my ignorance

aaron, all I can tell you is to read "The Wave" which is, basically, me working my way through pretty much the same questions. Of course, the raison behind the experiment is in "Amazing Grace" which is no longer in print, but if you search the forum here using those terms, you will find excerpts, and I think the part where I was dealing with the issues of why such an experiment, how, and so forth, are quoted here in the forum.
 
Hello Aaron,

I would suggest a certain book:

"Sync: How Order Emerges From Chaos In the Universe, Nature, and Daily Life"

by Steven Strogatz.

I have wanted to write a review of it for this forum for quite some time but have not had the time to do it justice. Plus, it could not be considered a high-priority read for those who interest themselves in the same subjects as this forum is interested in.

However, it is a very pleasant read about the process of scientific discovery. It is a brief history of the studies of spontaneous order, which is largely involved in studying particular examples such as the synchronous blinking of a certain species of lightning bug in Asia (and in a particular region of the Smoky Mountains in the US) and Huyghen's observation of pendulums synchronising. It is written for the popular public and flows very naturally. Not only do we get a glimpse of the human side of scientific research but also a glimpse into the difficulties of studying nonlinear phenomenon.

An important message of the book is that it appears there are non-linear phenomenon to be studied that do not lend themselves easily or well to the standard approach of isolating one parameter and then designing an experiment to explore that single parameter. The book also makes clear that we just don't understand how to study these phenomenon when the standard approach does not suffice.

So... How de we study something when the standard single parameter approach fails? For one thing, we must be very, very careful, but at the same time, we can not let our inability to control everything but one parameter stop us from figuring out how to study it.

With the subject of the emergence of spontaneous order, should the scientists who study it let their inability to do so by isolating one parameter stop them from exploring what could possibly be a sort of complementary principle to entropy?
 
Sorry for the malformed hyperlink. It should have been: _http://www.FoolQuest.com/atheism.htm#chaos It was a late night.
[link again deactivated by moderator - please do not leave your personal blog link active on this forum]

SeekinTruth, yours seems like a blatant tu quoque. You ask what are the standards of evidence for mainstream science? It is an ongoing question as to how well science as in actual practice, lives up to its own fundamental protocols. And unless one dismisses the entirety of mainstream science and all of its obvious accomplishments and progress, then that is a matter for case by case scrutiny, according to your own curiosity. Your own responsibility however, surely remains first in the application of standards of evidence to your own inquiry. Only then can you seek to fill gaps that might be found elsewhere. And I still await intelligible answer to my standing questions that are the barest starting point to all inquiry. Indeed, Laura, if you have worked your way through the same questions, then have you answered them? And Patience, as for your book recommendation, thanks, maybe later. First things first.
 
AaronAgassi said:
And Patience, as for your book recommendation, thanks, maybe later. First things first.

Of course, however, did you get the point of my post? In studying nonlinear phenomeon, scientists are using very different methods than the standard approach of isolating a single parameter experimentally with a refutable hypothesis pertaining to it. Mostly, they have to make mathmatical models, and then if they hit on something, have to wonder if their math really reflects reality or is just a reflection of the order within the math itself. I only suggest the book because it provides concrete examples of how mainstream scientists are trying to tackle subtle and difficult to apprehend nonlinear phenomenon. Coincidentally, the author also briefly tells the story of how a brilliant physicist named Brian Josephson became a pariah in the physics community by being curious about the wrong things.

If I could define the Cassiopaean experiment in one sentence, it would be that we would like to understand how religion and science COULD interact to describe objective reality in the most profound possible sense according to the limits of our current existence, and finally, to express our understanding.

The channeling of the C's is the inspiration for the research of many of the members of this forum. Microcosmically, our own lives are the crucible of the experiment. For example, the dietary protocols many of us practice and/or experiment with have followed from the directions of research inspired by the C's. The standard of evidence is the increased quality of life that many have experienced afterwards. Indeed some of us have had our lives saved by this research.

Macrocosmically, our ability to understand the political scene and to make predictions about the overall direction of our world as a whole is the domain of the experiment. The studies of psychopathology in places of power is a result of our direction of research, and it certainly explains a lot about the world we live in.

I imagine we would do a rigorous experiment on superluminal communication (the proposed mode of communication with the C's) if we could, but I think we do not yet know how to do this. Ark has made a mathematical theory on superluminal communication that was published in a peer reviewed journal (not that there aren't problems with peer review but that is a whole other can of worms). I am not skilled enough to follow the math myself, and math does not necessarily describe reality. Assuming that he was rigorous in his work (and knowing Ark, he was; I simply can not check it myself), then a logically coherent, mathematical picture of how superluminal communication could work does exist.

As for Laura's reading suggestion... There is no reason for her to reiterate her own journey in this thread when it is available by clicking on a link. It took her a long time and a lot of work to get where she is now. There can not be a nice 3-paragraph answer to your question. Read her work and see what you think.
 
AaronAgassi said:
SeekinTruth, yours seems like a blatant tu quoque.
Your own responsibility however, surely remains first in the application of standards of evidence to your own inquiry.
And I still await intelligible answer to my standing questions that are the barest starting point to all inquiry.
Indeed, Laura, if you have worked your way through the same questions, then have you answered them?
And Patience, as for your book recommendation, thanks, maybe later. First things first.

From the above quotes one gets the impression that you seem to feel it is other people's responsibility to inform you about matters that you could easily have looked up yourself from the provided links.
To me it comes off like you feel like you have the upper hand in an imaginary conflict between you and this forum. If you really are interested in the answers you seem to want, look up the information in the links given to you.

If you don't want to do that, it seems to me that your motives for repeating standardized phrases of knowledge and surety on this forum is connected to an emotional reaction you have to the existence of this forum, maybe based on prejudiced and uninformed thoughts about what Laura has been doing all these years.
 
AaronAgassi said:
Only where channeling ever established, only then would there be much need of a physical explanation of channeling, beyond speculation for its own sake. No Bluelamp, I only took an example from Astrophysics for purposes of illustration. What I am ask is: What is that question to which the answer begins something like: "That can best be explained by the existence of those other worlds and their properties...

My daughter has an Alvin and the Chipmunks video where Dave says to Alvin that Chipmunks can't talk. Alvin responds that his lips are moving and words are coming out. Well for channeling, Laura's hand moves and words get formed. Laura was a hypnotherapist before the channeling experiment and it's not exactly difficult to imagine a hypnotherapist getting interested in channeling as another way to explore the mind.

So it started with the mind and when the words from channeling seemed more outside the mind, more a Jungian collective unconscious thing then you do want to explore physics to see if it has anything that might link to something like Jung's collective unconscious. You really do need to read the Wave to see how Laura got from mind to "collective unconscious" to physics.
 
Hi AaronAgassi,

At the risk of stating the obvious, would you be interested in knowing more about some methods in use here, have a look at the following and get educated:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participant_observation

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_work

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_Action_Research

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualitative_research

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtrusive_measures

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_observation
 
AaronAgassi said:
obyvatel, you say that science has not refuted channeling. But science is the competition among viable hypotheses. And I am as yet aware of no viable hypothesis of channeling to begin with. But then, I still don't know what yours is. So I cannot assay the viability thereof against any other known competing hypotheses. I still don't even know what question or problem demands explanatory resolution by whatever known competing viable hypotheses.

You complain that my standing questions don't make sense to any of you. But they are only the standard questions intrinsic to all science. So if they don't make sense to you, then you so not understand what is science. Without exactly that line of questioning, there is no science, no effective Empirical investigation of reality. Without the answers to my fundamental questions, nothing that you offer makes any intelligible sense to me.

Science started with open minded people inquiring about the world and using observation as well as analysis to create frameworks of understanding. Scientific enquiry into complex subjects - specially when delving into uncharted territory do not typically start with asking "what is the hypothesis, what is the condition for refutation etc " to the best of my knowledge. A history of science will perhaps bear out the truth of this proposition.

The approach that you have taken here does not seem to include open minded inquiry but approaching a complex topic with a small box of a ill-defined set of criteria - at least you have not made the effort to define what you speak of in this specific context. You disagree with the premise of the questions that have led to the inquiry and you keep insisting "what is the hypothesis". A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for questions or phenomena - but before the explanation comes the inquiry, the research, data collection, analysis etc. It is still not clear from your posts whether you are inquiring about the channeling per se or the overall process of inquiry of which channeling is only one component.

There are hypothesis formed from long study of a lot of material from diverse fields of study - but to understand that one needs to put in the personal effort. If you happened to go to a scientific conference discussing advanced physics without having any background material on the subject and start insisting that others explain to you what is going on, you would in the best case be politely directed to background material that need to be read and assimilated before any reasonable discussion can take place. If you still keep insisting that somehow you are entitled to a better explanation and demand that people answer your questions, then after some time one would call security and you will be ushered out of the conference.

We are not here to convince anyone of anything - we are not selling a belief. So if you decide on making personal efforts to understand what is going on here through the study of suggested material - you are most welcome. Otherwise, if you insist on repeating the same phrases over and over again without any sense of context, then you are free to ask your own questions, form your own hypothesis and standards of refutation and go from there - since this forum would not be a good place for you.
 
What I find fascinating is that despite repeatedly asking an excessively vague question, 19 forum members have attempted to reply to you with vast amounts of information and sincerity. Your replies are evidence of one of two things:

1. An inherent inability to grasp the crux of the matter (it's beyond you)
or
2. Trolling on your part just for the sake of asking vague questions to get others to jump through hoops in order to supply you, on a platter, with what you could figure out yourself - if you were capable of grasping the crux of the matter.

In short, I am again impressed with the quality of minds on this forum in dealing with you and think that it is blatantly, painfully, obvious that if you were sincere and capable of understanding the information provided, you would have already. Thus, this forum is clearly not for you and you will be much - much - happier dwelling on your blog and other forums that won't tax your thinking and assumptions quite this much.
 
Hi AaronAgassi.

Gurdjieff said that when a person reaches a certain level in his development and awareness he is in reach of help. He didn't say what that help would be or that one would even recognize the form of it necessarily.

Changing perspectives, from the point of view of the inductive inferential cognitive process, an explicit hypothesis is needed less than a simple trust that "there must be something there and if there is something there, it can be discovered."

As example, the way I see the question, the investigation into hyper-dimensionality is not so much pattern matching with previously learned info as simply approaching the problem with an open mind. Sort of like how, as a senior architect, someone presents you with a tentative drawing for a walking park consisting of a system of 15 bridges over various streams and natural obstacles.

You don't have to pencil-trace the entire system to "work out" whether it's possible to walk one complete circuit and return to the starting point while using all the bridges only once. Part of you can simply "infer/intuit" (enter the secret world of walks and bridges :)) that it can't be done without modifying the "map". So you draw another bridge somewhere and tell the other person that if they don't believe you, it's ok, but they may want to use their own pencil lead to trace the route and see for themselves.

These are just my personal thoughts, but maybe they will help a bit. :)
 
Science is systematic doubt as delineated in the rigor of Scientific Method. Aside from the admonition not to play favorites, where then is the open mindedness of science? The inquiry of science springs forth from open mindedness. All hypothesis begins as unfounded conjecture, only thereafter subjected first to critical preference and then to Empirical investigation of external reality. Thus the standard crucial questions that I have pressed proceed only from the open mindedness and the intelligibility of science, no more and no less. Again, what is the problematic question (that presumably is not well enough answerable without channeling)? What is the hypothesis (presumably somehow or other concerned with channeling) that comes in answer thereto and how so? How is said hypothesis being tested and what would be the conditions of refutation? In other words: What results are hoped for in corroboration, but most crucially, what conceivable results would have to be accepted as refutation? What are the experimental controls? Without first the coherent framing of refutable hypothesis, all remains vague and inconclusive. And without experimental controls, there are simply too many variables, known and unknown, to narrow interpretation of the results. That is all that I am concerned with, because I am serious.
 
AaronAgassi said:
jada jada jada... And without experimental controls, there are simply too many variables, known and unknown, to narrow interpretation of the results. That is all that I am concerned with, because I am serious.

So You want proof. If You are serious then... "go git some" ;)

You've been provided with links aplenty. Shouldn't be hard...
 
AaronAgassi said:
Science is systematic doubt ...

Science is also a constant faith. Faith that the world can be scientifically studied and understood. Faith in your own capacities of learning and understanding. Faith you are not in a sleep. Science is also a game. Without playing you would be never able to discover anything really new. Science is impossible without "intuition", and intuition implies going beyond already established methods and protocols. Without that doing anything truly creative in science is impossible. If, what you call "scientific method" would work - everybody could be making great scientific discoveries. But it is not so. Scientific method helps you to verify the discoveries made by those that did not rely on just "scientific method" and nothing more. But also scientific method develops with time. Science is not dead. It extends its boundaries. Scientific methods are being modified when new phenomena are being discovered that do not fit into the old scientific method. If this happens, with time, new scientific methods are being invented, tested, improved.

If you would like, I could suggested some reading material that deals with these issues.
 
I come back to the point that you are making assumptions of which we can only guess. This puts respondents not only at a disadvantage but also could lead to constantly feeding you until you are full, to no known benefit of others but to yourself.

So, since this is not a debating society and to avoid such frustrations, feeding dynamics and drains of valuable energy that could be directed toward common aims, I suggest you first address the assumptions that seem to lock you into circular discourse.

If your assumption is that the Cassiopaea Experiment is presented a scientific experiment that follows the conventional norms of scientific method, then, in my limited understanding of said method, I would have to say that you are sorely wrong. Any discussion that continues along such an assumption will only continue to be erroneous, since there is a disconnect between terms of reference for involved parties.

As Patience so eloquently stated earlier, we should not let the inability to measure that which cannot be measured beyond doubt prevent honest attempts to quantify and qualify as much as possible.

You also make the false assumption that some declaration or result of some scientific experiment has been published and invitations for comment have been issued, which you have misguidedly or dellusionally interpreted as an invitation for your opinion. Nothing of the sort has occurred, so it seems bizarre that you would enter this forum to debate that which has not occurred.
However, in the hope of opening your mind to other possibilities, I offer this. if science never made attempts to study the immeasurable, new tools , methods and approaches would rarely evolve beyond seeking efficiencies within the status quo. Such attempts, as rare as they are, are what force us to consider new paradigms and creates sufficient friction within the few minds that exist within established science to invest some of their creative minds into breaking away from old paradigms and seeking to achieve a deeper understanding of areas previously ignored by science. Perhaps the immeasurable could be measured if enough creative, scientific minds had sufficient impetus.

I work in the area of performance measurement of communications (in the sense of PR, marketing, etc.), particularly online communications. Communications is an area traditionally left to measuring outputs rather than outcomes, since measuring outcomes requires either survey techniques applied to samples of targeted audiences that involve the subjectivity of the respondents or direct observation through objective third parties, which is cost prohibitive to observe sufficient sample sizes. So, since either measurement approach carried issues with validity and extraordinary cost, they end up being abandoned.

However, in performance measurement, there's a concept of "good enough" and the notion that some information is better than no information. "Good enough" is a factor where you achieve sufficient information to make inferences within acceptable tolerance levels for validity, which puts us in the realm of probabilities. And having some measurements that can be reproduced to provide consistency over time, gives us baselines and vectors to work with as we refine strategic communications planning.

In my mind, we have to take a similar approach to what has traditionally been considered the immeasurable or unquantifiable. In the absence of such attempts, we end up with narrow thinking that rarely creates new discoveries outside the confines of established or conventional theories. The best that could occur in such an absence allows would be to think outside of the box but within a slightly larger box.

In the case of science versus spiritualism or religion, arrogance and disdain form on both extremes and great energy is invested in proving the other wrong and, depending on who's in power at the time, people on one side or the other run the risk of getting burned at the stake.

However, when shifting paradigms to try to bridge the two, we open ourselves to uncover areas previously ignored and new worlds of discovery and mutual validation may emerge that would otherwise remain known to all involved.

This, I believe, is where the Cassiopaean Experiment comes into play. And yes, I was alluding to the broader use of the term "experiment", but want you to understand that, unlike adolescent experimentation, this experiment was initially, from my understanding, approached with a greater understanding of the issues related to ensuring validity as much as possible.

As such, since this is not an experiment in the sense you are looking for, I am doubtful your initial line of inquiry wrt single hypothesis will be satisfied.

In my mind, this experiment lies on an axis where, at one end is scientific method and the other, fiddling with knobs to see what will happen, and place it significantly closer to the former than the latter.
Laura did state in her writing the how's and why's, including her choices to for mitigation against known, unknown and unexpected influence, as much as possible without making such an experiment impossible. However, it doesn't seem to me that the purpose of the experiment was to prove any single hypothesis, rather to provide new areas for investigation.

I trust you can somehow feel solace that no scientific, controlled experiment and its results are being run here (yet) within the established scientific rigor you hold so dear, and you can now go back asleep, knowing reality as you know it remains intact. All is well in the world.

If, however, you want truly want to understand objective reality and are willing to let go of your comfort of subjective reality, make the investment and read what has been offered to you and see how far the rabbit hole goes. The material is offered for you and anyone else to consider and either take or leave. And if, after an honest review of the material, you find yourself so inclined, continue with this forum to further the research or start your own forum and discuss your opinions.

Gonzo
 
Patience said:
I imagine we would do a rigorous experiment on superluminal communication (the proposed mode of communication with the C's) if we could, but I think we do not yet know how to do this. Ark has made a mathematical theory on superluminal communication that was published in a peer reviewed journal (not that there aren't problems with peer review but that is a whole other can of worms). I am not skilled enough to follow the math myself, and math does not necessarily describe reality. Assuming that he was rigorous in his work (and knowing Ark, he was; I simply can not check it myself), then a logically coherent, mathematical picture of how superluminal communication could work does exist.

Well, do not worry. My "theory of kairons" is probably wrong. It is too primitive. It is just one step. Then there will be next step, then another .... These steps will either lead somewhere or not. As I wrote in the previous post science is a game. Science is also similar to detective inquiries. A good detective has some "feeling" - he follows his nose, and sometimes he will be able to uncover the crime that other DCIs could not do. I see something in the channeling, I have some "feeling" about it (not about "all channeling", but about "some channeling"), I follow my nose. My own hypothesis about it is not yet fully formulated, it is vague. There are many theories about paranormal, but I am not satisfied with any of them. A new theory is needed, but it does not exist yet. Therefore there are no clear hypotheses that can be tested. We are just at a "Playing with the phenomena" and "playing with alternative theories" stage. I consider it being exciting.
 
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