Marriage

[Gertrudes]

Since I was a child I never wanted to get married nor have children.
For me, marriage was simply a paper that I found to be unnecessary. I suppose I kept seeing people rushing into marrying and have children at the first opportunity only to have their marriages breaking appart after a few years, and going through bitter divorces. It seemed to me that more often then not, the idea of marriage, the wedding ring, the paper, was for people way more significant then the truth of the relationship itself, whether each really knew the other, and whether people really knew the meaning of that so abused word love that nowadays seems to be offered just a week after you met. So with all of this in mind, marriage was for me a big no no.

Well, lately I've been feeling differently, and so has my partner. Thankfully, we tend to share a similar perspective of life. I never wanted to get married, neither did he. We've now lived and been together for nearly 6 and half years (anniversary on the 16th of July), although we've known each other since 98, and he has, since then, been one of my very best friends. Our relationship, as far as either of us can tell, is very rewarding and fulfilling for both. We share the same world views and he supports wholeheartedly my involvement with the forum. He's also been an absolutely crucial element in helping me heal from a difficult past.

Lately we've been talking about marriage, and I think that we're both surprised that this shift in our view about marriage happened within each of us, somewhat on a subconscious level, and we're now finding ourselves actually wanting to get married!

Also, I now see each act as symbolic, as a constant statement of our intentions to the universe. What for me was just a piece of paper, is now starting to be a rather deep statement of acknowledging a bond to another, a symbol of one's willingness to share at a deeper level with that certain other.

So these are my thoughts at the moment, although I admit I am still rather awestruck at seeing myself changing perspective from something that had, since childhood, been so fundamentally ingrained in me. On the one hand I still have all these lingering bad associations with the idea of marriage, on the other hand my feelings towards it have changed.

Any feedback on what I just said is appreciated.

Also, I'm curious, how do you see marriage? What does it mean for you?

 

[Aiming]

Hi Gertrudes,

I think the development of both your views on marriage makes lots of sense. The way society has been and is handling this issue would, I think, make many thinking and feeling people not want to partake in it, as it is based on false premises and thus represents something pretty hollow in general. At least that's how I see it. This starts with a non-knowledge of what love actually is, what a healthy relationship and true intimacy consist of, up to the related non-awareness of the inherent potential of its sacredness.

I think a very a propos quote from Anart is also this:

No one in a relationship should ever have to sacrifice parts of themselves to be with someone else. It should never happen, because if it is a true relationship, then there is a match on all levels. That doesn't mean that two people can't be at different points on a path, of course they can - but if they're not even in the same forest, much less on the same path, then it's just a recipe for suffering.

So, being colinear, as you two are, and having grown with and alongside and with the support of each other would then make a marriage something that develops as a natural consequence, something that has sort of organically grown.. as you said yourself, it has become symbolic, and bringing this internal state of the relationship into the material (=legal) form, is maybe some sort of merging, if that makes sense. :)

Also, I now see each act as symbolic, as a constant statement of our intentions to the universe. What for me was just a piece of paper, is now starting to be a rather deep statement of acknowledging a bond to another, a symbol of one's willingness to share at a deeper level with that certain other.

I think this is really beautiful and I wish you two all the best on your further journey together.

 

[Palinurus]

Also, I now see each act as symbolic, as a constant statement of our intentions to the universe. What for me was just a piece of paper, is now starting to be a rather deep statement of acknowledging a bond to another, a symbol of one's willingness to share at a deeper level with that certain other.

First off, congratulations to both of you!

I think you could enhance the symbolic 'power' of your marriage considerably when you both would design a ceremony expressing your intentions more clearly, not only towards the universe as such but also towards the actual participants and onlookers. Preferably with the notions of the fellowship as a starting point of reference. Where I live, tailor made private ceremonies with public ramifications are not that uncommon, nowadays.

Just a thought. FWIW.

 

[Ðekel]

I think you could enhance the symbolic 'power' of your marriage considerably when you both would design a ceremony expressing your intentions more clearly, not only towards the universe as such but also towards the actual participants and onlookers.

personally i find ceremonies to be beautiful and also a bit creepy. :P

i feel what you advise is a good idea though.

Gertrudes, may you accompany each other in peace and harmony.

 

[cubbex]

Also, I'm curious, how do you see marriage? What does it mean for you?

I've seen lot of couples and I think marriage occurs when those two bond to each other in different hard situations with love and tolerance. Maybe the problem with marriage is that people don't know how to use it, and because of feelings of fear etc. They marry to each other believing that, "that paper" will change the situation, when what defines and determine the existence on that paper is the relationship not the little tree that was cut :/

Also, at this moment as a lot of my age don't want to get married because I want to get drunk, chicks and rock.... nah just kidding. Everything comes at its own time I think. Happy to read about it gertru.

 

[Gertrudes]

Thank you for the thoughts everyone

You know, despite the fact that deep inside I feel like I do want to get married with this very special person, I still have this background thought of: marriage=bad, evil! It's almost like I was expecting you to respond with similarly negative words! That's actually why I posted, I'm having conflicting internal messages between a sacred cow I grew up with, and a new world view, and your help is much appreciated in that it helps me better ground my feet. Besides, I'm very curious to learn what others think of marriage, it will surely broaden mine, and others perspectives.

Another issue that is coming to surface is an underlying defense mechanism I am noticing. By not formalizing a bond, I was always prepared for this person to leave me, I was always prepared not to be hurt because I "knew" all good things have to finish. In fact, at a certain point in our relationship I saw myself actually pushing the boundaries to make him leave, to prove to myself that very fact, that all good things finish and that I couldn't nor had the right to be happy. It was awful! Just awful, but that's how I acted. Fortunately he bought none of it and stood, firm as a rock :D And I learned my lesson.

The way society has been and is handling this issue would, I think, make many thinking and feeling people not want to partake in it, as it is based on false premises and thus represents something pretty hollow in general.

That's how me and him always saw it as well. And this caused in us an aversion to marriage. It's like what I had with religion until the fellowship was formed, which completely gave my perspective a 180 degree turn.

Truth is that I'm very happy with him. I feel unconditionally accepted and have grown a lot with our relationship, which has made the concept of marriage begin to gain an entirely new meaning. But on the back of my head there was still this lingering conflict about the idea, and I just didn't know if by taking this step I was lying to myself, and also whether I should try to get myself better sorted before fully bonding with someone else....just some of the thoughts that had crossed my mind.

it has become symbolic, and bringing this internal state of the relationship into the material (=legal) form, is maybe some sort of merging, if that makes sense. :)

True...

I think you could enhance the symbolic 'power' of your marriage considerably when you both would design a ceremony expressing your intentions more clearly, not only towards the universe as such but also towards the actual participants and onlookers. Preferably with the notions of the fellowship as a starting point of reference. Where I live, tailor made private ceremonies with public ramifications are not that uncommon, nowadays.

That is our idea as well :) we'd write our own wedding vows. Pity the fellowship doesn't do marriages ( hint, hint ;)) yet.

Maybe the problem with marriage is that people don't know how to use it, and because of feelings of fear etc. They marry to each other believing that, "that paper" will change the situation

That's very true. Some people often expect for the world to become pink and fluffy after they marry. However, over the last few years I have been fortunate enough to meet great examples of marriages, and that also helped change my perspective.

 

[Laura]

If you are with someone who "suits" or you fit together like adjacent pieces of a puzzle, it is only natural to commit to each others' growth and happiness, and to watch each others' back. Agreeing to be there for each other no matter what is basically "giving all to one who asks" and that agreement naturally wants to be manifested in the "real world". It's just another way of expressing something that already is.

There are many practical reasons to marry, as well.

So, when you have the whole package of good reasons, and only programming from bad experiences as the negative, why not resolve to put that programming out to pasture?

Another way to say it is: if you are already married in your heart/soul, it's only the symbolic gesture to the Universe and others that you acknowledge this fact.

By the same token, people who get married only on the outside, usually don't stay married because the inner marriage does not exist.

 

[Hildegarda]

Also, I now see each act as symbolic, as a constant statement of our intentions to the universe. What for me was just a piece of paper, is now starting to be a rather deep statement of acknowledging a bond to another, a symbol of one's willingness to share at a deeper level with that certain other. [..]

On the one hand I still have all these lingering bad associations with the idea of marriage, on the other hand my feelings towards it have changed.[..]

Also, I'm curious, how do you see marriage? What does it mean for you?

Gertrudes, thank you for sharing this.

My friend and I were discussing marriage once. Her long-time boyfriend has brought up getting married, but she was ambivalent and conflicted about the idea. She had immediate flashbacks to the time when she was little and her father deserted them, and her own mother raising her alone. Even though she is a secure older professional, and her life station was nothing like her mom's, she still associated marriage with being weak and being hurt by a man. Still deeper down, she wasn't sure whether her feelings for her boyfriend had the necessary passion, whatever she thought true love should feel like.

So, she was saying how she isn't sure why there would be a need for it anyway, if they already live together and share expenses, and what it would change, etc. She asked: "What do you think, why marry at all?" My answer was, "I think that the real question is, why NOT marry?" And she had nothing to say to that, not being ready to verbalize what I wrote above. But they broke up soon after.

I very much agree with what you wrote. I also think that marriage may not be for everyone and not necessary to have happiness and fulfillment in life. But when it does come up, it is a litmus test of a relationship, of a society, of ideas we hold dear. The same can be said about other thing too, but marriage is probably most illustrative.

Best wishes to you and your partner

 

[SeekinTruth]

First of all, congratulations, Gertrudes. I'm glad to hear the potential step you two are seriously thinking about deepening your bond. I've read how supportive your partner has been throughout difficulties with which you've dealt.

I agree with the gist of what everyone else has expressed. Like everything else, the devil is in the details. I also had a negative outlook on marriage going back a long time. I never held a position written in stone that I will NEVER marry, but I generally had the same outlook as you. In my late teens I thought that if I met the right person I would get married and even have a couple of kids.

But by 1990, my views changed drastically, and I became convinced that I should not bring children into this world. I still hold that viewpoint. While I don't think about the marriage issue much at all, if the right person came along and the opportunity presented itself, why not? I would love to have a relationship with someone with whom we could bond on the deepest levels, accept and cherish each other fully, and grow together for mutual benefit.

But taking care of becoming whole and healthy on every level -- Working on myself -- is the first order of business and everything else will fall into place after that. This will increase the chances of meeting the person who will be the right marriage partner.

Best regards to you and your partner. :)

 

[Ollie]

For someone who is divorced, over twenty years ago after twenty years of marriage, a few words of support.

Enaid's post sums up the situation pretty well for where I'm at now, and suits your situation well. And,

Another way to say it is: if you are already married in your heart/soul, it's only the symbolic gesture to the Universe and others that you acknowledge this fact.

Another endorsement.

By the same token, people who get married only on the outside, usually don't stay married because the inner marriage does not exist.

That was my experience after twenty years too. :(

Wishing you and your partner and continuing co-linear future together.

 

[Chu]

I agree with others, Gertrudes. I think you have a pretty good idea of this programmed fear, and it would seem that, as you've built on real trust, friendship and bonding with your partner, it has become conscious.

I personally think that marriage is ponerized, but only because the real marriage of the Soul has been. Today, the marriage institution is distorted, and people believe that they'll solve all those fears of abandonment with a paper. But when you actually deal with those fears, and choose every day to be with each other and grow together, and each of you become a better person thanks to working/Working in this relationship, then marriage makes total sense, both in the symbolic and 3D practical way. By marrying for the right reasons to the right person, i think you are actually contributing to a re-balancing of the Universe, in a sense. Because the less "externally married" couples as opposed to "soul married" couples exist, the more marriage would take its original meaning back.

And FCM ceremony or not, your vows will represent that, I'm sure. And the DCM will be with you both if you keep truth, honesty and growing, and all that for the purpose of becoming better human beings to others, your main Goals. When you have a higher goal, then you avoid going into an entropic spyral. It seems that you have been doing that, and maybe it's time for a commitment that will just symbolize this. There is nothing to be afraid of if you really want the best for each other, and Truth.

 

[mada85]

Your fears and negative programs around the idea of marriage are quite understandable. So many of us grew up in severely dysfunctional families where the only product of our parents' marriage was pain and suffering. Why would anyone want to marry if that is all they know about marriage? But it seems that you have arrived at the idea from the opposite angle – 180 degrees away so to say – as a natural outgrowth of a relationship in which you both complement each other, and are co-linear. From reading your post it sounds like the INNER marriage has already happened, and the outer marriage would simply be a natural consequence of that. Thoughts of marriage have arisen based on your inner union with your partner, on knowing each other, on growing together. Most marriages are based on the kind of 'love' that grows out of physical attraction only, and are doomed to fail.

Love of consciousness evokes the same in response
Love of feeling evokes the opposite
Love of the body depends only on type and polarity.

Gertrudes, I wish you the very best in your relationship and may you have many more fulfilling and growth-productive years together!

 

[Ben]

I have similar negative feelings about marriage, Gertrudes. I always attributed it to the fact that between them my parents have been married seven times, some of them during my lifetime! Now I am in a situation where my partner, who loves the idea and ceremony of marriage, is sometimes mentioning getting engaged and I feel my programming getting stronger. I am glad that you found your attitude changing when you were ready, maybe it will be the same for me.

 

[shijing]

Gertrudes, I also agree with the feedback you've received above. Contemporary marriage is ponerized to a large degree, with many people entering into it for the wrong reasons -- acting on societal programming, and not truly understanding themselves, their partners, or the inner state for which outward marriage should be symbolic. When you see the results of this all around you, being cynical about the institution of marriage is quite understandable, I think. But if that true relationship already exists internally between you and your partner -- wouldn't it be nice to be able to get married and show the world (and yourselves) what marriage can really be when it's done for the right reasons? It may seem scary because of the various ways we've been wounded and because we've seen marriage abused by those around us, but it could ultimately be very exciting and joyful if we enter into it fully awake and aware of the reasons behind the commitment we are making.

I don't know if you have read the Gnosis trilogy -- I read it last summer, and despite the fact that Mouravieff is frankly a bit of a male chauvinist, I found much of what he discussed about true romantic relationships to be inspiring, and your raising this topic reminded me of that.

All the best to you and your partner as you are deciding what to do about this next big step in your relationship :)

 

[webglider]

quote from Gertrudes:

We've now lived and been together for nearly 6 and half years (anniversary on the 16th of July), although we've known each other since 98, and he has, since then, been one of my very best friends. Our relationship, as far as either of us can tell, is very rewarding and fulfilling for both. We share the same world views and he supports wholeheartedly my involvement with the forum. He's also been an absolutely crucial element in helping me heal from a difficult past.

I would say that if the universe offers you a gift such as this one, stretch out both hands to receive it, express gratitude, and hold it close to your heart everyday.

I wish you both much happiness whatever you decide.