Lycurgus and Sparta - Ideal Government?

[Laura]

The interesting thing is that the beginning situation is pretty much what exists today in our world in most places. And he keyed in on how to fix it in one generation: via education of the young.

Another notable thing is the sending in of Thaletas with his music and poetry to "lay the groundwork".

There are certainly some things I don't like about what he did because they do not take into account certain spiritual aspects of the human being but for changing a society of authoritarian followers from war-mongering and greed and selfishness, it sure was an interesting solution.

 

[Eva]

I think the main points of this form of government could be interpreted as either aiming to create a society of strong-willed, sober people for the sake of the individual and society itself, or a war machine made of people who would never have to think for themselves - as long as they followed the many and strict rules they were accepted and appreciated.

Although many of the issues he addressed overlap remarkably with the concepts of building a Will, constant self-examination, networking as well as apparent measures taken against the tricks of the predator's mind, for some reason this phrase caught my attention.

Reading and writing they gave them, just enough to serve their turn; their chief care was to make them good subjects, and to teach them to endure pain and conquer in battle.

Could the intentional keeping of a people barely educated be excused as anything other than the equally intentional creation of blind followers ? Even if it was done in order to 'protect' them from the vagaries of the sophists it still feels like putting someone in a cage so they won't hurt themselves while on their own.

I looked up the etymology of Lykourgos and ironically there are two completely opposite suggestions
Either from Lyki + ergo = Light work
or from Lykos + ergo = He who behaves like a wolf

The whole endeavour does seem as a means to do away with selfishness and greed, but by introducing small but strict hierarchies starting from a very young age the system might be focused on creating a people that have learnt how to just follow orders without questioning them.

For what it's worth, in greece of today, the highest percentage of military and police professionals as well as the highest percentage of extreme right wing votes every election comes from Sparta and the area around it (prefacture of Lakonia).
Also, the concept of long term vendettas -although pretty much faded by now- still exists only in Lakonia and Crete.
That doesn't mean much of course, considering how everything can be distorted beyond recognition through the ages, but I thought I'd add it in there for the sake of discussion.

 

[Laura]

The whole endeavour does seem as a means to do away with selfishness and greed, but by introducing small but strict hierarchies starting from a very young age the system might be focused on creating a people that have learnt how to just follow orders without questioning them.

Yes, it does. But WE have to remember that a large majority of human-type beings NEED just such a structure in order to actually behave morally. Look at what has happened to humans under the rule of psychopaths. They will never think consciously or have true conscience because of their authoritarian follower natures and lower intelligence, but such people can be a force for good in the world with the correct upbringing. That's what fascinates me about Lycurgus' solution: whoever he was, he knew human nature very well.

Obviously, any "ideal" government that undertook to change the world in a single generation by an enforced change in how children are raised, would have to extract the pathological types from amongst the classes AND extract the creative/empathic types and send the former to intensive programming and the latter to gifted education classes and teach them WHY things are done they way they are because those are the kinds that need that information.

The gifted ones would be a class of intellectuals/artists that are supported by the state because it would be from that class that future leaders would be chosen. Creativity and broad-spectrum understanding of principles and dynamics are needed to chart changes for a society in times when the environment fluctuates. There was none of that in Sparta which is why they went down the tubes eventually.

For what it's worth, in greece of today, the highest percentage of military and police professionals as well as the highest percentage of extreme right wing votes every election comes from Sparta and the area around it (prefacture of Lakonia).
Also, the concept of long term vendettas -although pretty much faded by now- still exists only in Lakonia and Crete.
That doesn't mean much of course, considering how everything can be distorted beyond recognition through the ages, but I thought I'd add it in there for the sake of discussion.

Interesting how these things can influence people for many generations.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Obviously, any "ideal" government that undertook to change the world in a single generation by an enforced change in how children are raised, would have to extract the pathological types from amongst the classes AND extract the creative/empathic types and send the former to intensive programming and the latter to gifted education classes and teach them WHY things are done they way they are because those are the kinds that need that information.

A few things I've found interesting: the role of the "Elders" in acting as a go-between for the people and the kings, working against the possible problems of both democracy and tyranny. That the people could only accept or reject proposals from the kings or Elders, and not make them on their own is interesting. In a true democracy, if everyone agrees on a bad idea, it would be accepted. But if the Elders were vetted for wisdom and sound judgment (no pathologicals), they could nip that problem in the bud, and veto any distortion of their original intent, as Plutarch relates. This could be a measure to prevent the kind of ponerization Lobaczewski talks about, where originally good ideas are perverted to use by ponerogenic unions. I think this all depends, however, on the condition that the original 'cleaning house' was effective, and only those worthy of being Elders were allowed to be Elders. (Again, this reminds me of Lobaczewski's ideas for ideal government.)

A lot of the ideas remind of me traditional hunter-gatherer societies: the monetary ideas and redistribution of land "to expel arrogance, envy, crime, luxury and those yet older and more serious political afflictions, wealth and poverty ... There would be no distinction or inequality between individuals except for what censure of bad conduct and praise of good would determine." And the common messes: eating together instead of alone, a la Last Supper, and the requirement to like being in each other's company. As in hunter-gatherer societies, people would be made fun of for being selfish and lacking self-discipline (seems the opposite to me, today). The presence of boys in the messes seems a good one: they spent time with their elders and could learn good conduct by being in their presence, in contrast to the problems with peer groups Tim Wilson talks about in Redirect. I liked this: "this ability to take a joke [about oneself without offense] would seem to be very Spartan."

Also, I liked the ideas of the girls "mak[ing] fun of each of the young men, helpfully criticizing their mistakes. On other occasions they would rehearse in song the praises which they had composed about those meriting them, so that they filled the youngsters with a great sense of ambition and rivalry. For the one who was praised for his manliness and became a celebrated figure to the girls went off priding himself on the their compliments; whereas the jibes of their playful humour were no less cutting than warnings of a serious type, especially as the kings and the Elders attended the spectacle along with the rest of the citizens."

Then there's the common sense of flexible financial agreements and not writing down laws; they'd be better fixed in the minds of the people "if they were embedded in the citizens' character and training [denoting a mixture of training and upbringing]."

Plus, they sufficed on pork broth for meals. :D

Another notable thing is the sending in of Thaletas with his music and poetry to "lay the groundwork".

A stark contrast to contemporary music... It reminds me of what Schumaker wrote about music in The Corruption of Reality as well as the effect that Gurdjieff's music had on people who listened to him play. There's the quality of the music itself (Talbert's translation: "a notably regular and soothing quality, so that those who heard them would unconsciously mellow in character.") but also the potential when combined with meaningful lyrics. I think that's why artists like John Lennon, who had such potential to move the masses in certain directions, are dealt with by the PTB.

 

[Kisito]

" The parallel lives of Plutarque " are fascinating, they seem very symbolic, as tales. Doubtless it's necessary to read between the lines. I heard that it was Napoleon's Bonaparte bedside book. Was he inspired by great men or did he look for the other thing?

 

[bngenoh]

I looked up the etymology of Lykourgos and ironically there are two completely opposite suggestions
Either from Lyki + ergo = Light work
or from Lykos + ergo = He who behaves like a wolf

Reminds me of being "wise as serpents and gentle as doves," and also the patience of the hunter or predator, it has it's usefulness. In order to do light work, the patience of the predator, ie stalking, must be learned, especially in this environment.

Added: When I look up Lycurgus I get this:

From the Greek name Λυκουργος (Lykourgos) which meant "deed of a wolf" from Greek λυκου (lykou) "of a wolf" and εργον (ergon) "deed, work".

 

[bngenoh]

Ahh, the question of ideal government, the question then, is, an ideal government for whom? Bearing in mind that "the best system is an experiment," which is the distinct flavor I get from the city-state era.

If/when the question of whom the government is constructed for is answered, the question of aim will be produced as a natural result.

And another question, how is this discussion going to proceed? Is it going to be about how best to organize ourselves? Utilizing history as a guide in which to learn from, and thus proceed?

 

[Kisito]

To stay in the world Greco-romain, if you read " The Republic" of Platon there are all the systems of governments that the history in known. Forms democracies in the forms of communisms by way of various forms of tyrannies, tyrannies, monarchies, or theologies. Nothing seems to have been forgotten, while most part of the forms of government had not appeared officially yet! The best solution for Platon would be King philosophize...

 

[Eva]

Laura, thank you for your reply.
I completely agree on every point, while you also made clear the reasons this didn't work for Sparta - which makes perfect sense.

Lately there's been a lot of talk about people uniting against the economical crisis in Greece, and I ventured to see for myself some of the citizens' movements.
I heard a lot about direct democracy and witnessed around 4 months' worth of citizen assemblies.
I tried REALLY hard to see things as openly as possible, but I was horrified by the amounts of alcohol, stupid jokes and general despondency I saw.
Regardless, I thought if things got done it'd be at least something. But while there were indeed many really good ideas thrown around and even voted for, up until now the only things that were ever put in practice were movie projections, festivities and general partying masked by an air of 'political struggle'.

I really tried to see the world through their eyes and in theory direct democracy seems to me so aligned to an STO environment that I started seriously wondering if I was being affected too much by Mouravieff's own ideas - then I went through your article on Schwaller de Lubicz and Synarchy and scared myself even more. I mean, if I advocate that people should be conscious before taking their fates in their own hands, I'm at the same time saying that I would rather have them taken by the hand until they are conscious and that's defeating the whole point of growth.
Of course I realise that what I forgot to take under consideration is that this is a very specific environment we live in, so specific measures should be taken considering the environment itself and not some ideal that may never exist at this level.

Sorry for going a bit out of subject, but I wanted to say that precisely because of all these thoughts that haunted me throughout this year, summer onwards, I'm really happy to see this post here and everyone's views on it.

Added: When I look up Lycurgus I get this:

From the Greek name Λυκουργος (Lykourgos) which meant "deed of a wolf" from Greek λυκου (lykou) "of a wolf" and εργον (ergon) "deed, work".

I just realised I used the Greek Lykourgos instead of the latinised Lycurgus. Sorry for the confusion

Lykos (Λυκος) means wolf yet Lyki (Λυκη) is a prefix that means light - which actually gave Lykos its name.
For instance, White = Λευκος or Lamp = Λυχνος come from the same suffix (Λυκη) which may be of the same root as the latin Lux.

So, if one decides to take the Lyk- in Lykourgos [or Lyc- in Lycurgus] as denoting Λυκος then he's one who behaves like a wolf.
But if we suppose it's the prefix Λυκη, then he's one doing the work (εργο/ergon) of light.

 

[Graalsword]

I remember to have read several times that there is no evidence of child murdering in the Taygetus, as some traditional accounts say, but what comes to mind is, what if those accounts about Taygetus are some distorted tale about what originally could have been part of getting rid of pathological types?

 

[Laura]

I remember to have read several times that there is no evidence of child murdering in the Taygetus, as some traditional accounts say, but what comes to mind is, what if those accounts about Taygetus are some distorted tale about what originally could have been part of getting rid of pathological types?

Yes, I read that there was some confusion, that Taygetus was just an execution spot but that infants were left out to be eaten by wild animals.

 

[obyvatel]

I remember to have read several times that there is no evidence of child murdering in the Taygetus, as some traditional accounts say, but what comes to mind is, what if those accounts about Taygetus are some distorted tale about what originally could have been part of getting rid of pathological types?

Research has not revealed any connection between psychopathology and physical characteristics of infants afaik.

From this

Nor was it in the power of the father to dispose of the child as he thought fit; he was obliged to carry it before certain triers at a place called Lesche; these were some of the elders of the tribe to which the child belonged; their business it was carefully to view the infant, and, if they found it stout and well made, they gave order for its rearing, and allotted to it one of the nine thousand shares of land above mentioned for its maintenance, but, if they found it puny and ill-shaped, ordered it to be taken to what was called the Apothetae, a sort of chasm under Taygetus; as thinking it neither for the good of the child itself, nor for the public interest, that it should be brought up, if it did not, from the very outset, appear made to be healthy and vigorous. Upon the same account, the women did not bathe the new-born children with water, as is the custom in all other countries, but with wine, to prove the temper and complexion of their bodies; from a notion they had that epileptic and weakly children faint and waste away upon their being thus bathed while, on the contrary, those of a strong and vigorous habit acquire firmness and get a temper by it, like steel. There was much care and art, too, used by the nurses; they had no swaddling bands; the children grew up free and unconstrained in limb and form, and not dainty and fanciful about their food; not afraid in the dark, or of being left alone; and without peevishness, or ill-humour, or crying.

it appears that the prevalent culture was primarily focused on physical prowess and the selection of infants was made based on this criterion. So unless the Spartans had some special knowledge of psychopathology, it is likely that they followed this custom (apparently shared by other geographically separated tribes as well) to reduce burden on the collective.

 

[Laura]

it appears that the prevalent culture was primarily focused on physical prowess and the selection of infants was made based on this criterion. So unless the Spartans had some special knowledge of psychopathology, it is likely that they followed this custom (apparently shared by other geographically separated tribes as well) to reduce burden on the collective.

Yes, and that can actually be harmful to a culture because many gifted individuals have physical issues. Also, many individuals with physical issues develop intellectually in compensation. So selection by "physical prowess" in terms of being a good soldier is not a very good idea overall.

 

[Graalsword]

it appears that the prevalent culture was primarily focused on physical prowess and the selection of infants was made based on this criterion. So unless the Spartans had some special knowledge of psychopathology, it is likely that they followed this custom (apparently shared by other geographically separated tribes as well) to reduce burden on the collective.

Yes, if that is so, you´re right that it had no relationship with psychopaths. In that case, the psychopaths must have been the ones who began such a tradition :/

Yes, and that can actually be harmful to a culture because many gifted individuals have physical issues. Also, many individuals with physical issues develop intellectually in compensation. So selection by "physical prowess" in terms of being a good soldier is not a very good idea overall.

I agree, that could have helped provoke their decline.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Some more things that stand out to me in the Life of Lycurgus:

-that parents could not choose how to educate their own children, that they were instead "brought up together, playing and learning as a group." Good for teaching social skills and resembles tribal societies.

-the presence of adults and mentors (if we take the pederasty angle as an error): "there was a sense in which everyone regarded himself as a father, tutor and commander of each boy. As a result everywhere, on all occasions, there would be somebody to reprimand and punish the boy who slipped up." In this way bad behavior could be nipped in the bud.

-the practice of critical judgment of others' character: "Thereby boys grew accustomed to judging excellence and to making a critical appraisal of the citizens right from the start." We don't do this in our society - we're pretty much left to our own devices. But when it is a standard practice, ideals can be recognized, and those of good character can be recognized and their traits become what we aspire to become. The punishment meted out by the Eiren also taught accountability: "The Eiren often used to chastise boys in the presence of elders and magistrates, thus offering a demonstration that his punishments were reasonable and necessary." If only school systems acted this way!

As for this quote:

Their lovers and favourers, too, had a share in the young boy's honour or disgrace; and there goes a story that one of them was fined by the magistrate, because the lad whom he loved cried out effeminately as he was fighting. And though this sort of love was so approved among them, that the most virtuous matrons would make professions of it to young girls, yet rivalry did not exist, and if several men's fancies met in one person, it was rather the beginning of an intimate friendship, whilst they all jointly conspired to render the object of their affection as accomplished as possible.

{This issue of pederasty in Sparta appears to be a later construction put on it by Plutarch, though he does seem to be saying it was just friendship... Xenophon explicitly denies it. Aristotle in his critique of the Spartan constitution claims that the lack of homosexuality among Spartan men explained the, in his opinion deplorable, power of Spartan women. Aristotle's assessment conforms with the argument of modern pyschologists that pederasty produces misogyny. Since there was no society in the ancient world in which women enjoyed higher status, greater freedom or more economic power than in Sparta, the role of Spartan women would appear to refute the allegations of widespread, institutionalized pederasty.}

The friendship part looks like a poor translation. The friendship was between the 'rivals', not the lover and his object. From the Penguin translation: "if individual males found that their affections had the same object, they made this the foundation for mutual friendship, and eagerly pursued joint efforts to perfect their loved one's character."

-I like the pithy answers they were trained to give. Very Cynic/Stoic ("it certainly does penetrate to the heart of the matter").

-the focus on lyrics poetry and singing: "their songs offered stimulus to rouse the spirit and encouragement for energetic, effective action; in style they were plain and unpretentious, while their subject-matter was serious and calculated to mould character."

-their spare time: "Except when they went on a campaign, all their time was taken up by choral dances, festivals, feasts, hunting expeditions, physical exercise and conversation. ... the main function of the time spent thus would be to bestow some praise on good conduct or criticism on bad - in a light-hearted, humorous way which made warning and correction easy to accept."

-In summary: "In truth Lycurgus left nothing undone or neglected, but incorporated into each essential function some stimulus to good conduct or discouragement of bad." Sounds like a good goal for structuring a society to me!