Narcissistic mother, will it ever end?

[lilyalic]

My Mother has always been narcissist:

Guilt-Driven Control: "I've given my life for you. I've sacrificed it all." This method of control creates a feeling of obligation in children; that they "owe" their Narcissistic Parents and must behave in a certain way to make their parents happy.

She continuously reminds me (especially when we've rowed) that she has supported me thoroughly for 18 years (what she does not realise is that most of this was for her benefit, because she has never had much of a social life (not many friends) and because my Father used to violently abuse her, she lost all trust in men completely.

Codependent Control: "I need you. I can't live without you." This prevents children of Narcissistic Parents from having any autonomy, from living their own lives.

Furthermore, (because I have now moved out to study at University, she rings me often crying, explaining she misses me, needs me)

My Mother is a ...Engulfing Parent: are Narcissistic Parents who see no boundaries between themselves and their children. Children are seen as extension of the parent - not as another person. For babies and toddlers, this is okay - small children don't often see themselves as separate from their parents anyway.
An engulfing parent uses tactics like Parentification (is the expectation that a child must care for his/her parent, siblings, and household as a surrogate parent. This causes the child to lose out on any type of normal childhood) , Infantilization (andusing brainwashing tactics to ensure a child stays young and dependent upon the Narcissistic Parent.) to keep the child close. This type of narcissistic parent will ignore all boundaries as a child ages, seeing no problem asking overly personal questions, reading the child's emails and personal stories.

She has read my messages many times over, so there is no privacy in our relationship (However, now I've moved out I'm managing to keep a lot from her!)

I understand that she will never change, and this is extremely upsetting. All I want to know is how I stop my program of "feeling sorry for her" and where do I start putting a halt to finding abusive relationships or other narcissists (I have found someone, but do not want this problem to arise in the future)

 

[Buddy]

All I want to know is how I stop my program of "feeling sorry for her"

fMRI and other neuroscience studies show that we use the same neural circuits for thinking about others as we do when we think about ourselves. In terms of 'roles', or our relationships to others, that makes sense because there is no "self-role" without an "other-role" and vice-versa. In addition, the thinking center, in Gurdjieff's analogy, is capable of 'feelings' that don't necessarily come directly from the emotional center or emotional cognition, so we sometimes benefit by pondering this:

In the conceptual realm, when we start thinking of someone and start 'feeling sorry for...', how do we know exactly who or what this feeling is directly associated with? Sure, we think we're feeling sorry for the other, but we might just be "feeling sorrow" period. Sorrow for lost childhood, sorrow for seeing an adult in such dependent condition, sorrow for ourselves at the present moment, or sorrow for...what...something else? Something we can't find the words for? Sometimes it's hard to tell without some self-analysis of some sort.

When I get that way, it's sometimes helpful to redirect all this into a writing exercise to try and bring it all out into the open with attending associations that may not be currently visible.

...where do I start putting a halt to finding abusive relationships or other narcissists (I have found someone, but do not want this problem to arise in the future)...

It will help a lot to learn as much about the psychology material as you can and compare with all you know, think and can recollect from your own personal life history - including patterns of behaviors and what they may indicate as residing in your psyche or whatever.

With regards to romantic relationships, simply speaking, some people tend to focus on problems that exist once a relationship starts going bad and then draw faulty conclusions about causes. Generally, we fail to realize that problems that eventually develop in relationships are already coded in from the start and since we didn't understand the significance of that then, we tend to fail to see problem dynamics for what they are - two-way streets that require just as much participation from us as from them. Getting to know ourselves better helps to understand others better and helps to predict possible problem areas ahead of time - at least, maybe in general terms.

So, the best 'halt' might be found in self-knowledge which automatically benefits us by helping us to understand 'the other'.

 

[Buddy]

I forgot to add:

Since you say you've found someone, I imagine the answer you were looking for is something a bit more immediately applicable. There is a method for dealing with people that addresses and attempts to solve the age-old problem of not knowing how to successfully handle situations when emotions run high and there is something valuable (like the relationship) at stake. You might find this thread on Crucial Conversations helpful.

 

[lilyalic]

Thanks Buddy! that has opened my eyes a little more, I think it is myself feeling sorrow.
I kind of see my Mother from a different perspective, for example in a fugue state, I go "somewhere else". I should stop doing that!

"The focus is on how we think about problem situations and what we do to prepare for them. As we work on ourselves, watch for problems, examine our own thought processes, discover our own styles, and then catch problems before they get out of hand, everyone benefits. As you read on, you will learn how to create conditions in yourself and others that make dialogue the path of least resistance ."

This is really helpful, but we can recognise these programmes, and they can seep back into our mind, we can recognise that too, it's a viscous cycle!

 

[Buddy]

Yes, indeedy! :)

 

[ggen]

Hi lilyalic. Welcome to the forum! :)

If you haven't already, check out the cognitive sciences threads. There's endless articles and conversations that will assist you on your journey to finding and growing the Real You. I too have a mother who for much of my childhood relied solely on me. She was ill and I was the caretaker in every way imaginable. Once away from her demands I had no idea who I was or what to do. It's taken some eye opening and painful processing but I'm doing much better. Everyday brings about a new experience where I can let the parent interject run my thoughts and behaviors or I can stop and observe those thoughts as hers and not mine.

The books 'Trapped in the Mirror', 'Unholy Hungers', and 'The Narcissist Family' helped me the most when it came to the effects of narcissism and how to recover and become a whole person. 'Strangers to Ourselves', 'Blink', and 'The Myth of Sanity' we're also useful in my 'learning and recovery'.

It sounds like a ton of reading, and it is a fair amount, but it's the best time and money I've spent. I've begun to get my Life under some sort of control and make decisions for my destiny. (In my opinion, the books are formatted well and easy to read. Shouldn't' take too awfully long.)

Thank you for sharing and now let the healing begin!

 

[Laura]

Yes, the books we have studied about narcissism are a big help, especially "The Narcissistic Family", "Unholy Hungers", and "Trapped in the Mirror." You really can't get this kind of material on the net though we quote a lot of these books here on the forum when appropriate.

It may be possible for you to re-draw the boundaries and have a reasonable relationship with your mother later, or not; so get educated.

 

[obyvatel]

Hi lilyalic,
"Narcissistic Family" has a chapter on setting boundaries.

[quote author=Narcissistic Family]
The ability to set personal boundaries has long been recognized as an essential component of healthy functioning.' Boundaries have to do with ego differentiation - the old "yours, mine, and ours" concept. What is it that appropriately belongs to you, or to me, and what is it that we share? A person with good ego boundaries can make judgments about his or her appropriate accessibility to others (physically, emotionally, and mentally). He or she can say yes or no to all manner of things with relative comfort in the appropriateness of his or her judgments.
[/quote]

To get there as adults, we need to address some automatic thoughts and habits that get formed as a consequence of our childhood environment.

We need to identify what is our problem and what is not our problem. If the problem belongs to someone else, we have a choice of saying "no" and do not need to jump in everytime we are called. In this context, you are not responsible for your father's behavior which you think has made your mother lonely. She has her life and her lessons to learn. It is not in your control to make your mother happy no matter what you do. So when you say "no" to codependency, you are acting in favor of your destiny, not against her.

The Pressmans give a funny example

[quote author=Narcissistic Family]
During therapy sessions, I usually take process notes in stenographic notebooks. When patients are having difficulty grasping the concepts of setting boundaries and responsibility/control, I hold out the notebook and say, "Take this." They are surprised by the command, but they always take the notebook. I sit back, cross my arms, and wait. After the patient has sat there looking puzzled for a few seconds, I ask them why they wanted the notebook. Of course, they can not come up with an answer right away (since it is not a legitimate question), but eventually they will say something to the effect that they did not want the notebook, but I told them to take it, so they did. I ask, "What are you going to do with the notebook?" (By now they are starting to feel a little uncomfortable, wondering if their therapist is, as we say in Rhode Island, "one clamcake short of a dozen.") They stammer, and they exhibit emotions ranging from embarrassment to confusion to irritation to anger. Then I ask them, "Do you want the notebook?" By now, of course, they wish they had never seen the notebook-or me. After eliciting various protestations about the notebook, I ask, "Would you like to give the notebook back to me?" Needless to say, they can not wait to get rid of it.

I explain that the notebook represents responsibility, that there are all kinds of options that are available when someone asks you to "take the notebook."
......................................
Some statements patients have devised are as follows:
• I don't want to
• It's not a good time for me
• I'm cutting back on notebook taking
• I gave up taking notebooks for Lent
My personal favorite, which I often teach to survivors, is "I think not, but thank you for asking"-which is probably the quintessential refusal statement.
[/quote]

Another thing that holds us back from saying no is a "all or nothing" attitude. We feel that it will be the end of the relationship if we say no. We cannot control how the other person is going to take a "no". We can only control how we present our views in a respectful manner - which has to do with what the Pressmans call RAC - respectful adult communication. RAC goes like "I feel .......I want ....."

[quote author=Narcissistic Family]
Expressing Feelings
" I feel ..... I want"

Once individuals are able to (1) recognize that they have feelings and (2) label their feelings, they are then able to learn to express their feelings appropriately - the "I feel" part. When they are then able to accept (3) that they have a right to experience those feelings and (4) that their feelings are important, it becomes easier for them to verbalize their expectations to other people - the "I want" part. And as they quickly experience, once they are able to express the "I feel", it is often unnecessary to spell out the "I want". Much of the time, the most important thing is to be able to have feelings heard.

There are skills to be learned for the expression of feelings however. There is a list of "bad things" that people often say when they are experiencing strong emotions and having difficulty in expressing them. While these behaviors (name-calling, "you" references, "always/never" statements, gunnysacking, making historical references etc) work well to

escalate emotions,
hurt feelings,
vent spleens,
induce guilt and shame,
produce defensiveness,
encourage counterattacks and
preclude the possibility of problem solving.

They do not work well to communicate feelings and preferences in a way that they can be heard by the other person. Individuals who are talked to by someone using any of the negative techniques listed above do not feel valued or respected; they feel attacked. Humans don't listen very well when they are being attacked, because they are preparing a defensive counterattack. This is not a good recipe for helpful, problem-solving oriented communication. For instance, individuals will respond quite differently to "You always interrupt me! You're so inconsiderate!" than to "I feel hurt and angry when you interrupt me; I feel like my opinion doesn't matter. I feel stupid".

Conversely, humans do listen to statements describing feelings. Those statements are interesting, descriptive and non-threatening - they describe the speaker, not the listener. They are respectful to both parties, and they stand an excellent chance of being heard. There is no defense to prepare, because there is no attack to defend against. "I feel .... I want" is respectful adult communication (RAC) at its best.
[/quote]

Regarding boundary setting, it involves saying something to the effect

[quote author=Narcissistic Family]
"I'd like to be able to meet your needs, but I can't. In this case our needs are in conflict, and I have to attend to mine". It is important to understand that while it is a difficult skill to acquire, it is vital for our mental health and positive self-image that we learn to be advocates of ourselves. Otherwise we end up in meeting other people's needs at the expense of our own. If we are further able to communicate our message in a respectful and adult way (RAC), people will be able to hear our message clearly without being threatened or devalued by it.
[/quote]

The Crucial Conversation link provided by Buddy earlier has some more details and embellishment on this basic theme about communication skills.

 

[lilyalic]

Yes I've just finished reading "The myth of Sanity" and that really brought something new into my life!
I have read parts of "Trapped in the Mirror" but as for now, I'm reading something else (I don't like reading 2 books at the same time, I think one needs my sole attention :D )

In this context, you are not responsible for your father's behavior which you think has made your mother lonely. She has her life and her lessons to learn. It is not in your control to make your mother happy no matter what you do. So when you say "no" to codependency, you are acting in favor of your destiny, not against her.

Thankyou so much for that!
I will be ordering "The Narcissistic Family" soon

 

[lilyalic]

To add to that, I learnt that (From "The myth of sanity") I have endured many Dissociated ego states and many 'fugue' states due to my childhood.
Noticing these programmes has helped a lot!

 

[spiritheart67]

"Will it ever end?" To me the answer is a yes and no. No, there is no end to her narcissism or the associated behavior. As far as it being a major part of your life, emotional state, choices and path in life, Yes (at least from my personal experience) there can be something of an end to that seemingly endless ongoing pain and distressed she brings into your life. It will take time and a lot of introspection and self-education/awareness, as well as possibly some counseling or psychological support, but freedom, mental wellness and general happiness with yourself and your life is possible. I am a child and product of a Mother with extreme Narcissistic Personality Disorder coupled with some other considerable psychological disorders. I was raised as an only child of a single parent under these conditions and was subject to severe psychological, mental, emotional and sexual abuse at her hands in a environment of almost total isolation for 17-19 years and I have not only survived but am completely healthy and well adjusted in all these areas at my current age of 45.

The fact is, I've reached a place where I can say with true honesty that I forgive her and am grateful, not to her for what she did in raising me, but in many ways for the experiences that I had because of her "disorder" that have made me what I am today. Looking at what strengths the abuse & trauma created within me and how those things have shaped my choices and thus my life is the key to what has saved and redeemed me from these things. It goes without saying that those things that happen to us as children of Narcisstic parents do have a long lasting affect that has impacted & imprinted us for life. The point is that with proper perspective and awareness what is imprinted and how we are impacted is OUR CHOICE; how we survive and go forward in life is determined by what we choose to make of those experiences.

Here is some of what I've found to be personally true for me, it's different for everyone I'm sure, depending on your path and purpose in life:
I was conditioned from childhood to not only be subjugated (to make submissive or subservient; enslave) by another while at the same time training myself to subjugate (to bring under complete control or subjection; conquer; master.) my will in order to survive, without ever truly submitting or relinquishing it. This has been invaluable to me in mastering a very difficult and extensive spiritual path throughout my life, to a degree and level that would have been impossible without this 'training'. This subjugation without submission formed, instilled & burned a tenacious, intractable will of steel at the core of my being and the knowledge that there is NOTHING that I cannot do or overcome when I set my mind to it.

The Guilt-Driven & Codependent Control and all the other mental/emotional games played educated me on emotional manipulation, dependence and independence. These things taught me:
How to recognize it in others and not using it on others showed me the kind of person I truly am. Instead I try to understand the way in which others think, their perspectives and how to present information to them in a way that will make sense and be of the most service to them.
How to find a balance between mutual dependence in a supportive relationship and maintaining an healthy degree of personal independence and individuality.

Being raised without Empathy, any sense of personal boundaries, privacy or separateness, never being good enough, always discounted and without praise or encouragement all contributed to having no 'Sense of Self' and knowledge of who I am. I had no idea how to ask for what is important & appropriate for me or set aside what I needed. I chose to find the gifts in this and turn it to positive.
Many people have so many needs, desires and self-expectations they often do not know what they want and struggle to find a direction in their lives. I now know exactly who & what I am, what matters most to me & where I want to spend my life and my time. Rather than a confusion of possibilites to work through, I had a blank slate to create myself and my life upon and it filled me with a certainty and clarity of path and purpose that many do not find themselves blessed with.
In addition, being raised in this 'emotionally absent' environment instilled me with an unusual sense of rational, analytical, logical reasoning & thought as well as a calm emotional equilibrium. This causes me to be naturally calm in times of crisis, stressful or emotional situations and when important decisions must be made.

These are just some of the ways in which I've taken the things that happened to me and turned them into my most powerful strengths, something which you can choose to learn and do yourself.

It Ends when you understand and see it for what it was and is and then create what you want it to be and mean for you, in your life. People only have the power over us that we give to them. If you leave her home, or the room or the conversation and it's over for her, but you are still carrying it with you, agonizing over it and feeling only the pain, without looking for something positive that you can take from it for yourself, she will continue to have the control over you and your life. When you make it yours, taking what you want from it and leaving behind what doesn't serve you, It Ends.

Those Things That Happen To Us As Children Are What We Either Become or Overcome.
Best of Luck
Namaste

 

[Buddy]

When you make it yours, taking what you want from it and leaving behind what doesn't serve you, It Ends.

.
.

I've always been under the mind-set that when teens or adults finally leave home, they should take from their childhood what was valuable and leave the rest behind.

Hmmm, seems like a consensus may be building. :)

 

[Zadius Sky]

Hi SpiritHeart67, I see that this is your first post, so I want to welcome you to the Forum.

We suggest that new forum members introduce themselves in the Newbies section. Nothing personal, just a little bit about yourself and how you found the forum. If you are unsure of what to write, take a look at how others on the board have done it. :)

 

[lilyalic]

I was raised as an only child of a single parent under these conditions and was subject to severe psychological, mental, emotional and sexual abuse at her hands in a environment of almost total isolation for 17-19 years and I have not only survived but am completely healthy and well adjusted in all these areas at my current age of 45.

My situation was rather the same, no siblings with single parent. I'm glad to hear you feel you're completely healthy and well adjusted. :)

Looking at what strengths the abuse & trauma created within me and how those things have shaped my choices and thus my life is the key to what has saved and redeemed me from these things. It goes without saying that those things that happen to us as children of Narcisstic parents do have a long lasting affect that has impacted & imprinted us for life. The point is that with proper perspective and awareness what is imprinted and how we are impacted is OUR CHOICE; how we survive and go forward in life is determined by what we choose to make of those experiences.

Have you read " Trapped in the Mirror " by Elan Golomb? Those "things" that have a long lasting affect from being brought up by a narcissist are some what of our parent's negative introject. The part of us that says we're worthless, the "I" that stops us from doing the things we really want, is itself the negative introject of the parent inside of us. All we ever knew was the harmful love from the narcissistic parent.

Being raised without Empathy, any sense of personal boundaries, privacy or separateness, never being good enough, always discounted and without praise or encouragement all contributed to having no 'Sense of Self' and knowledge of who I am. I had no idea how to ask for what is important & appropriate for me or set aside what I needed. I chose to find the gifts in this and turn it to positive.
Many people have so many needs, desires and self-expectations they often do not know what they want and struggle to find a direction in their lives. I now know exactly who & what I am, what matters most to me & where I want to spend my life and my time. Rather than a confusion of possibilites to work through, I had a blank slate to create myself and my life upon and it filled me with a certainty and clarity of path and purpose that many do not find themselves blessed with.
In addition, being raised in this 'emotionally absent' environment instilled me with an unusual sense of rational, analytical, logical reasoning & thought as well as a calm emotional equilibrium. This causes me to be naturally calm in times of crisis, stressful or emotional situations and when important decisions must be made.

Ofcourse you had no idea what you wanted, the parent always portrayed what they wanted through us. It's a wonderful story that you've come away so positive and 'refurbished'. Do you really know who and what you are? do we ever fully know?
Your post was very helpful, and it helped to look back on how far I've come

Thank you very much.

 

[spiritheart67]

"Do you really know who and what you are? do we ever fully know?"


What I meant by this is that I was given the gift and opportunity to discover what is truly important and matters most to me and in my life. That being said, I also have found that knowing yourself does not and should never preclude constantly growing, learning about yourself and becoming more than the person you have been to date. This has especially been the case for me recently, as I've been reaching new and ever deepening levels of personal & emotional self-knowledge and understanding. I believe a solid base of center & self is fundamental to this process. So yes I think you can truly know yourself with a knowledge that becomes fuller over time. :) Thank you for your comments and encouragement!

Edit: Fixed font for first line