Narcissism vs psychopathy

[striveforselflessness]

But lying - no, I would not recommend it, because that, imho, may make you a psychopath. If you choose an easy way once, it will be even easier next time, and after a while, you may not be able to tell the truth for the fear that anybody can be a psychopath or a narcissist or whatever, and thus create this unnecessary fence around yourself.

I want to add for clarity's sake that lying, like anything else can be taken to an extreme, and you are certainly right about that.

 

[obyvatel]

Lying as "intentional insincerity" is an idea of the Work. However, I would be very discriminate about lying, as lying is a dangerous path to follow. Telling half-truths is better than lying. Just don't say anything, or say only what wouldn't harm you. That's a great way to develop intellectual flexibility, by the way. But lying - no, I would not recommend it, because that, imho, may make you a psychopath. If you choose an easy way once, it will be even easier next time, and after a while, you may not be able to tell the truth for the fear that anybody can be a psychopath or a narcissist or whatever, and thus create this unnecessary fence around yourself.

Telling "half-truth" is more commonly referred to as "lying by omission".

Another way to look at the situation in the specific context is to consider "what is true" and "what is helpful". What is "helpful" depends on what is the "aim" in that context.

Yes, we lie often unconsciously. We also tend to lie in self-serving ways. Seeing this in oneself is a precondition for any serious work. Lying in service of an aim can be an useful tool in the 4th Way Work. But as it is with tools, it has to be wielded wisely.

[quote author=arpaxad]
But lying - no, I would not recommend it, because that, imho, may make you a psychopath.
[/quote]

No. Habitual lying out of fear, which is what you seem to be referring to, does not make one a psychopath, as the term is understood in psychology. It could make one neurotic and fearful.

 

[arpaxad]

If you choose an easy way once, it will be even easier next time, and after a while, you may not be able to tell the truth for the fear that anybody can be a psychopath or a narcissist or whatever, and thus create this unnecessary fence around yourself.

I have, personally, found boundaries of this sort essential. It is not necessary to tell everyone everything - I believe Confucius said this. It is, in fact, more considerate to allow others to tread their own path, and forcing ideas on them can have repercussions that are difficult to handle. The Narcissistic Family was mentioned in this thread and can help to grasp this if needed. An easy read.

There is an example on the cassiopaea website of hiding someone from a Nazi. Is it then good to tell the truth about the whereabouts of the hunted person?

In any case lies "just happen" all the time, often when we identify with a little i, identify with a complex, or wish to present ourselves a certain way. To observe it is what is essential, so we do not lie to ourselves - and this already is a statement, if one has external consideration as an aim.

This is a useful thread, imho, and I would like to return to it.

I believe that whatever is meant in the System by "intentional insincerity," telling half-truths (I don't agree that it is the same as lying, even "by omission") fits the concept perfectly.

FWIW, Hinduism and other spiritual systems have put a great emphasis on lying vs. speaking the truth. It is said that if one never lies, in time, even if one accidentally lies, these words will come true.

In another place, it is said that a sign of a highly spiritually developed individual is that he never lies, even in jest.

If one decides to lie, it is ALWAYS the case, imho, that it is due to fear. And fear is never a good adviser, even in the situations where it has its place.

As for the example with the Nazis, I have thought about this idea as a possible example where lying may be best. However, for one thing, it is an extreme situation, and extreme situations should never be taken as a typical illustration of any concept.
Still, I believe, that if a person is truly spiritually developed, s/he will either not get into this situation, or, if s/he does, will have led a lifestyle that will make it unnecessary for him/her to lie. In certain cases, "brutal honesty" is ultimately a better choice than lying.

 

[Buddy]

As for the example with the Nazis, I have thought about this idea as a possible example where lying may be best. However, for one thing, it is an extreme situation, and extreme situations should never be taken as a typical illustration of any concept.

You're right, because that example doesn't represent the typical case. But that's not an argument against using it as an example in a conversation about lying or not as an absolute principle. Offered up in the right context, it would be less an example about the virtue of pure honesty, and more about the value of a human life, which you seem to understand. Good on you.

Still, I believe, that if a person is truly spiritually developed, s/he will either not get into this situation, or, if s/he does, will have led a lifestyle that will make it unnecessary for him/her to lie. In certain cases, "brutal honesty" is ultimately a better choice than lying.

Brutal honesty is sometimes valuable at some times, even in situations when another would prefer a softer approach. It depends on what you're fighting and what you're willing to give up. You have to do your own risk assessment and be responsible for the outcome, but these kinds of situations are most often found in ordinary business and sometimes close personal relationships where the stakes are higher than just (maybe temporarily) being perceived as heartless and cruel by using brutal honesty.

There's another way to keep from being put in that Nazi situation too, BTW. Let everyone know in uncertain terms that you do not lie. You are brutally honest on principal and will always be brutally honest no matter what, so unless they're being hunted by Nazis don't even bother to come see you or let you know where they are. You then have the personal burden to stick with that principle through thick and thin and everything that might come up that you hadn't thought of ahead of time before you made that declaration. You know that ordinary people normally don't expect that kind of behavior and don't want that, so maybe they deserve advance warning so that they can decide if they want to have anything to do with you. I think that's only fair, but these are just my opinions. I figured it might be useful for somebody while they're waiting on that spiritual development which might not even come without having lived through the experiment for the experience which grows us. I may have missed the mark here a bit, also, so apologies if I went way off. Pretty tired rght now and am off to bed.

 

[striveforselflessness]

As for the example with the Nazis, I have thought about this idea as a possible example where lying may be best. However, for one thing, it is an extreme situation, and extreme situations should never be taken as a typical illustration of any concept.

That sounds fair enough to me. I was thinking it may help to understand some ways of dealing with certain extreme narcissistic types. But nonetheless lying is not good in itself. To me, not necessarily "bad" in itself either, as that depends on what is helpful or what is the goal as mentioned. It is unfortunate that it makes certain things easier - better fortune would mean a world absent of these types. The example of strict truth-telling may be a better way, for some, to establish boundaries or to establish how a relationship is going to work. That takes will and persistent effort.

If one decides to lie, it is ALWAYS the case, imho, that it is due to fear. And fear is never a good adviser, even in the situations where it has its place.

Fear is a "compelling emotion," a signal to try and change the situation because more protection is needed, or some other change is needed. We are adapted to feel such negative emotions because they tell us what isn't good for us; however you're right in that we may use such emotions in ways that should not apply. That is easy to do, it probably happens everyday with me for one. So fear could have us lie, or it could have us make a stand for ourselves, or, I believe it is possible, it could have us use the former to accomplish the latter. More often, though, it happens the other way around, and we just lie mechanically.

Hope that made some sort of sense.