Marriage

[Gertrudes]

But it's still a legal document which can cause headaches in the future. Be it spouse versus spouse or state versus couple or one spouse may set the state on the other. Laws change too, what is today's relatively cosy and secure institution could become tomorrow's Kafkaesque nightmare at the stroke of a pen. Anything can happen.

Another thing to consider. The following institutions like marriage and or procreation and shape.....

Religions: Increases their numbers, influence and control.

The Legal Profession: They don't exactly weep over marriage break ups, it's a gold mine for them. Follow the money, Google divorce lawyers in your state, they wouldn't exist in such numbers if there was no business for them. They only exist due to demand, a demand born of law, the prevailing culture and peoples desires/programs.

Business: They love marriage and kids. They love it when marriages break up too, means two households, two washing machines, two utility bills etc.

Mass Media: A constant feeding frenzy on human relationships. Marriage, divorce, affairs. Then there's the Oprahs, Dr Phils and other 'experts' telling you how it should it be.

The Government: Over the past decades the government has intruded further and further into human relationships. New departments are created, government gets bigger and exerts ever more control.

Looked on in itself as I've seen it, apart from this new-seen significance, marriage to me has simply been a tradition (along with a legal framework) bundled together with a psychopathic religion and its far-reaching cultural influence, where people, due to this cultural programming, often seem to attach various imaginary significances to marriage - thinking, for example, in terms of "legitimate" or "illegitimate" children on the basis of presence or lack of marriage in a couple, or that marriage shows the presence or lack of commitment between a couple.

This pretty much summarizes how I've always seen marriage. And I still see it that way, believe me! That's what's been having me going back and forward, back and forward, over and over, and over....
Also, just looking at forum members, how many have shared their pains of going through very hard divorces? How many are still struggling with it?...We have many examples, far too many, of marriages gone wrong.

Religion had for me a similar connotation. You'd mention the word church and I'd run real fast. When the fellowship was created I had to re access ALL of my previous ideas about religion. ALL of them! And it was worth it, just because something has been ponerized, it doesn't mean that it's true original meaning can't be found.

When I first got officially together with my partner in 2005, even though we had known each other for years, had many times traveled together just the two of us, have even lived and pretty much gone through a lot together, I was still afraid of giving myself to someone. I made a choice, and the result surpassed what I could have expected. Then another decision had to be made. I was living in Austria, he was living in Portugal (our home country), I had to move to UK. Were we going to take this step together, move into a different country far from everyone we knew? I had been away from Portugal for years, and even within Portugal had lived in several cities, but he had never even left his street. I felt this weight on my shoulders that if things wouldn't work out, I would have made him, in a certain sense, leave everything behind. It took a long time for him to convince me that it had been his choice, I hadn't force him to anything. In any case, a decision had to be made and, once again, we took the plunge.
Our relationship grew beyond what I'd ever expect with this move.

Fast forward a couple of years, for several reasons we figured that it would benefit us in many ways to buy a house, instead of renting. Another decision. Are we going to risk it? Who knows what will happen in the future between us both? However, you can't predict the future and sometimes you just have to risk it. So we did it. So far it has been one of the best decisions ever. In any case, we did, prior to buying the house, agree to a few terms regarding how we would deal with the property should we ever split up.

Fast forward again, a past that I had kept locked in a cage starts to emerge to surface and I have to decide whether to share it with him. How will he react? Once again, I take the plunge. Our relationship blossomed even more.

Fast forward, we decide that we want to do a "having gotten together" celebration with our friends and family back in Portugal. It would be something like a marriage, only there would be no marriage, just the celebration of the fact that we are together and are very happy with it. We knew we absolutely didn't want to get married, so we would simply celebrate in our own way. Well, this led to thinking about marriage...

Now why did I write all of the above (sorry for the long post!), after having made risky choices with him several times, I began to understand that in the right context, the more you give, the deeper and the more fulfilling that relationship will become. The more your heart opens wide (again, within the right context and with the right person/s), the more both gain and grow from it, in a way you could have never ever gained/grown should you have kept some barriers. Marriage as the legal institution we have today is not what we're thinking of. Sure, we have to put up with it, sure, it is VERY risky. But we can't guess the future, so we have to either risk, or not risk it.

After having pondered and talked about it, having read this thread a few times (which we both did), we decided that we are probably going ahead. As my partner said, it is a new adventure, a new stage in our relationship. We're not getting married because of the paper, that's the last thing on our minds. The paper comes as an addition to the marriage. We're marrying because of what that MEANS to us, not because of what that means in the legal sense, and surely not because of what that means in the standard religious sense. We're marrying because it symbolizes for us having the courage to share at a deeper level.

These are our reasons, and they would never suit another couple. This is what marriage means to US. We're not expecting for marriage to make our relationship better, we're not putting our faith in the paper. It is sort of the opposite, our relationship grew to the point that we are willing to accept doing something that has been ponerized to a large degree, and do it even so, with the true meaning of marriage in our minds and hearts.

You're based in the UK which is part of the EU. I wouldn't get legally married there, laws may change.

No way we'd do it in UK. We would/will do it in Portugal.

But now I see what "could have been" as I witness my friend's delight in their grandchildren and close relationships with their own dauthers and sons.

I know what you mean Mrs. Peel. The thought has crossed my mind . But:

Sounds from your description that the reason for the second-guessing is wanting something for yourself, something you think would've been pleasurable to have? Then I think there'd be reason to second-guess the second-guessing.

This defines exactly what I think.

Gertrudes, you started this topic in order to network and obtain feedback, here's my two cents.

Thank you ! It is MUCH appreciated.
Thank you everyone, really, you have given me much to ponder.

 

[Nienna]

I just want to mention that all of the cases of divorces that have been mentioned here is because of people getting together and marrying are based on chemical emotions at that time. Since this is not the way to go about having a relationship, it is only logical that a lot of these relationships end up in divorce.

Someone who builds a relationship such as Gertrudes and her partner has should continue with the organic growth of that relationship. Getting married would be, as Laura stated, sending the universe a symbolic message of their being together. There is also the fact that if there is some fear about getting a marriage license, a per-nuptial agreement can be written up. But in Gertrudes case, I doubt that this would be necessary as she and her partner have really gone about their relationship in a very good way.

Also, they could write their own vows, making it more of a FOTCM-type of marriage having someone marry them that has a non-christian background, such as a pagan background. I know of a couple who has done this. However, they are in the U.S. and I don't know if this is possible in Portugal.

fwiw

 

[Windmill knight]

Congratulations on your decision, Gertrudes! :)

Regarding the "it's just a paper" argument, I don't agree. When I got married I did it mostly for practical/legal reasons, so for us at the time it was also just a paper - a convenient one. But soon after the relationship did feel different: more solid and committed, with a greater trust and awareness that things would not break so easily. That felt great while we still believed in the relationship, and it worked on certain levels. In my case later things changed when I finally realized we were unable to share at a deeper level, and a break-up made things much more difficult and painful than they would have been without the paper - but that was just us.

So for good or for ill, that 'paper' does make a big difference. It will be a blessing in the right relationship.

In your case, the way you speak of your partner sounds like he is a great guy who supports and loves you well. The important thing is that he loves you enough to respect who you are, as you are, even with this 'crazy' ideas from the forum, and your 'dark areas' (which are not so dark by the way), etc. And love can conquer anything. And who knows how much he has grown or will grow because you have been brave enough to share your wisdom and 'darkness' with him? So I think you are both very lucky!

I also suspect that if and when you do it your doubts will vanish and you will be very happy and not regret it at all. But of course, you also have the right to take your time. No pressure! ;)

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Sounds from your description that the reason for the second-guessing is wanting something for yourself, something you think would've been pleasurable to have? Then I think there'd be reason to second-guess the second-guessing.

Oh I dunno. I gues one could say that wanting to have the closeness of a family is wanting something for themselves. But I would say that is probably a universal wish and every single person out there with children are hoping for the same thing, and a lot of them are actually experiencing it.

Is that a bad thing?

 

[Oxajil]

Sounds from your description that the reason for the second-guessing is wanting something for yourself, something you think would've been pleasurable to have? Then I think there'd be reason to second-guess the second-guessing.

Oh I dunno. I gues one could say that wanting to have the closeness of a family is wanting something for themselves. But I would say that is probably a universal wish and every single person out there with children are hoping for the same thing, and a lot of them are actually experiencing it.

Is that a bad thing?

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. What is most important is to realize that there is a lot of responsibility that comes with it. To realize that it's not just fun and games when it comes to starting a family. Worries will come, knowledge will be needed and there are many other factors that need to be taken into account.

Sometimes people are far more eager to base decisions on certain feelings or beliefs only and totally discard any other things that are quite important.

 

[Gimpy]

Since I was a child I never wanted to get married nor have children.

Me either.

Growing up I saw how lopsided my parents relationship was: Mom ran the household, raised us, and worked a full time job. Dad worked a full time job, gave Mom the money, and went off to apply himself to various hobbies. He did household maintenance, and 'kept a toe in', but for the most part, he was an absentee father figure. My Mom was very frank with me about having children: "Make sure you want kids, because you're the one that will have to raise them." Dad only wanted one child, and while he loved us in his own way, he wanted little to do with raising us. I saw how hard it was on my Mother and wanted nothing to do with it, or any man who was too much like my Dad. Very early on, the decision was made: If I couldn't find a man who would build a life with me as an equal partner, there would be no marriage. There would be no children, period. (I knew, even as a little kid, that I didn't want children. It drove my mother to fill my life with dolls, everything pink, and girly. All it did was drive me away from her, and act out.)

When I met my future husband, I knew we would end up together, and it didn't matter to me at the time if that meant marriage. We lived together first. He was the first man I ever met that treated me as a human being, not a surrogate mother/prostitute/house-keeper. He didn't have a list of expectations as to how I had to behave. He didn't put a mask over my face built of assumptions or fantasies. He saw me, and wanted to spend time with me, and he said he'd be with me as long as I'd be happy. If we grew apart, we'd part friends, but there wouldn't be an acrimony involved. He told me I was the first woman he met that wanted a partner, instead of a paycheck or a fight.

Our lives fit together into a whole that didn't surprise us as much as it just clicked. We're not much alike: Hubby is an engineer, he's gregarious, loud, even obnoxious. I'm a writer, a realist, that is quite happy to spend all day at home, or in the woods, without a social life. He loves spending time with friends, cooking, or going places to listen to music. I go because it makes him happy, and along the way its loads of fun. He keeps my keel even, I keep his boat in the water.

For a while I fought the whole church wedding thing. I just didn't care. Then Hubby took me aside and pointed out something I hadn't seen: "You didn't date in High School, you never went to a single dance, or Prom, your family has never had a rite of passage to celebrate with you that wasn't forced on you...this is the last one you can make without damaging your life in some way, why not meet them in the middle on this one?"

So, we had a church wedding. It did sooth the family...but if anything happened and Hubby went before me, I'd not marry again. (Too cynical to be that lucky twice.)

What does marriage mean to me?

Its a partnership, two people working together to build a life....it doesn't have to include raising kids.

The important thing is to be sure to discuss the issue of children before deciding to get married. I didn't stay with any man who wanted kids, nor would I stay with a man
who wanted nothing but sex.

Hope this helps. And Congrats on the decision!

 

[mada85]

After having pondered and talked about it, having read this thread a few times (which we both did), we decided that we are probably going ahead. As my partner said, it is a new adventure, a new stage in our relationship. We're not getting married because of the paper, that's the last thing on our minds. The paper comes as an addition to the marriage. We're marrying because of what that MEANS to us, not because of what that means in the legal sense, and surely not because of what that means in the standard religious sense. We're marrying because it symbolizes for us having the courage to share at a deeper level.

I read your most recent post a few hours ago and I've been thinking about it a lot since then. I think that you actually have a responsibility to get married. Well, responsibility may be a bit too strong a word to use, but let me explain what I mean. My understanding is that the universe sends the comets and other means of cyclical destruction to this planet because things get badly out of balance over time – pathology takes over because normal humans lack knowledge. The good times/bad times cycle that Lobaczewski describes. I sometimes think that it's rather like cracking a nut with a sledgehammer, but on reflection the state of the planet is really a 'tough nut' at present.

Now, your relationship sounds to me like a truly normal human relationship. You've done everything properly (sounds a bit prescriptive, but it's not meant to) and now you've both arrived at this point of wanting to get married. Your act of marrying will be, or so I think, a statement to the universe that here are two people who are marrying for all the right reasons. It will go some way to balancing all those millions of marriages that were done for the wrong reasons, and who knows, in a non-linear universe the effects of your marriage could be more far-reaching than you presently imagine!

A few thoughts I had this afternoon after pondering on your post and I hope I explained my thinking well enough. :)

And, I'd like to add more congratulations and best wishes for the future.

 

[KristinLynne]

Hey Gertrudes, thank you for writing this post! I understand and agree with most all that's already been covered. The only thing I can add that may be just a little different is... It sounds like you are growing with the occasional growing pain thrown in. To me that's normal and marriage in the end it what each one makes of it. So many focus on that one day and not the rest of their life and that's where they run into problems. You and your partner seem like you've already crossed those hurtles and now just comes the finish line :) But all in good time because it not a race so much... but a journey. Best wishes to you both.

 

[Psalehesost]

Sounds from your description that the reason for the second-guessing is wanting something for yourself, something you think would've been pleasurable to have? Then I think there'd be reason to second-guess the second-guessing.

Oh I dunno. I gues one could say that wanting to have the closeness of a family is wanting something for themselves. But I would say that is probably a universal wish and every single person out there with children are hoping for the same thing, and a lot of them are actually experiencing it.

Is that a bad thing?

I think that's how the motivation looks on the level of thought; beneath it, you'd have emotional factors; beneath these, chemical factors. And in the end, the motivation would then be one of seeking a chemical fix.

And while that might be universal, whether "good" or "bad" in relation to a specific person would depend on Aim, I think.

 

[cassandra]

Since so many people are unhappily married, cheat on each other and lie, I think it's heartening for people to witness that there is such a thing as true and deep love. Happy marriages - very inspiring!
Congratulations!

 

[3DStudent]

Congratulations Gertrudes on your decision! You've been given a lot of advice and I agree with it. It has helped me understand what a real Marriage is about. Thanks all.

 

[Al Today]

Gertrudes, good for you. I wish you many blessings and much happiness.

 

[PullingPins]

This is lovely, and I wish you the best.
Not that I ever fully agreed with the socially accepted standards for relationships, but I used to be a die-hard romantic without ever really understanding love. And now that I'm starting to see relationships for what they are, I'm fast losing hope in ever witnessing true love. It's just really great to know that there are at least two people who are really striving to give each other their best.

 

[Gertrudes]

Sounds from your description that the reason for the second-guessing is wanting something for yourself, something you think would've been pleasurable to have? Then I think there'd be reason to second-guess the second-guessing.

Oh I dunno. I gues one could say that wanting to have the closeness of a family is wanting something for themselves. But I would say that is probably a universal wish and every single person out there with children are hoping for the same thing, and a lot of them are actually experiencing it.

Is that a bad thing?

I think that's how the motivation looks on the level of thought; beneath it, you'd have emotional factors; beneath these, chemical factors. And in the end, the motivation would then be one of seeking a chemical fix.

And while that might be universal, whether "good" or "bad" in relation to a specific person would depend on Aim, I think.

Interesting discussion. I hadn't seen it in the way of "wanting to have the closeness of a family is wanting something for themselves" Mrs. Peel. This gives it another angle.
Truth be told I have been pending towards thinking that entertaining the idea of children in the above mentioned context equates to wanting something for the self. And I still do. However, aren't certain human needs, such as bonding and having the closeness of others natural, legitimate feelings?
I think that the answer is yes, but still, wanting children for the reasons of fulfilling that, isn't the same as asking for the company of an adult, I suppose. I don't know, I've been thinking about it and it seems to me that a child should be conceived out of the real wish to nurture, to give.

Also, they could write their own vows, making it more of a FOTCM-type of marriage having someone marry them that has a non-christian background, such as a pagan background. I know of a couple who has done this. However, they are in the U.S. and I don't know if this is possible in Portugal.

This is our idea as well. Even if the solicitor has her conventional speech, we want to create our own vows. It isn't going to be a religious wedding either, so our plan is to create the religious "tone" so to say, through vows that go in line with the fellowship's principles, which are much closer to our understanding of the world.

So for good or for ill, that 'paper' does make a big difference. It will be a blessing in the right relationship.

I understand what you mean. Thank you WK.

Its a partnership, two people working together to build a life....it doesn't have to include raising kids.

That's how we both see it as well :)

The important thing is to be sure to discuss the issue of children before deciding to get married.

Yes, that's been discussed and we share the same perspective. Fortunately we've always agreed on all of the deeper matters, and when we do change perspective, it's as if we both sort of "grow/mutate" into the change together, pretty much like getting married. At least that's how it's been so far.

A few thoughts I had this afternoon after pondering on your post and I hope I explained my thinking well enough. :)

Thank you Endymion, and yes, you're thinking was very clear to me.

As I said, we don't know what the future holds. Right now we're happy and have been so since we first got together. There is always the possibility of growing apart, but we have to look at our present, as it is, and make choices accordingly.

Thank you so much for the good wishes everyone, it really warms the heart

Added: as a side note, it will be interesting to add his name. His Surname is the same as my forename :O

 

[Chu]

Well, concerning having children, the way I tend to look at it is that, yes, it is self-serving in the world we live in right now. Given the societal structure, the schooling system, and the ways families tend to isolate each other, even if parents had a real desire to nurture and had done some work on themselves, a LOT of damage could be done without a real network.

However, I can't disregard the idea completely. I've always wanted children, and still do. But today, I think that the only way I would have a child is IF, should things change in the world after several crucial changes, and should we live in a healthy and nurturing community of like-minded people, then it might be possible. I can't imagine a child unless I imagine him or her living within that group of people, with other children, and being "the child of the group", so to speak. Several adult figures with Truth, honesty and nurturing as their goal, trying to cause the least damage possible, give the child a chance to develop as healthily as possible, with a Real education.... Sure, today it looks quite unlikely, but who knows? Maybe one day. In that case, having children may not be that self-serving if new beings want to come to life and experience a healthy society. Maybe by then I'll be too old to have kids, but one can dream ;).

And Mrs. Peel, in that kind of society, I think that it wouldn't matter THAT much whether the child is yours or not, because you would get a chance to give all your natural nurturing and love to someone else anyway.

But for now, I think that we should look at everything we do as a child. At the Universe, even. And channel that "mother instinct" creatively, for others. It can manifest in a lot of ways. Maybe that is what real mother instinct is intended for, after all.

FWIW.