Nature of Debates!

[luke wilson]

Do you think it's okay to use someone? The reason I'm asking you is in the interest of giving you the opportunity to really look at what may be behind this, not as a judgement.

Before I answer, I have noticed that when I am asked a question about something I said that might be abit probing, there is always a remark saying, 'not as a judgement' or 'I am not trying to be offensive.' Wow, quite considerate. I dont know what to think of it, except thanks - consideration for my feelings especially from other people is not something I experience alot. Maybe I should go see a psychologist or something :D

I am going to try and be as honest as I can be truth seeker. On the question of using someone I think it depends on the situation. I cannot say that I havent really used other people. Why have I used people to flash out my ego? well that wasnt my primary intention, sometimes in my life, for one reason or another people have been harsh to be, tried to hurt my feelings with what they say so I figured I could either let this get me down or I could take advantage of it. The reason people tend to be harsh or see me as an easy target is because I dont fight back. I have been told to stand up for myself many times but in all honesty I cannot or dont know how to(I have no desire to play such games with people, I am not going to satisfy them by reacting to them) - when I was really young I used to get angry as a reaction to this but I soon realized anger rarely ever solves anything( except get you alot of attention) so nowadays I rarely get angry and if I do I do not externalise it. Yes, I have also noticed that to some people this is perceived as a weakness that can be easily taken advantage off. So yes, in this situation I merely use other people because they chose to attack me first. But atleast nowadays I meet less and less people who are of this nature - people playing petty social games where they are looking to gain social points at your expense, I admit that when I sometimes see someone who essentially used me in this way, when the tables are reversed I happily do the same(in a subtle way) just to get even sometimes.

Perhaps another way to view it is that you perceive they are judging you. Do you judge yourself?

Uhmm, do I judge myself? Yes I judge myself. Why do I judge myself? Hmm well mainly because I dont know myself, who really knows themselves, I mean really really know themselves??? I dont know maybe it is a psychological thing. I judge myself because essentially I dont feel in control of my life and the only way to know why is by personal judgement. To think maybe it is because of this and that reason and maybe it is something to do with my nature, maybe something about my nature essentially makes me not as good as other people in driving life to a chosen destination.

Sometimes in a social situation I can perceive I am being judged but I think this is what is happening in an objective way, not in a subjective way - that the person is actually judging me or that the way they are acting towards me is based on some judgement they cast upon me or something they heard from other people. Why? Because I can just feel it, see it in there eyes, notice it in there behaviour towards me. I dont particularly let it affect me, I act normal but I try and understand why I was judged and the reason I come up with is people try and measure you, put you on a scale against someother pre-conceived concept in there mind and watch to see how you perform. If you perform well, they treat you in a certain way, if you fail they treat you in a different way. It is sad that life is lived this way. Really sad. Do i do the same to other people?? Uhmm I can only think of one particular scale I put people on and that is 'are you going to be destructive element in my life i.e am I just a tool you are using for some gain somewhere down the line?.' I find that I have to have really good anticipation skills because anticipation helps you know of oncoming trouble before hand and thus one can be prepared or brace themselves, but anticipation has to be based on something and I suppose one thing it is based on is subtle judgements you make here and there...

 

[truth seeker]

Before I answer, I have noticed that when I am asked a question about something I said that might be abit probing, there is always a remark saying, 'not as a judgement' or 'I am not trying to be offensive.' Wow, quite considerate. I dont know what to think of it, except thanks - consideration for my feelings especially from other people is not something I experience alot. Maybe I should go see a psychologist or something :D

No problem! Using this method of communication is difficult because we can't see body language or hear inflections. We're also limited in that we don't exactly write the way we speak, so it make it easier and more pleasant for all concerned to try and explain our thoughts behind our writing. :)

I am going to try and be as honest as I can be truth seeker. On the question of using someone I think it depends on the situation. I cannot say that I havent really used other people. Why have I used people to flash out my ego? well that wasnt my primary intention, sometimes in my life, for one reason or another people have been harsh to be, tried to hurt my feelings with what they say so I figured I could either let this get me down or I could take advantage of it. The reason people tend to be harsh or see me as an easy target is because I dont fight back. I have been told to stand up for myself many times but in all honesty I cannot or dont know how to(I have no desire to play such games with people, I am not going to satisfy them by reacting to them) - when I was really young I used to get angry as a reaction to this but I soon realized anger rarely ever solves anything( except get you alot of attention) so nowadays I rarely get angry and if I do I do not externalise it. Yes, I have also noticed that to some people this is perceived as a weakness that can be easily taken advantage off. So yes, in this situation I merely use other people because they chose to attack me first. But atleast nowadays I meet less and less people who are of this nature - people playing petty social games where they are looking to gain social points at your expense, I admit that when I sometimes see someone who essentially used me in this way, when the tables are reversed I happily do the same(in a subtle way) just to get even sometimes.

I'm just going to pose some questions regarding this paragraph above for you to think about. You don't need to answer them unless you want to. When you were growing up, were you bullied/abused (either by a family member or friend/acquaintance)? Growing up, were you made to feel that you couldn't trust others?

Uhmm, do I judge myself? Yes I judge myself. Why do I judge myself? Hmm well mainly because I dont know myself, who really knows themselves, I mean really really know themselves??? I dont know maybe it is a psychological thing. I judge myself because essentially I dont feel in control of my life and the only way to know why is by personal judgement. To think maybe it is because of this and that reason and maybe it is something to do with my nature, maybe something about my nature essentially makes me not as good as other people in driving life to a chosen destination.

If you don't know yourself, how do you know that you can trust yourself, trust your thoughts, trust your feelings and by extension, trust your judgements and perceptions?

Sometimes in a social situation I can perceive I am being judged but I think this is what is happening in an objective way, not in a subjective way - that the person is actually judging me or that the way they are acting towards me is based on some judgement they cast upon me or something they heard from other people.

Is it possible for you to give an example of this?

Do i do the same to other people?? Uhmm I can only think of one particular scale I put people on and that is 'are you going to be destructive element in my life i.e am I just a tool you are using for some gain somewhere down the line?.' I find that I have to have really good anticipation skills because anticipation helps you know of oncoming trouble before hand and thus one can be prepared or brace themselves, but anticipation has to be based on something and I suppose one thing it is based on is subtle judgements you make here and there...

Is it possible that perhaps your anticipation of being used is causing the reactions from others that you are trying to avoid?

 

[luke wilson]

I'm just going to pose some questions regarding this paragraph above for you to think about. You don't need to answer them unless you want to. When you were growing up, were you bullied/abused (either by a family member or friend/acquaintance)? Growing up, were you made to feel that you couldn't trust others?

I was bullied at school at various times during my schooling career. Some schools that I went to were very strict aswell. Trust is a delicate thing. My opinion of trust is that you are leaving yourself open to attack by the person you are trusting and more often than not, the person in which you have placed your trust on will indeed use this against you in one way or another. I only trust if I have no choice but to do so but I always expect to regret it later. I am being as honest as I can be.

If you don't know yourself, how do you know that you can trust yourself, trust your thoughts, trust your feelings and by extension, trust your judgements and perceptions?

Ha, this is a very interesting question. I wouldnt say I dont know myself. I would just say that I dont know myself fully. Maybe this is where elements of the work come in, to try and fix ones machine so you can see yourself objectively rather than subjectively. The only things that can help me maneuver through the maze of life or have helped me so far are my thoughts and feelings. I have learnt to trust them over the years. Somebody may ask, maybe trusting your thoughts and feelings in the first place is what made you experience this things and such, well I'd answer back and say, I havent said that my thoughts and feelings are right or accurate or a good instrument to use but I would say that they are mine and they are the only thing I have to work with. If they lead me astray then that is where I have to go to learn the lessons I need to learn so I can improve them and better equip myself for the future. In this case I trust that God(If I am allowed to use that word) gave me what I needed to be able to handle the situations I'd meet in this life, that is that my thoughts and feelings are accurate or more presicely are adequate enough. Infact come to think of it, God(whatever whoever he maybe, not that God in the Bible - that one who is hell bent on causing destruction), is pretty much the only person/being/thing that has my undivided trust, maybe my parents aswell eventhough sometimes this trust is severely tested but it always turns out to be because I am just stubborn and that they themselves are not perfect but they however try there best to be the best they can be. I dont think even God is the right word to use, because my definition of a God is something that needs to be worshipped, like it needs peoples approval like somekind of energy source inorder to survive, the 'God' for this purpose i'll call it the universe doesnt need anyones worship. That is how I see it.

Is it possible that perhaps your anticipation of being used is causing the reactions from others that you are trying to avoid?

I dont have a fear of being used. I do think that I am used though. Used for this or that reason by different people. I dont know what came first though, the being used part or the anticipation part - I also dont know if it is just a recent phenomena or something that has been there all my life. I do however think that this is not just my imaginings because I have observed that in this life, in this world, people use each other alot and I would say it is one of the leading factors that governs social life - whether they acknowledge it or not is an entirely different matter. You can use someone for various reasons, for emotional comfort, for connections, for physical gratification, for social status, as an escape from ones reality etc etc. I have read around here quite alot that your experiences in your life are somekind of mirror or something to that effect. This is a concept that I have not been able to figure out or observe in reality mainly because it is hard to separate what is happening to how it makes you feel - what came 1st, the experience or the feeling?? what gave rise to the other??. Maybe you can point me in the right direction, somewhere where I could learn more about this concept. Can you imagine mastering such a concept if it does indeed hold in reality?? One can master there own reality, shape there experiences, gain almost absolute control of there life - no more being a slave to experiences or the world, you'll indeed become a rock, a master of your own destiny. Quite an incredible power to have at ones disposal. Is such a thing possible?? Ha, if it is, I can tell you that I havent met anyone at all who has achieved this, people might pretend to be masters of there own destiny but you look closely at them and you'll realize they are still slaves to the same rules we are all under. My ultimate aim in life is to gain my freedom - it is a concept I dont even understand and it is something that is almost unachievable but come rain or sunshine I wont give up in this endevour. That is the only goal I can pursue with the whole of my being. It is no longer about the perfect job, being a millionare, gaining social status or worse yet it isnt even about finding love. The only other worthwhile/meaningful goal in life. This journey has taken me many places and now I find myself here. This place is quite amazing almost unbelivable. It always amazes me how someone could come up or achieve such a beautiful thing like what Laura has achieved with this place. The people here aswell are slowly but surely helping me regain my trust in humanity aswell...

 

[luke wilson]

Sorry I forgot to answer this,

Sometimes in a social situation I can perceive I am being judged but I think this is what is happening in an objective way, not in a subjective way - that the person is actually judging me or that the way they are acting towards me is based on some judgement they cast upon me or something they heard from other people.

Is it possible for you to give an example of this?

Well, one particular experience in my life lead me to this conclusion. Before this, I was oblivious to this concept, I had heard about it but didnt know what it meant or how it would feel like. I had a recent new comer to my life and it has been very interesting to watch how they treat me evolve/change since i've known them. Now, how can how they treat me change when I have remained the same(or atleast not changed outwardly) - even if they might have changed during the course of our meeting why would I have to bear the full brunt of this change??? I think it changed because they had assumptions about me and since I didnt meet this assumptions, there behaviour towards me changed. It did not change entirely based on what they had observed but more on what they are hearing from other people, people whose assumption of me is not even accurate - why do I know there assumptions about me are not accurate, because I have instilled these very assumptions about me unto them because this are the very same people who'd call you a friend one minute and the very next minute proceed to bully you and act like such an act didnt even take place - how can some people be so oblivious to the amount of harm they can cause someone else and how can they take enjoyment out of causing such harm, it's quite astonishing really. Why am I using the word 'assumptions' here? Well it is because, how can these people claim to know who I am and set it in stone - like I cannot change who I am. What I simply expected was not to be judged and simply let our frendship evolve on our own terms but no, that isnt what happened. This particular experience just drove home the power of judgement and how it does take quite a skilled artisan to manage there public perception so as to avoid such judgements or be judged under a better light as I have come to discover it is impossible not being judged, even the Bible says God will judge you. He might be the only one who has the right to judge someone but that wont stop other people from attempting to practise this. Obviously in some cases it is good to have a judge, like for eg in law. I am not saying I dont judge other people but well it isnt pretty being judged and having someone take action against you based on this judgement especially when this action gives rise to negative emotions. These are double standards and maybe I deserve what I am getting from this individual. How can I judge other people and not expect to be judged, maybe I should learn not to judge people. But then again if that is impossible(not judging) how can I do it??

I also wonder, if I eradicated all my judgements of other people what would happen? Would my experiences change as a result? What about my experiences with this particular person, how would that change as a result of me simply not judging, it's not like they will start acting differently towards me or anything like that, atleast I dont see how this can happen. Hmm, maybe they wont change how they act but my perception of how they act will change based on me not judging anymore....??

 

[truth seeker]

First, I just wanted to thank you for your honesty. It's the only way that we can start to see situations objectively.

Trust is a delicate thing. My opinion of trust is that you are leaving yourself open to attack by the person you are trusting and more often than not, the person in which you have placed your trust on will indeed use this against you in one way or another. I only trust if I have no choice but to do so but I always expect to regret it later.

Very often when we don't have trust in others, what that usually points to is that we don't have trust in ourselves. We don't trust ourselves to be able to correctly discern between those who have our best interests at heart and those who would take advantage. So what can happen is that we build a wall of distrust towards everyone. Unfortunately, this tactic squanders the opportunity to not only strengthen our ability to discern but also keeps those who are worthwhile out. The ones that mostly get over the wall are those same people willing to put in the extra effort because they have an agenda. The ones who are really attempting to get to know you (because they really like you) will eventually give up because it's too difficult to get in. This is one place where your judgement of others is showing. It's your preconceived idea that you are "open to attack" that is allowing for the breach by predators.

This is how your life is mirroring you. Your expectation that you will regret trusting someone is being confirmed. It's a no win situation. If you encounter a predator, your mistrust is confirmed. If you encounter someone genuine, they will either make a mistake (as all humans do) which will disappoint you or they will give up. Both scenarios also confirm that they can't be trusted. So you have set both yourself and all others to fail. This is why you can't currently trust what you think with the way you think.

From here, one can either choose to continue the current pattern or learn lessons from the opportunity(ies) life is presenting. This is of course easier said than done! :)

I'm not sure if you've gotten around to some of the suggested reading yet. A good place to start is with what we refer to as "the big five". They will help you to start to understand the patterns you and everyone in the world have picked up out of the necessity to survive.

Until you can get the books, I think one (of many) good threads is this one.

If there's anything at all I wasn't clear on or that you have questions about, please don't hesitate to ask. :)

 

[luke wilson]

Very often when we don't have trust in others, what that usually points to is that we don't have trust in ourselves. We don't trust ourselves to be able to correctly discern between those who have our best interests at heart and those who would take advantage. So what can happen is that we build a wall of distrust towards everyone.

I have just realised that all my life, I have never actually ever trusted anyone. Not a single soul. I have never really had a friend that I trusted completely. I always had my guard up just incase. Omg, I think you are right. This is because I dont trust myself to correctly discern between those who have my best interest at heart and those who would just take advantage. This is frightening. Infact I dont think I trust myself at all. Atleast not completely.

This is one place where your judgement of others is showing.

Thanks for pointing this out to me. It is so glaringly obvious but I was completely blind to it.

This is how your life is mirroring you. Your expectation that you will regret trusting someone is being confirmed. It's a no win situation.

It is indeed a no win situation. You've just pointed out a monolith that stands right infront of me and has been there for quite sometime without me seeing it but now that I can kind of see it, I have to say it looks abit to big to overcome especially since I cant trust what I think with the way I think...

After reading this I am thinking that the way to overcome this or learn from these experiences is to just fully trust myself and my ability to discern which will lead to me trusting others.. But it is not like a switch I can just turn on and off at will. I can't trust myself, I am filled with such indecision, such conflicting thoughts/ideas/feelings that I dont know which to pick which to trust... I am completely at a loss with this dilemma.

From here, one can either choose to continue the current pattern or learn lessons from the opportunity(ies) life is presenting. This is of course easier said than done!

I think I am learning the lessons this experiences have to offer. Not all the lessons as I am still blind and cant notice some of them but I think I am learning the ones I do notice. My problem is now that I am aware of this particular issue, I know it now, like my mind is turned on to it but what I dont know is how to apply the lesson... Or is the point of the lesson just bringing your awareness to a particular issue, like to make you acknowledge and accept it but it is an entirely different matter on using it, like we are learning lessons here in 3D to use them later on? Not nessesarily here, in our current life??

 

[luke wilson]

I hit post without reviewing and editing my reply on the previous one - I think because of the shock from some of those revelations, the magnitude and implications of the whole thing is yet to fully sink in. I also forgot to say thank you. Today I have learnt something new about myself thanks to you. :)

 

[truth seeker]

Infact I dont think I trust myself at all. Atleast not completely.

It is frightening, but in my opinion, this is where the opening for the Work lies. This is the place where we begin to lay down the burden of our assumptions that the door to all possibilities open. Congrats! :)

Thanks for pointing this out to me. It is so glaringly obvious but I was completely blind to it.

Yes, this is the case for everyone which is why networking is necessary. Without it, it is impossible for anyone to see themselves objectively.

After reading this I am thinking that the way to overcome this or learn from these experiences is to just fully trust myself and my ability to discern which will lead to me trusting others.. But it is not like a switch I can just turn on and off at will. I can't trust myself, I am filled with such indecision, such conflicting thoughts/ideas/feelings that I dont know which to pick which to trust... I am completely at a loss with this dilemma.

Here is a link that will hopefully help to clarify where to go from here. If you have any questions, again, please don't hesitate.

Or is the point of the lesson just bringing your awareness to a particular issue, like to make you acknowledge and accept it but it is an entirely different matter on using it, like we are learning lessons here in 3D to use them later on? Not nessesarily here, in our current life??

It is to bring awareness to it so that we can attempt to put it into practice in the present. This is the work we do here. If not now, when? :)

edit: This thread may also be helpful.

 

[truth seeker]

Hi luke,

Just wanted to know how you are doing? I completely realize how devastating it can be when we start to realize that we are not who we thought ourselves to be. Whenever you get an opportunity, please chime in. :)

 

[henry]

Luke, truth seeker’s last link points to the text "The First Initiation" by Jeanne de Salzmann?

It is important that you hold onto that feeling that you can’t trust yourself. Mme de Salzmann’s text will help you put it into perspective. It can be an important moment in the Work if you deepen that realization and work with the network.

 

[luke wilson]

Just wanted to know how you are doing? I completely realize how devastating it can be when we start to realize that we are not who we thought ourselves to be. Whenever you get an opportunity, please chime in.

Sorry for the late reply. Uhmm I am doing fine, thanks for asking. :)

Just trying to catch up on reading on so many different fronts, both here and university work. Oh I tried clicking on the last link you posted truth seeker and it says an error occured " - thread appears to be either missing or off limits to me...

Uhmm I am actually glad to start realizing aspects of who I really am. It can be shocking at first but it is better than having a false image of oneself...

 

[truth seeker]

I'm glad to hear you are doing okay, luke. :)

I apologize for the link, at the time I posted it, the requirements for viewing that section of the forum were 10 posts. Over the last couple of days, it has been changed to 50. See this link for the explanation. The good news is your almost there. :)

 

[Jacques]

Just wanted to know how you are doing? I completely realize how devastating it can be when we start to realize that we are not who we thought ourselves to be. Whenever you get an opportunity, please chime in.

Sorry for the late reply. Uhmm I am doing fine, thanks for asking. :)

Just trying to catch up on reading on so many different fronts, both here and university work. Oh I tried clicking on the last link you posted truth seeker and it says an error occured " - thread appears to be either missing or off limits to me...Uhmm I am actually glad to start realizing aspects of who I really am. It can be shocking at first but it is better than having a false image of oneself...

Since you don't have access, here's the text of Mme de Salzmann


The 'First Initiation' written by Mme Jeanne de Salzmann:


You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! ...

You live exclusively according to "I like" or "I don't like," you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you-theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your "appreciation of yourself" blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further.

This test divides men into two kinds: the "wheat" and the "chaff." No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life.

The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

... If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures - talent, education, culture, genius-are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see - I see myself - by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your "I like" and "I don't like." Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying "sincerely" to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others - lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions - lies. Your teaching - lies. Your theories, your art- lies. Your social life, your family life - lies. And what you think of yourself - lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day.

You will see that you are different from what you think you are.

You will see that you are two.

One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

http://www.gurdjieff.org/salzmann3.htm

 

[luke wilson]

Thanks for pasting the essay Gandalf.

Am gonna completely deviate from the main topic of this thread and talk about that essay. I hope people dont mind.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others - lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions - lies. Your teaching - lies. Your theories, your art- lies. Your social life, your family life - lies. And what you think of yourself - lies also.

First time, I read this, I thought to myself "how can everything about myself be a lie?", "how is this possible?." I almost disagreed with what salzmann is saying because I just couldnt see it. But then I took acouple of minutes and actually thought about this and you know what 'I realized pretty much everything about myself is based on a lie.' My social life, family life, conventions etc etc - I have based all this things on a lie, I also know why or i think i do. I have always noticed atleast some of this lies as they were occuring, yet I still persisted - it is not necessarily lies in terms of words but in terms of the way I live, the way I interact with other people, maybe even the way I interact with myself even though I rarely see/notice this particular type. I persist because I know I cannot tell the truth, I cannot be truthful or rather I dont know how to be truthful. Why? Because I fear the truth(I fear what the truth will show me to be) and I have never tried basing my life on such a foundation before. So even if I kind of know everything is pretty much a lie, I dont know how to make it the oppossite because I have never done it before. Here again I use my judgements and mistrust to cement down this way of life. I think to myself, If I am truthful, if I try and rectify this particular nature of my life, then I will live on a completely different foundation of life, what happens if people judge me and dont like me then which offcourse they will because I dont trust anyone - I have been bullied after all during my childhood? What happens? Where can I run to? In short fear is what is stoping me. Fear and not knowing how to make the change. It is nice knowing everything is a lie, but when you overcome your fear of attempting to rectify this situation, how do you go about doing it??

I'll also put this out there, maybe it is safer living ones life this way as compared to the opposite?? Why base anything on truth when the whole world is one big lie??

That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Is there really another way of living life other than according to your likes and dislikes?? I mean, I try and do things I like and try and avoid things I dont like. How else can I go about living if it is not this way?? I really have no idea. Sometimes I find myself doing things I dont like, but more often than not, it is out of necessity not out of free choice. So even in this way, I act passively. I hope this makes sense.

You will see that you are two.

One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

I think I've caught glimpses of this other me. And again, what more is someone meant to do but to notice this other them?? What I have noticed about this other part is that yes, he is weak, he is like a little child, innocent - he needs protection from the big bad world; atleast that is my perception of it, not my experience. Then there is the other part that one uses everyday, the personality, the one that knows how to live in this world - the one that basically rules over a person. I am assuming in this example salzmann is talking about the essence?? My experience of it is that it defies logic, there have been certain moments in my life, when I have done things that have beggared my own belief. Like a new part of myself emerged from way deep within me and just did something driven by such force, such power but as soon as it came, it went - it is almost as if it is something that took over me, that almost had its own will, I didnt understand it, I couldnt control it - I was more like a passenger even though I was there observing watching, infact I didnt even know it was there lurking inside me, I still am not sure if it is there but one thing I do know is that I did not imagine it because this particular moments stood out for me, that is what they were, just moments. If I remember right, when it showed itself, my body reacted to it, my heart rate went up and I felt exhausted after and also i remember that one thing that differentiates it from my own personality is that it had no doubts, no indecision, it's like every part of it was united, everypart of it was one. I have tried looking for it, but it's no where to be seen - infact it has been years pushing on a decade now since it last decided to show itself and make this life more bearable. I say more bearable because whenever it showed itself, is when there was something standing in my way and it quickly proceeded to dispatch it out the way then disappear leaving me exhausted and tired - I hated the feeling i felt after, I felt like a slave to my own body. Is this what they call essence???

 

[luke wilson]

I am sorry but I have to post again and this time it'll probably be a rather long post. Thanks to this thread I discovered something new about myself. Also this essay "The 'First Initiation' written by Mme Jeanne de Salzmann" that I read acouple of hours ago made me think about the past and some of the things that I have had to re-live have been unpleasant. So much so that I dont know what to do with the feelings that are arising. It is almost like a can of worms has just been opened.

I'm just going to pose some questions regarding this paragraph above for you to think about. You don't need to answer them unless you want to. When you were growing up, were you bullied/abused (either by a family member or friend/acquaintance)? Growing up, were you made to feel that you couldn't trust others?

Right, I was asked this question before and I did not answer it fully, because somethings were hidden/buried so I didnt have to look at them. But now at this moment the only thing I am seeing are this things that I didnt want to see in the first place. Was I abused or bullied?? Hmm, well to be entirely honest, I dont know of a time when I havent been abused or bullied. I feel like the majority of my life has just been one big abuse. I was bullied pretty much during my whole schooling career and my dad was very very tough on me. This bullying did not come interms of physical abuse but mainly through words but I also got a good beating every now and again when I was young. I was made to feel insignificant, small, worthless. I felt alone, I felt like no one could even see the state I was in because no one did. I felt like there was no sanctuary anywhere in life, everywhere I turned, there lay more agony more attacks - yes that is the word it felt like a very consistent attack on me from every single possible front. It was desperate, surprisingly this experiences never really got me down, I was always optimistic by nature and it felt like a rather slow process of just getting me down to rock bottom. This happened when I was 17/18. I hit rock bottom. At this point everything was awful, life had become a nightmare. Depression had finally caught up with me. I was drowning in it and please do not judge me but, suicidal thoughts started to permiate my mind. I was in agony and I wanted out. I felt like I couldnt get any help and that no one even cared, no one seemed to care they only seemed to make it worse. So anyways at this point I knew I wanted out, no question about it, I had a date planned and everything. I had come to the conclusion that clearly the future wasnt going to get any better and it was best to just go away. So anyways, on the run up to my date it just became a matter of coming up with the courage to actually do it and this is where it all went down hill. I came up against one hell of a wall that no amount of suffering or pain could make me get over it to the other side. Basically I could not kill myself. As this time was really trying, I ran up to this wall acouple of times but try as I might I couldnt get beyond it.

So anyways, since I couldnt essentially do it. I had to find a way to live with it, to cure myself. And I think I have. I really have had to dig really deep but I think I have. I am not depressed and not a single suicidal thought in mind, not for a good 4-5yrs. Infact I would never kill myself. Right now, I also feel like I am in a place where I am almost immuned from depression. I should be depressed but I am not. I am over it. I can say this with confidence. I feel good with myself. Life surprisingly has also changed, it feels like I have been somewhat rejuvenated. The last 12-18 months have been quite astonishing really in terms of how I have learned to handle my emotions. It is like I have finally learnt to not have my emotions used as a weapon against me but rather a tool that I myself can use for my own benefits. I did all this by myself. All my friends even my parents have no idea about the place I was or that they were mainly responsible for it - I did not make myself feel bad, I was made to feel bad. Funny thing is none of them have changed but I have. Infact come to think of it, that is probably the longest and hardest lesson I have ever had to learn, how to deal with negative emotions, how to not let them be a destructive force within you and all this without any knowledge whatsoever. Now I see what the C's mean when they say knowledge or better yet awareness protects.

I just hope that I am not being set up for a fall because the last 12 months have probably been the best this particular century but weirdly enough it feels temporary, it feels like at any point the weather could turn and I am not entirely sure what my natural reactions will be. Infact I was led straight into a trap this year, one that has caused me great turmoil previously(years ago) but again I had no knowledge and I just went all in with the same old optimistic non-careful way I always do and when I was fully in, it was set off but no no I am actually quite surprised because I should be feeling really really really bad right now but I am not, I feel the weight of the emotions but it is not bad, that is not how I would describe it, it feels weird but atleast now I have some knowledge and awareness.


The reason I started re-running through this past experiences is because of these particular phrases: -

You will see that you are two.

One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

I will write down some of the times this 2nd part of myself has shown its face. It is not going to be pretty so please dont judge me. When I was between 11-14 I was being heavily bullied at school and some particular individuals took great enjoyment into making my life a living nightmare. As I didnt have it in my nature to fight back I always took the abuse. This happened for months. At home I felt under attack and at school I felt under attack. It wasnt pretty. Anyways, this incidents of bullying at school came to an end abruptly following physical confrontation. On one occassion the bully thought that he had abused me enough through words that he just wanted to now beat me up, the thing he didnt know and that I also didnt know is that there was a subtle part of me that saw this coming weeks before, I just knew this was coming and right before the incident it was like everything just stopped like the chit chatter in my mind, the emotions everything just went silent, then the person hit me and the next thing I knew was Boom some hidden part of me just emerged and it was game over. It was the weirdest strangest most therapeutic thing ever... Everything happened so fast. But the end result was that I wasnt bullied anymore by anyone. This same thing happened 2 other times during those years and it was always the same pattern, just before and the same result right at the end - the bullying came to a stop. Those are the only times I have ever fought in my life. Afterwards though, I felt like that feeling when you just unload all your baggage all your emotions. I felt like every single negative emotion I had locked up inside me was released, it felt bad and it actually made my body shake and tremble. It did not feel like a glorious I have just fought and won kind of thing.

Apart from these 3 incidents the only other time I have come across this other part was when I was facing the other great tyrant of my life, exams. I hate exams, I disliked them even more when I was young. And once, I was so terrified about this particular physics exam that I hadnt revised for. I knew nothing and I couldnt blag my way out of mathematical based questions that I had no idea about but during the exam something weird happened. Same pattern as before but I was able to answer everysingle question. I didnt know where the answers were coming from but all I can remember was that whilst I was doing the paper I was perspiring and my body was like trembling, thats the only way I can describe it. Come the results and guess who got almost full marks?? Yours truly.

The annoying thing about this other part, is that it doesnt show its face on demand. Just when it wants to and for the last God knows how many years it has been nowhere to be seen including when I was 17/18 - maybe it sent its friend, the wall. But well something else has showed its face since but I dont want to share just because I feel like I have already said way to much and now that I am reading about aliens in the Wave series I dont want to disclose everything about me just incase they have internet connection up there in 4D and wanna come poke around..... :D

In short Life has been a long weird rather painful journey... Where does it all go to?? Argh! I dont know, I just hope somewhere good.