made for a high return on profits. Duhoh.
Make sure you know exactly what you are getting
for your money, and as always, do the research!
Of course - all of these things mentioned above leads
to overall cost - but at least by being aware of what
you are getting for your money, hopefully you might be
able to determine if you might be getting ripped off or
not.
Intel CPU Reference: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_2
I'm sure I have missed some more tips - that's all for now, folks! ;)
Watch closely for CPU types when you buy Core 2 Duo/Quad
- they come in different "flavors" and I have seen low ended
models from 1xxx up to 9xxx - I have seen some "lower-end"
CPUs selling too high, with different screen sizes mixed in,
different [poor/good/bad/missing]components - so make sure
you get the details and do comparisons carefully if you can.
Although I mentioned Intel CPUs, the same applies for any
CPU or hardware manufacturer.
Some deals are really not good deals - they may be hyped up -
sometimes, "older" units sold as new, and so on.
What you don't know might later on bite you in the a**
when you start using it - it gets slower and slower as
updates and programs start getting loaded in and you
start having multiple programs running. This is true in
general - but performance is the key: CPU/MEMORY/DISK
and I/O performance can be crucial. Also watch out
for laptops that are poorly designed - improper heat
flow regulation leads to degradation of the internal chips
and the chips will burn out more quickly. Watch out for
warantees - some are very short and others maybe a
bit longer.
Also note that in the stores, the OS is minimally or optimally
loaded so as to give the impression of "great" performance.
So be aware of this!
Make sure that your laptop has a darn good battery
life - some do not last long at all. Also make sure
you can run the laptop without a battery and off the
charger/plug directly - if the battery dies - even with the
power plug in - it may not run at all. This might not be
a big deal, but it may be good feature or at least you
are now aware of this.
As for memory: make sure that you are not getting
slow speeds - such as 600-800Mhz - as other Mem
units can get as high as 1000Mhz and up. In other
words, make sure the RAM is not underperforming
WRT to the CPU's capability.
[edit: updated mistakes]
This can be a performance problem when you have many
programs running and make sure that you have enough
memory so that you do not have a lot of disk swapping
and poor performance. Since memory is "cheap", get
at least 1GB - 4GB, as for some OSes, beyond 4GB may
not be fully utilized depending on, if it is a 32 or 64bit
OS and internal handling by the OS itself.
[/edit]
Check the HD as well and this can also be a performance
issue: IDE, PATA, or SATA - they have different I/O speeds.
There is a lot of "juggling" around of different [poor/good/best]
components "under the hood", and marketing ploys sometimes
completely omit that information for the buyer - so check the
facts independently from that of the salesman or newspaper ads.
If they do not tell you, do not know, or give no/false information,
check it out, or get a second opinion or look elsewhere.
Also make sure that the computer is rugged, durable - for
example, some keyboard keys can easily pop off and to get
them fixed might cost you an arm or a leg or is not covered
under warrantee because YOU damaged it, or some such lame
excuses. Another area is the monitor attached to the unit -
it can be flimsy and easily breakable.
Make sure that the unit is not a painted on metal unit as
over time you might get paint chips and it really looks awful
(such as the IBMs T-series, now owned by China: Lenovo?)
[Sorry about that Csayeursost, I have a Thinkpad T770z
and the main complaint is the painted on metal & the battery
unit, explained above :( - other than that it is a good unit although
a bit old and very, very slow (330Mhz CPU/256K RAM!)]
Some units are cheaply made for a high return on profits. Duhoh.
Make sure you know exactly what you are getting
for your money, and as always, do the research!
Of course - all of these things mentioned above leads
to overall cost - but at least by being aware of what
you are getting for your money, hopefully you might be
able to determine if you might be getting ripped off or
not.
Intel CPU Reference: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_2
I'm sure I have missed some more tips - that's all for now, folks! ;)
Cyre2067
The Living Force
I've had a Vaio for ~3 yrs now and it stinks. I've had the motherboard replaced twice, the second time they had to replace everything since the fried motherboard fried the rest of the parts inside. Granted it was primarily a gaming machine and had wayyy more hardware then was ever necessary for internet browsing, but I seem to have horrible experiences with sony technology.
If you want something simple, easy, relatively cheap - get an older/used/refurbished macbook.
If you want something simple, easy, relatively cheap - get an older/used/refurbished macbook.
Third_Density_Resident
Jedi Council Member
I'll have to agree with Aragorn and Luthien (lol, now there's a bit of Tolkien for you there!). I used to be a Windows user until two years ago when I decided I was fed up with the viruses and the virus software (which at times was *worse* than the viruses themselves), not to mention the God-awful Windows interface. So I got a Mac. Can't be happier. Now I have the MacBook, 13", and its portability and extremely long battery life (7 hours while browsing the internet) is incredible. Yes they are pricey, but I figure that the time and sanity saved by not having to deal with crashes and viruses, not to mention that they stay useful for more than 5 years, more than makes up for that. Also if you get a good second-hand one you won't pay so much.
vinny
The Living Force
I agree with the MacBook suggestion, if you can find an old one cheap enough to fit your budget. If not, then I guess you'll have to settle for a new low-end Windows laptop - I understand that there are some good quality value ones by Toshiba and Samsung.
If I didn't have to for corporate-politics reasons, I would never ever use a windows computer again. They are fundamentally flawed on so many levels, and just make life difficult.
Some people seem to hate Macs for some reason, but I've never been able to pin down precisely what their problem was, and I'm wondering if it's a kind of 'reverse snobbishness' or a knee-jerk dislike of Apple, or something. Macs can be pricey, the 'entry point' is definitely higher, but - I recently specced out a Dell laptop to be equivalent to my Mac, to see how the cost works out, and if I took an equivalent Dell laptop , and add all the equivalent hardware / software / top-end Windows etc, then it came out costing more than the Mac.
But I run laptops with Windows, Linux, and Mac, and have used many different operating systems over the years - I expect a lot from my computers, and, based on personal experience (and I don't believe in 'brand loyalty', I just look for the best tool for the job), on every count the Mac wins by a huge distance. They just work.
If I didn't have to for corporate-politics reasons, I would never ever use a windows computer again. They are fundamentally flawed on so many levels, and just make life difficult.
Some people seem to hate Macs for some reason, but I've never been able to pin down precisely what their problem was, and I'm wondering if it's a kind of 'reverse snobbishness' or a knee-jerk dislike of Apple, or something. Macs can be pricey, the 'entry point' is definitely higher, but - I recently specced out a Dell laptop to be equivalent to my Mac, to see how the cost works out, and if I took an equivalent Dell laptop , and add all the equivalent hardware / software / top-end Windows etc, then it came out costing more than the Mac.
But I run laptops with Windows, Linux, and Mac, and have used many different operating systems over the years - I expect a lot from my computers, and, based on personal experience (and I don't believe in 'brand loyalty', I just look for the best tool for the job), on every count the Mac wins by a huge distance. They just work.
dant
The Living Force
Hmm....
What is the difference between a MAC and PC hardware if
most OSes are somewhat independent of the hardware,
generally speaking?
Apple computers used to, or still has, proprietary hardware
components that are not compatible with PC harware (and
vice versa), but today - does this still hold true? It used to
be that once you buy a "Mac" hardware - you were "locked in"?
As I remember it, the reason "Mac" lost the market to PCs
was because PCs were more "open" as Macs were "closed"
both in hardware and in software. Developers in general
hated Mac because you had to pay dearly for the development
software and hardware information in order to create.
But perhaps this has changed? Of course it has...
somewhat.
But with Laptops - Mac or Pc - the hardware for the most
part are(?) "standardized" and "open" so that almost any OSes
can run on both?
If this is true - then what separates a high-end Mac from a
high-end PC - hardware (laptop) speaking? Are you paying more
for Mac hardware because of its brand name? Can you qualify
and verify the facts that you are paying for a "quality" product
and there is no other non-Mac hardware that is cheaper and/or
better?
Is it true that you can run Pc/Mac OS on just about any
hardware platforms regardless if it is a PC or Mac hardware?
It seems to me, making sure of hardware/software compatibility/
interchangeability/extensibility list are followed carefully, it comes
right down to the OS itself, be it a Mac, Windows, BSD, Linux,
Solaris, ...?
Perhaps, it comes down to who is putting together both the
hardware and software together as a complete package, fully
tested, would guarantee long lasting satisfaction and long term
operation? What about extensibility? HW/SW Upgrades?
Arm & leg? Think long term & cost?
Has anyone checked the facts, read the blogs/reviews, to hear of any
"horror/praise stories" regarding Apple supplied hardware and Mac Os?
When it comes to OS alone - it is a matter of preference, and there
are endless "war of words" over which is better/prettier than the others,
and perhaps the same could be said of just the hardware alone?
When goggling for "opinions", it is hard, if not impossible to weed
out bias - so where can you find truly objective and independent
comparisons/test-cases for an informed choice?
Listed below are but a few items, just to get your feet wet, watch
for the publication dates and for Cui Bono?
Google "Mac or PC"
_http://www.biconews.com/?p=19915
_http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4258725.html
_http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9023959/Mac_vs._PC_cost_analysis_How_does_it_all_add_up_
Am I missing something here?
FWIW,
Dan
What is the difference between a MAC and PC hardware if
most OSes are somewhat independent of the hardware,
generally speaking?
Apple computers used to, or still has, proprietary hardware
components that are not compatible with PC harware (and
vice versa), but today - does this still hold true? It used to
be that once you buy a "Mac" hardware - you were "locked in"?
As I remember it, the reason "Mac" lost the market to PCs
was because PCs were more "open" as Macs were "closed"
both in hardware and in software. Developers in general
hated Mac because you had to pay dearly for the development
software and hardware information in order to create.
But perhaps this has changed? Of course it has...
somewhat.
But with Laptops - Mac or Pc - the hardware for the most
part are(?) "standardized" and "open" so that almost any OSes
can run on both?
If this is true - then what separates a high-end Mac from a
high-end PC - hardware (laptop) speaking? Are you paying more
for Mac hardware because of its brand name? Can you qualify
and verify the facts that you are paying for a "quality" product
and there is no other non-Mac hardware that is cheaper and/or
better?
Is it true that you can run Pc/Mac OS on just about any
hardware platforms regardless if it is a PC or Mac hardware?
It seems to me, making sure of hardware/software compatibility/
interchangeability/extensibility list are followed carefully, it comes
right down to the OS itself, be it a Mac, Windows, BSD, Linux,
Solaris, ...?
Perhaps, it comes down to who is putting together both the
hardware and software together as a complete package, fully
tested, would guarantee long lasting satisfaction and long term
operation? What about extensibility? HW/SW Upgrades?
Arm & leg? Think long term & cost?
Has anyone checked the facts, read the blogs/reviews, to hear of any
"horror/praise stories" regarding Apple supplied hardware and Mac Os?
When it comes to OS alone - it is a matter of preference, and there
are endless "war of words" over which is better/prettier than the others,
and perhaps the same could be said of just the hardware alone?
When goggling for "opinions", it is hard, if not impossible to weed
out bias - so where can you find truly objective and independent
comparisons/test-cases for an informed choice?
Listed below are but a few items, just to get your feet wet, watch
for the publication dates and for Cui Bono?
Google "Mac or PC"
_http://www.biconews.com/?p=19915
_http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4258725.html
_http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9023959/Mac_vs._PC_cost_analysis_How_does_it_all_add_up_
Am I missing something here?
FWIW,
Dan
dant said:
I just picked up the new Mac OS, Snow Leopard. After installing it, not only was my computer running faster, but it also created an extra 7GB of space on my hard drive. Also, no real bugs to speak of yet. A few pieces of software were not compatible, but they weren't very vital. It will be a cold day in hell when a Windows OS upgrade actually creates more room on your hard drive. I, for one, will never, ever switch back to Windows after getting a MacBook. Yes, maybe some of the hardware is proprietary and a pain to replace, but the functionality and use FAR outweighs those cons. They are definitely worth saving up for IMO.
vinny
The Living Force
dant said:
You maybe can't. There are certainly rabid 'fanboys' on either side. I'm just going on many years of personal experience, which works for me.
I'm familiar with much of the car-crash pathological thinking that has gone into the infrastructure, market manipulation, and suppression of innovation regarding Microsoft - most people would not believe (unless they've read Ponerology!) some of the more nastily devious things they've done over the years, and how much of that has caused permanent and wide-ranging damage to computing forever. If you'd like a vaguely entertaining overview, see Why I Hate Microsoft (it only scratches the surface). The mentality hinted at in there permeates everything, and all I can say is, it makes an excellent Ponerology case study. I think it actually induces a kind of deep-seated denial in the people it hooks. It is the Israel of the computing world.
Mac software is also built with a particular mentality that permeates everything, but this time I happen to agree with much of it (though not all). And it is built on top of a very strong Linux-style core, and runs in a strictly controlled hardware environment - this does mean it is less flexible in terms of using any hardware you like, and it also makes a lot of decisions for you, taking control out of your hands, this can be a good thing sometimes but not always, though it has a major benefit: it is far more robust.
I do miss the software customisation and flexibility that you get with 'real' Linux, but given the choice, I can sure live without them, because of Linux's other shortcomings.
Lúthien said:Yeah, they just work, and that's the point :PI admit I had to laugh when I read this, thinking of when I had a PC/Windows… looking back, I'd call it unconscious suffering
Exactly! Like a toaster or a TV. You switch it on, and it does what you ask, the same way every time. I couldn't believe it, the first time I used a Mac.
I hate configuring things, troubleshooting, re-installing drivers, gah!
let me spend my brainpower on something more important!
dant
The Living Force
OK, fair enough Nomad!
I use them "all", like different tools, and switch over to different
OSes when I get tired of them ;) I guess I would call it conscious
suffering!
Personally, I like Linux, mostly Fedora (and it IS a pain, but worth
it, if you know how to get around the tech stuff) but I recommend
Utuntu/Centos for those who want Linux and stability.
Thanks for your input, and I will keep Mac Snow Leopard in mind as
a viable and useful laptop!
I use them "all", like different tools, and switch over to different
OSes when I get tired of them ;) I guess I would call it conscious
suffering!
Personally, I like Linux, mostly Fedora (and it IS a pain, but worth
it, if you know how to get around the tech stuff) but I recommend
Utuntu/Centos for those who want Linux and stability.
Thanks for your input, and I will keep Mac Snow Leopard in mind as
a viable and useful laptop!
Masamune
Jedi Council Member
Well a Mac is looking good after all this info. Any ideas on where to buy a computer? I live in the US. Also is there anything to look for when buying one used/refurbished? I possibly could spend more than $500 also, depends on the deal. Thanks for all the replies! :)
GMFaudio
Padawan Learner
Masamune said:
Hey Masamue-
I have found really good deals on laptops on this site, www.logicbuy.com . They find current deals on the web for many different laptops. I buddy of mine started the site a while ago and I always seem to find good deals on there. They do not sell any laptops directly, they just find coupons or deals on them, and then send you to the retail site like HP or Acer to complete the purchase.
You might find a good deal on there. Good luck!
pete02
The Living Force
Well I hate to get in the middle of this 'dog-match for a laptop' but I'm no Windows fan either. However for the money, I did end up going with an HP DV5 series laptop with a 15" screen with Windows (unfortunately) and for the bucks got plenty more than Mac was offering. I purchased it at the beginning of the year but I got a better processor, more memory, larger hard drive and a better video card than Mac was offering at the time. I did ALOT of research on all brands and I spent a good some of money and wanted to make sure I didn't have any regrets. My coworker showed me his MacBook that he just purchased at the same time and even he was a lil upset when he heard what HP was offering. I also found the HP to be constructed a lil better as well. The Mac may be lighter but everything was plastic and didn't seem well built at all. imho. Of course I do have coworkers and friends who have Macs and love them and I'm not trying to bad mouth them at all but I don't think you can say for the money they're a better buy.
PS: HPs customer service was totally awesome too the few times I needed them. (due to operator error with a new machine)
A few websites that might help you with your shopping. Just so you know I have never dealt with any of them so please do the research:
http://www.laptopoutlet.com/
http://www.usanotebook.com/index.php
http://www.applepalace.com/apple-mac/apple-laptops/index.asp
http://usedmacdeals.com/used-mac-laptops-300-500/
PS: HPs customer service was totally awesome too the few times I needed them. (due to operator error with a new machine)
A few websites that might help you with your shopping. Just so you know I have never dealt with any of them so please do the research:
http://www.laptopoutlet.com/
http://www.usanotebook.com/index.php
http://www.applepalace.com/apple-mac/apple-laptops/index.asp
http://usedmacdeals.com/used-mac-laptops-300-500/