mind: master of illusion

[abeofarrell]

Recently I have been making the effort to do meditation before sleeping. Twice a week i do EE first, then meditation, the other days I start with just the pipe breathing, then I focus on my natural intake and outtake of breath, and as I settle into the meditative state I observe what is happening in my mind from a self-remembering perspective. Of course, I am practicing self-observation in normal time, but I find that this extra work helps to identify fine details I miss during the day.

Anyway, what I have been seeing is very interesting. I think it relates to the whole concept of the imagination and its hypnotic power over the individual. While meditating my mind will choose from several events or concepts either from the recent past, or near future, then it will create a "story" about the concept or event. This may be a potential future, or it may be reliving a past event but with a twist. It is very vivid and as if I do not firmly resist through maintaining the "I am" state then I get pulled right in. If I remain conscious then I notice tension building in my body, and my emotional center wants to respond to what I am seeing. The thing is, what I see is always a form on identification. It is like my intellectual center is borrowing energy from the sexual center and creating the story, which my mind follows, responds to and accepts.

I think it is coming from the positive emotional-intellectual sector, as it is creative and it brings together various thoughts and weaves them into a story.

I can also see the same tendencies in daydreaming during my day. My mind takes several events or other data and creates a story which it presents to my mind as reality. The thing is if I am really self-remembering I can clearly see the process and can reject the suggestion. But I think when I am not fully conscious then my mind obviously just accepts it all without questioning. In this way it can obviously create fear in me, or anxiety, and present many different perceptions on my reality which are not true.

It really shows me how much I need to stay conscious.

 

[obyvatel]

I think it is coming from the positive emotional-intellectual sector, as it is creative and it brings together various thoughts and weaves them into a story.

The positive part of the emotional center is not very functional for most people. The material for daydreaming and the type of narratives that usually get spun comes from the moving center/negative emotional center/sex center running the intellect. OSIT

 

[abeofarrell]

Thank you, Obyvatel. I still don't fully understand the roles of the sectors. Actually, maybe I did not clearly express myself. I meant the emotional sector of the positive half of the Intellectual center. I was lead to believe that the positive part of the intellectual center is involved in creation, and in this case it was creating emotionally charged images so I presumed it was the emotional part in the positive half of the intellectual center. Then I thought that maybe it was taking energy from the sexual center.

Apart from simply observing over long periods of time, is there any other tips for correctly identifying where things come from? I still get confused when it comes to the more finer energies.

 

[anart]

Thank you, Obyvatel. I still don't fully understand the roles of the sectors. Actually, maybe I did not clearly express myself. I meant the emotional sector of the positive half of the Intellectual center. I was lead to believe that the positive part of the intellectual center is involved in creation, and in this case it was creating emotionally charged images so I presumed it was the emotional part in the positive half of the intellectual center. Then I thought that maybe it was taking energy from the sexual center.

Sorry, abeofarrell, but the above is so convoluted that it's not even wrong. Perhaps it's time to re-read Gnosis to review the centers and their functions.

 

[obyvatel]

Apart from simply observing over long periods of time, is there any other tips for correctly identifying where things come from? I still get confused when it comes to the more finer energies.

The approach that I find useful is not to worry about which part of a center is actually creating the images and narratives but to record them faithfully for a time and then look for possible psychological reasons behind them. Have you had the chance to read the psychology related material - like the suggested books on Narcissism, and the cognitive psychology section of the forum? Have you tried any of the writing exercises as suggested in the Redirect thread? You may find them useful.

You can take an issue that is bothering you and you want more insight on it. Identify the way in which this issue affects your behavior and possibly your relationship with others. Then you can start journaling/networking about the possible psychological underpinnings for the issue. In Work terms, it could come out as the intellectual center being put to use by certain images or sensations which have to do with past events in one's life which have not been properly processed and integrated into one's being.

Modern psychology and cognitive science discoveries have repeatedly shown us how correct Gurdjieff was in his analysis of the human condition. These discoveries also render many Work concepts understandable in very practical terms and show the way of working with them. So once you have got an adequate foundation in the 4th Way Work concepts, using modern psychological tools for work on the self would be most useful. OSIT

 

[abeofarrell]

Anart -> You are darn right it's convoluted. I just finished reading Gnosis I and II for the second time. The second time through a lot of it is starting to make sense, especially having gone through the psychological readings and started on EE, also doing journaling on past traumas which is great. The only thing that I am still not getting is the work of the individual sectors. Mouravieff talks about deformities varying between individuals. I would guess that the positive part of my emotional center is all but dead. The negative part however is active, at least in the physical and intellectual parts, at least I think so. That is the problem. I cannot yet fully understand each parts role so when I see something it still does not help me to understand how to work on my centers.

Obyvatel -> As I mentioned above, I have done the readings and am doing the journaling, etc. It has helped me so much. But what I really want to do, or rather see the need for, is to understand imbalances in my centers and start to bring everything into balance. Psychologically I can follow things back to their sources and look at scripts running, etc, but esoterically I really want to understand my centers better. I guess as Anart has mentioned I need to go back to Gnosis again. I will post my understanding on the center related parts of the reading and hope for some feedback on my misunderstading.

Thank you both.

 

[Buddy]

...esoterically I really want to understand my centers better.

Just being honest with yourself about the difference between what you feel you should be doing at a given time and what you're actually doing at that time may be a good start.

How about an experiment to generate more info? You will need to start with a conscious aim, made as described by Gurdjieff, so that you don't forget why you're putting so much effort into this experiment. Then you choose some goal that requires you to fully involve your intellect, feeling and moving centers. This goal could be something like: for a single day or longer, all you think, feel and do will be for someone else's benefit only and will accomplish something specific for them.

All of you will be required for achieving this single goal. Then dedicate yourself to accomplishing this goal and get started before you change your mind. You may find out rather quickly how your centers work. Having started out with an idea of how things should go if all the cells of your existence were pulling together, you may experience some unpleasant things when you start to balk, make excuses, conjure up fake pains, feel sleepy for no reason, etc.

I've done experiments like this using my work and various people in my life--ones I love and love not so much. I've been seriously appalled to experience such selfishness on my part. As one result, I understand 'projection' much better than I did before. I'm still working on all this, though.

I'd say the 'esoteric' link is to the observations of how many diversions from the goal you can count as matched with the descriptions you read, but I'm not so sure. I've been more interested in the practical methods of integration, I suppose.

 

[whitecoast]

Anart -> You are darn right it's convoluted. I just finished reading Gnosis I and II for the second time. The second time through a lot of it is starting to make sense, especially having gone through the psychological readings and started on EE, also doing journaling on past traumas which is great. The only thing that I am still not getting is the work of the individual sectors. Mouravieff talks about deformities varying between individuals. I would guess that the positive part of my emotional center is all but dead. The negative part however is active, at least in the physical and intellectual parts, at least I think so. That is the problem. I cannot yet fully understand each parts role so when I see something it still does not help me to understand how to work on my centers.

Obyvatel -> As I mentioned above, I have done the readings and am doing the journaling, etc. It has helped me so much. But what I really want to do, or rather see the need for, is to understand imbalances in my centers and start to bring everything into balance. Psychologically I can follow things back to their sources and look at scripts running, etc, but esoterically I really want to understand my centers better. I guess as Anart has mentioned I need to go back to Gnosis again. I will post my understanding on the center related parts of the reading and hope for some feedback on my misunderstading.

Thank you both.

Hi abeofarrel. I think the advice given on delving into the big-5 books on Narcissism, as well as some of the other psychology books (In an Unspoken Voice; Thinking, Fast and Slow; The Adaptive Unconscious; and Redirect) can give a better down-to-earth perspective that some of the orthodox Fourth Way literature (which are only fragments of a much larger teaching) can't. Especially when it's tempting to hook up all these esoteric and mystical concepts to it, since that's simply engaging in mental inventory building without a corresponding increase in being to actually understand and apply the knowledge.

Re: excessive imagination and sex center abuse (welcome to the club), Gurdjieff said the only way to help get rid of it is to just focus on acquiring knowledge (especially psychological knowledge) and develop one's magnetic center. This gives us power to harmonize our centers to a relative degree; knowledge can also help us heal our trauma and psychological wounds, which is indicative of a malfunctioning emotional center, without which we cannot connect to the higher emotional center and access further developmental possibilities.

That, at least, has been my understanding.

 

[abeofarrell]

Buddy -> That is great advice. I will start it immediately. The setting in which I find programs taking control the most is in my family life so I will set a goal regarding my family. I will post about how it is going and what I find. Thank you.

Whitecoast -> I have bought and read all the recommended books, and others in the bibliographies of the books. They really have helped me a lot and I am continually working on stuff from what I have read, and re-reading often. What struck me however was the large section by Mouravieff in Gnosis II regarding the importance of recognizing the deformation of your centers and then working to restore balance and unity. His concept of building a CAGE to keep out A influences has helped, and how that cage develops into the magnetic center of gravity, which merges with the emotional center. I understand all this. I also know that I am very much ruled by 1. My body's desires 2. The negative intellectual center. Basically if something is pleasing then my body forces me to pursue it. If it is unpleasing or leads away from something pleasing then my negative intellectual center criticizes it.

So as everyone has said, I know it is equally important to look at it from the point of the recent psychological discoveries, and I am doing that. But I think modern psychology is very limited in understanding the esoteric as it is mostly written by people who are very much ruled by their predator mind, and they study other people who are also ruled by their predator mind. Hence I feel the need to be able to analyze it from both perspectives.

Such a long way to go. Still so little understanding. But I am highly motivated. I will start on Buddy's advice.

Thanks

 

[Nienna]

So as everyone has said, I know it is equally important to look at it from the point of the recent psychological discoveries, and I am doing that. But I think modern psychology is very limited in understanding the esoteric as it is mostly written by people who are very much ruled by their predator mind, and they study other people who are also ruled by their predator mind. Hence I feel the need to be able to analyze it from both perspectives.

The psychology books recommended here wouldn't have been recommended if they didn't help us to understand our programs/buffers/predator mind. Do you really think they would have been suggested otherwise?

Not only do these books show you how the programs could have developed, they show you how to get them under control.

The books showing how our unconscious works is truly eye-opening. Showing you basically why we can't think the way we think with the way we think. This is all about the esoteric work. It's just put in modern lingo so that we can understand it better.

Could you be running a program that only the esoteric books can help you because you think that this is so? (System 1)

 

[abeofarrell]

Nienna,

Thank you for your comment. No, I do not think I have a program related to that. I think you have misinterpreted what I am trying to say. I have gained a tremendous amount from the psych books and I know that they have been recommended because they coincide with 4th way principles. I have no doubts at all to the usefulness of their contents as it has helped me a lot and other people I have recommended them to.

I am saying that those books although good were written by people who themselves are part of the system and have no concept of higher level processes. For example, where in the books are the higher emotional and higher intellectual centers discussed? How about the abuse of the sexual center, or how each center recharges? Hence my opinion that they are incredibly useful in some ways but limited in others. There are areas of overlap and other areas only covered by one book. I think that the concept of centers is vital if you want to see unity in the centers and understand your machine. Otherwise why would Mouravieff and Gurdjieff spend so much time discussing them?

As I have said many times I AM using the ideas from psych books, but I would also like a better understanding of the esoteric literature. Wouldn't you?

 

[anart]

As I have said many times I AM using the ideas from psych books, but I would also like a better understanding of the esoteric literature. Wouldn't you?

What Nienna is trying to point out is that, at their core, the information in the recommended psych books and the esoteric books is the same. It's just explained with modern psychological terms. No, one of those books does not have all the answers, but taken as a whole, as clues to use in addition to the basis Gurdjieff laid down, it gets pretty darn close to a complete picture.

Saying you don't like reading books written by people who are machines themselves is rather silly. It reminds me of Gurdjieff mentioning that most people will accept a teacher no lower than jesus christ himself, even though their own level is below that of an obvytal. We live in a world populated by machines. Every once in a while the machines figure something out. It helps us to find and utilize that information - with enough finding and utilizing and networking we may one day become more than machines ourselves.

 

[Nienna]

As I have said many times I AM using the ideas from psych books, but I would also like a better understanding of the esoteric literature. Wouldn't you?

What Nienna is trying to point out is that, at their core, the information in the recommended psych books and the esoteric books is the same. It's just explained with modern psychological terms. No, one of those books does not have all the answers, but taken as a whole, as clues to use in addition to the basis Gurdjieff laid down, it gets pretty darn close to a complete picture.

Saying you don't like reading books written by people who are machines themselves is rather silly. It reminds me of Gurdjieff mentioning that most people will accept a teacher no lower than jesus christ himself, even though their own level is below that of an obvytal. We live in a world populated by machines. Every once in a while the machines figure something out. It helps us to find and utilize that information - with enough finding and utilizing and networking we may one day become more than machines ourselves.

Thank you anart, this is it exactly.

 

[abeofarrell]

I am wondering where you are going with this. How many times do I need to repeat myself before people stop saying the same thing? I have said many times that I understand that the modern and esoteric literature is overlapping. I have read all the books on the reading list, some several times, and more. I am using the ideas from the books in the work. Nowhere have I discredited the books. I have simply stated that there are some high level principles which are not included in the psychology books which I also believe have much to offer. Another example is the law of three and the law of seven, including the importance of shocks to cover the intervals.

I started the thread to get some feedback on what I am doing now, and I hoped for some advice on understanding the work of the centers. That is all. Instead people are interpreting what I am saying as meaning that I am in some way against the modern literature, despite the number of times I have clearly stated the contrary.

And Anart, please refrain from putting words in my mouth. Can you show me in my conversation where I have said that I "don't like reading books written by people who are machines themselves"? I have actually said many times in this thread and elsewhere how much I have enjoyed them and learned so much from them. If you want to address any wrong ideas I have them I am more than happy to listen but please don't add an interpretation which clearly does not exist. I clearly understand what Nienna was trying to say about the core being the same. I also understand what YOU are saying, that we too are machines. Neither were Gurdjieff or Mouravieff perfected. I am only trying to say that I wish to understand the centers more, and Anart you yourself told me to read the Gnosis books.

 

[anart]

I am wondering where you are going with this. How many times do I need to repeat myself before people stop saying the same thing?

Perhaps you should take that as a strong indication that you're not being very clear.

I have said many times that I understand that the modern and esoteric literature is overlapping. I have read all the books on the reading list, some several times, and more. I am using the ideas from the books in the work. Nowhere have I discredited the books. I have simply stated that there are some high level principles which are not included in the psychology books which I also believe have much to offer. Another example is the law of three and the law of seven, including the importance of shocks to cover the intervals.

I started the thread to get some feedback on what I am doing now, and I hoped for some advice on understanding the work of the centers. That is all. Instead people are interpreting what I am saying as meaning that I am in some way against the modern literature, despite the number of times I have clearly stated the contrary.

And Anart, please refrain from putting words in my mouth. Can you show me in my conversation where I have said that I "don't like reading books written by people who are machines themselves"? I have actually said many times in this thread and elsewhere how much I have enjoyed them and learned so much from them. If you want to address any wrong ideas I have them I am more than happy to listen but please don't add an interpretation which clearly does not exist. I clearly understand what Nienna was trying to say about the core being the same. I also understand what YOU are saying, that we too are machines. Neither were Gurdjieff or Mouravieff perfected. I am only trying to say that I wish to understand the centers more, and Anart you yourself told me to read the Gnosis books.

You might also want to work on your consistent tendency to get overly offended at having very simple truths pointed out to you. In other words, calm down. I never suggested that the esoteric books should not be read. Please re-read this thread and see if you can figure out where you became confused.