mind: master of illusion

[mkrnhr]

abeofarrell, calm down a little.
How can you ever approach esoteric matters if you can't even master your anger and frustration?

 

[abeofarrell]

I am not angry or offended. I am simply stating the fact that people are jumping to conclusions. I have said many times that the modern literature is useful for me but that I would also like to understand the esoteric literature more. That is all. Yet people continue to interpret my desire to understand esoteric literature as meaning I am totally against the psych literature.

 

[mkrnhr]

abeofarrell

I am not angry or offended.

Then why your writing shows otherwise? You see, here is an example of where esoterism and modern psychology merge: You are not in control, and in order to do so, know yourself, know your machine. And by knowing, it is meant an applied knowledge with a consequent transformation.

I am simply stating the fact that people are jumping to conclusions. I have said many times that the modern literature is useful for me but that I would also like to understand the esoteric literature more. That is all. Yet people continue to interpret my desire to understand esoteric literature as meaning I am totally against the psych literature.

And you are misinterpreting "people" as misinterpreting you. If you had understood the psychology material and Gurdjieff's teaching, the connection would be evident, and you wouldn't have misinterpreted what other member have told you.

Now, one aspect can be considered. Esoteric work (the study of oneself as defined by Mouravieff) is often described as a "way". That means that there are steps in the transformative process. Now if one does not understand the next step until accomplishing the actual step, which is a transformation into a state of being/consciousness that allows to learn that second step. The work on self via what we know from Gurdjieff's allegories and modern psychology insights are part of that "know yourself" transformative work. Now this is a part of the thing, as these things cannot be summarized in a few words.

Now if you applied the knowledge from your readings, not just some theoretical encyclopedic memorization, you should know a little better, not displaying anger and saying you're not angry.

 

[abeofarrell]

Mkrnhr, please show me where I am angry. I have no feeling of anger at all. I simply expressed that it was perplexing why people accused me of being against the psychology readings when I had stated many times that I am not, I simply wish to understand the centers more.

Why do you accuse me with the words " theoretical encyclopedic memorization"? Where does this idea come from? Please support your opinion. The psychology lit and esoteric lit have been valuable in my practice, not as simple knowledge. I am doing the work daily in my regular life and also in my EE and meditation practice. I see many things happening inside me and wish to further understand how they reflect on imbalance among my centers, so I want to learn more. I need to learn so my practice can benefit, not for knowledge sake. I care not for theoretical memorization unless it really benefits my practice.

I have not said that I do not like the psych readings, nor have I talked about memorization of theory. Neither of these concepts play any part in the reason why I made this thread, as you will see if you read the first post. Hence I wonder why such statements are being made.

 

[mkrnhr]

abeofarrell, nobody's accusing you of anything, that's how your mind (master of illusion as you put it) is playing game with you. It's hormonal, chemical, automatic. A person who is in control of her emotions would have said: "maybe I didn't express myself well, this is what I wanted to convey: blablabla".
Instead, you're in a defensive mode: "accused" etc.
Can't you see that?

 

[abeofarrell]

Okay, so you are saying that my language is emotionally charged. Hence the conclusion that I am angry and offended. Is this correct?

I guess I am still not in touch with my feelings then. I don't feel angry. I used that word because it seemed the best choice considering that your statement was that I focus on " theoretical encyclopedic memorization", which I do not believe is true. It is only as I have been consistent in practice that some of the readings are starting to make sense to me.

I think that what I wanted to say was clearly expressed in my first post. I discussed what I have been doing, Anart said I had it wrong, so I said that I agree I do not understand but I want to understand. From then on everybody just continually said that I should focus on the psych readings. Buddy gave me some advice that made sense but apart from that everybody seemed to just focus on how they thought I was perceiving things rather than on the main point I brought up which was I want to understand the work of the centers and I cannot yet understand and hoped for some feedback.

All right then, I will take to heart what you have said, that I am being emotional. As I have said, I know I am way out of touch with my feelings (although despite the language I used I felt I was being objective) so I need to spend some time to think about this.

I still would love some feedback on the work of the centers though . . .

 

[abeofarrell]

Following Buddy's advice I will set the goal of understanding my anger over the next 3 days. If what everyone says is true then i must be way out of touch.

 

[mkrnhr]

OK. A mix of denial and acknowledgement. But still, when the emotional storm (conscious or unconscious) calms down, thinks start to become clearer.

Anart input was on your interpretation of the centers, with a suggestion of rereading Gnosis in order to have a clearer idea of their function. A valid input IMHO. BTW, Gnosis is an esoteric book that requires several readings in order to digest the concepts, according to the actual state, exactly like with the Wave series.

It is natural sometimes not to be clear, and the only way to know it is through others' input. Also, sometimes it takes rereading the entire thread in order to see what has been proposed, and what has been missed during the linear progression of the discussion :)

 

[go2]

I wish to bring to the knowledge of what is called your “pure waking consciousness” the fact that in the writings following this chapter of warning I shall expound my thoughts intentionally in such sequence and with such “logical confrontation,” that the essence of certain real notions may of themselves automatically, so to say, go from this “waking consciousness”—which most people in their ignorance mistake for the real consciousness, but which I affirm and experimentally prove is the fictitious one—into what you call the subconscious, which ought to be in my opinion the real human consciousness, and there by themselves mechanically bring about that transformation which should in general proceed in the entirety of a man and give him, from his own conscious mentation, the results he ought to have, which are proper to man and not merely to single- or double-brained animals.

It is my experience that esoteric teaching is a world apart from psychology, philosophy, neuroscience etc. These academic works are for the language based neural circuits the Fourth Way calls roughly personality or formatory mind. Gurdjieff calls this mentation by though, which results in Reason-of-knowing.

Esoteric teaching is for the subconscious which understands the picture-form language of allegory, parable, myth, image, symbols etc. Gurdjieff calls this mentation by form, which results in the Reason-of-understanding. Perhaps, you have a mind with a tendency to respond to picture-form language, more than the exoteric words of mentation by thought, abeofarrell. I do!

I prefer to study the esoteric teachings of Mr. Gurdjieff in his original writings for us his grandchildren, for myself. Here is a list of his original writings, but take care to avoid or make allowances for revisions approved by Jeanne de Salzmann.

1. Beelzebub’s Tales To His Grandson
2. Meetings with Remarkable Men
3. Life is real only then when “I am”
4. The Herald Of Coming Good

Ouspensky repudiated his Fourth Way system when he returned to England after the World War, and told his pupils they must begin again. Ouspensky’s over grown mental apparatus mistook Gurdjieff’s exoteric teaching for the false fictitious consciousness, as his true esoteric teaching which is intended for the subconscious as the short paragraph above makes clear. This is what C. S. Nott had to say about Ouspensky’s pupils.

I liked Ouspensky’s pupils, some very much. But, in relation to myself, it was as if they were in a magic circle. Gurdjieff relates that he saw a Yezidi boy trying to get out of the circle drawn around him in the dust. Even when Gurdjieff went up to him and tried to pull him he could not get out. Only when the circle had been broken was he able to escape.

Everyone and those in every organization tends to get into a magic circle—to become hypnotized, and until the circle is broken by another force there can be no escape., which perhaps is why Gurdjieff so often liquidated the Institute and groups—and people. The Sufis, when work has reached a certain stage, ‘liquidate’ it and begin something new.

 

[abeofarrell]

I agree that Anart's opinion was valid, though I would have preferred it if she stated specifically where i am mistaken. I have read Gnosis I 3 times and Gnosis II and III twice but the description of the centers still eludes me. The first time I read it I understood nothing, but after doing the psych readings and lots more self-observation and EE I understand more. I just finished reading Gnosis II which says that understanding deformation in your centers is vital, that is why I hoped for specific feedback. For eg, if i am struggling with unrecognized anger is it coming from the negative part of the emotional center in the moving sector? Is it my moving center usurping sexual energy? I really don't understand. Each center has 6 sectors, right?

 

[abeofarrell]

Go2, thank you for your feedback. I am currently a third of the way through Beelzebub, it is tough reading. Actually psych readings also bring effective shocks for me but i tend to get too thinking focused. Esoteric writing speaks more to my numbed emotional center

(edited a typo)

 

[shijing]

You may have already looked at it, abeofarrell, but in case you haven't, there are several entries on Centers in the Cassiopaea Glossary. If you haven't read these yet, they might be useful to you (and provide some additional perspective as you're going through Gnosis).

 

[abeofarrell]

Shijing, thank you. I have read it. If I only consider each center with it's positive and negative half then I am okay, but when I break it down into the six centers (intellectual-intellectual, intellectual-emotional, intellectual-moving, etc) then I become very unsure. How do I know if something is from the negative emotional part of the intellectual center or the negative intellectual part of the emotional center? If I cannot recognize that then how do I know where the problem lies?

 

[abeofarrell]

I think part of the problem is that when someone responds critically to what i write then I feel strong emotional pressure to respond immediately. I was working in the morning today but as responses came it I almost had a stomach ache the urge to respond was so strong. I think that although on one level I WANT critical, objective feedback, my personality takes it as an attack. So maybe on one level I was not angry, but on another level there was continual anger there in the background which is so constant I no longer recognize it. I think that from now on if I get a response I should spend a day just reading through what everyone says and calming down totally before giving a response.

In fact I am truly starting to think that there is a constant level of anger happening within my personality. It is constant so I do not notice it. I say this because since I posted that I will monitor my anger I have flared up at least 8 times. And after flaring up the tension in my facial muscles and shoulders does not abate. Anyway, I will continue to monitor it for the next 3 days.

 

[shijing]

How do I know if something is from the negative emotional part of the intellectual center or the negative intellectual part of the emotional center? If I cannot recognize that then how do I know where the problem lies?

To be honest, I'm still working on understanding the finer details of the centers myself, so I'm afraid I can't give you a concise answer (someone with a better understanding may be able to at some point). However, related to what some of the other mods and members have said above about the psych books, the way I approach the problem is to use these as a proxy until the time at which I do completely understand the subdivisions of the centers and how they function (at which point the psych books will become a complement).

If your goal is to understand and clean your machine, then the best practical method is to pursue all available avenues (which you said you're doing in reading/using both the recommended esoteric and psych literature). As long as you understand at least one of them, then you've got something to Work with, and it may require some patience and perseverance in order to attain a complete understanding of the other. That's my current attitude, at least.

Also, when you said earlier that you weren't feeling angry -- were you feeling frustrated? If so, frustration and anger are intertwined, and can lead to the same reactions. If you re-read the exchanges above, this might help you understand how you were being perceived.

Added:

I think part of the problem is that when someone responds critically to what i write then I feel strong emotional pressure to respond immediately. I was working in the morning today but as responses came it I almost had a stomach ache the urge to respond was so strong. I think that although on one level I WANT critical, objective feedback, my personality takes it as an attack. So maybe on one level I was not angry, but on another level there was continual anger there in the background which is so constant I no longer recognize it. I think that from now on if I get a response I should spend a day just reading through what everyone says and calming down totally before giving a response.

In fact I am truly starting to think that there is a constant level of anger happening within my personality. It is constant so I do not notice it. I say this because since I posted that I will monitor my anger I have flared up at least 8 times. And after flaring up the tension in my facial muscles and shoulders does not abate. Anyway, I will continue to monitor it for the next 3 days.

I think you may have just understood yourself a bit better and realized something important :)