NeuroFeedback and Electroencephalography

truth seeker

The Living Force
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I had my 5th and 6th sessions last week. The general feeling of calm and lack of hypervigilance have continued. Last weekend before the 5th and 6th session, there was muscle achiness/fatigue, but it pretty much passed after putting on some magnesium oil.

One of the NO sessions was followed up with receiving reiki. I was curious to see what, if any changes might occur. I'm not sure if it had anything to do with it, but I do have stronger sensations when giving reiki.

Generally speaking, my mood seems pretty even but what's been kind of surprising is how NO has helped with the symptoms of anxiety. While I'm not where I want to 'be' yet, it feels as though I have a 'space' to work with. Perhaps a better way of putting it would be that I have more energy to be present in my body as well as more resilience to life's ups and downs.
 

Gaby

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Gaby said:
I was able to work my 6th session today much easier. In the end, I felt like someone turned on a bulb in my brain. Everything was so sharp, clear and detailed. Today I worked CZ (central region) and P3 (posterior left hemisphere) targeting specific imbalances with a visual feedback. Brain waves on specific regions get re-checked before training starts.
Things didn't go out very smoothly after this Othmer NF session. The effect lasted less than 2 days and although I retained more from my training, I felt like I had too much anxiety and dissociation afterwards, except when I sat down to review the book Healing Developmental Trauma and did some specific exercises. Other days were better. A friend that saw me recently after over a year, told me that I looked happier.

After canceling these NF sessions for the third consecutive week due to my working duties, I decided to rent NeurOptimal ASAP and do that from home. The Othmer NF effect typically lasts 2 days, but every time it triggers a process that I have to integrate carefully. Also, to this day, I've been unable to do any work with my eyes closed (audio feedback) because I go on intense hypervigilance mode every time I close my eyes. I thought that a bit of extra help in terms of more sessions per week and/or NeurOptimal would be more useful and beneficial.

Today I did my 1st NeurOptimal session and felt more relaxed after it. I felt the back of my neck better and there were a couple of clicks and cracks while releasing some tension. This happened before with the Othmer NF modality as well. But I felt that NeurOptimal was more gentle and natural. For instance, the first time I did the Othmer NF, I felt real heat from the back of my neck, as if I had a red lamp behind me. With NeurOptimal, I feel more relaxed and centered. I like it!!

I don't know if I would get a boomerang effect with NeurOptimal, but will find out soon enough. The NeurOptimal home unit comes with 20 sessions for one month. If it becomes way too intense, I'll cut down on the sessions.
 

Bluefyre

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
That's really interesting Gaby. I had a similar experience years ago with the Othmer system. The trainer pushed my brain into alpha/theta too soon and my body freaked out. I read Sebern Fisher's book a couple of weeks ago before starting NO which explained a few things. There was a lot of extraneous information to do with placement of the electrodes/sensors and I skipped over those.

I've had some interesting discussions with the trainer I'm working with. The NO system targets 16 different areas of the brain so it seems to cover a lot more bases and isn't left up to the trainer. She also said that Valdeane Brown stresses the importance of using top quality stereo headphones. This came up when I asked if there was significance to hearing the scratches on the left, right or center parts of the brain. She said he's never explained but she has noticed the same things. She worked for 6 years with addiction clinics before she set up her own office so has a lot of experience with developmental trauma issues.

I had my 2nd and 3rd sessions last week and will have my 4th tomorrow. I couldn't work after the 2nd and the 3rd was milder, but I'd taken the day off. An interesting thing happened during the 3rd session. Simultaneously a couple of memories came up to do with injury to my lower back from domestic violence and at the same time a memory of being in a car with a couple friends of my mother. It was late and I was exhausted. I was in the back seat with my sister and the woman and she told me to put my head on her shoulder and go to sleep. My sister did it but I could not. I couldn't let go. I didn't trust that I wouldn't get in trouble for needing to close my eyes and go to sleep. While these memories were passing and I was observing them without any emotional charge I felt such intense pain in my lower back. I didn't fight it, just noticed it and it eventually dissolved. It was amazing. I told the trainer afterwards and she said that happens a lot. It seems, from what I understand so far, that the neural pathways are adjusting and the old messages are being dissolved and bringing the body into present time. I know it has a lot to do with the survival adaptations and how our bodies hold onto things at the deepest levels.

The other thing she mentioned was that the music she uses was put together in consultation with Valdeane Brown. It sounds new agey, but there multiple layers that are working at levels below the conscious mind. She goes to seminars regularly and really knows what she's doing. I'm so glad I found her and am entertaining the possibility of learning from her and eventually transitioning into doing this work and out of the corporate environment. She spends so much time with me and we have these amazing discussions and she has mentioned others she has mentored. I can't really put it into words but her energy is so grounded and focused, humorous and bubbly. She's a brilliant woman, filled with curiosity and gratitude from what I sense. Walking into her little office is like walking into a safe place, just what I need to quiet the fight/flight response.
 

Bluefyre

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I forgot to mention in my previous post the sense I had of the physical manifestation of the core belief that the universe is not a benevolent place, held in my lower back that was being reprogrammed with the NO. I remember from Louise Hay that the lower back holds beliefs about not being supported by life (an understatement). Have to laugh at that. Humour is good! This is the most amazing stuff!
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
lux said:
Michal said:
Hi,

I made 6 sessions until now with neurofeedback. In my area although it is rather large city as for Poland (Trojmiasto area) neurofeedback is still a niche. I found that there are some clinical applications available but they are allotted to people/children with some illnesses and in general are meant as a supportive therapy for those, working on prescription or so.

Equipment which I am using is elMiko with 4 electrodes and normally working on 2 electrodes and 2 attached to my ears. 12-pack costs almost 900 PLN which stands for approx. 200 euro.

First session was with 4 electrodes on my scalp :) and two on ears. After first check my "waves" were average like this:
1. Delta wave: average: F3 20.30, F4 22.81; C3 16.92; C4 17.29
2. Theta wave: average: F3 9.18; F4 8.94; C3 8.06; C4 7.54;
3. Alpha wave: average: F3 5.31; F4 5.15; C3 5.87; C4 5.69;
4. SMR wave: average: F3 3.63; F4 3.41; C3 3.24; C4 3.43;
5. Beta wave: average: F3 4.96; F4 4.72; C3 4.99; C4 4.91;
6. Beta2 wave (21-35Hz): average: F3 5.28; F4 5.27; C3 5.10; C4 4.88;
all values in micro Volts. As I understand F stand for frontal and C for central which was placement of electrodes.
I just know as I was told that I make progress whatever that means :). I got 6 more sessions.

I asked if they know about Neuroptimal but they have not heard.
For the time being I do not feel anything noticeable to me. Will report after further 6 sessions and let You know.
What is the name of the company??
lux,

Michal mentions the company in his post as Elmiko.

They have a 2-channel EEGDigiTrack™ Biofeedback VR - KIT

The biggest difference between other systems and NeurOptimal seems to be that the software used in NO requires no technician intervention to adjust frequencies and starts with your current brain feedback as the starting point to give feedback in the form of interruption markers in video and audio form. It may be that other systems could help but may be more aggressive the way they are applied resulting in more negative side-effects OSIT.
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
My first session with NO happened this Saturday 2-24-2018 at our NE Meet-up.

I was hooked up for the NO session and started by watching the video display for awhile and decided that the audio worked better for me so I closed my eyes for most of the session. The baseline was established before the actual session. I think it requires recording with eyes open and then eyes closed to get the baseline reading. I was getting drowsy towards the end of the session but didn’t actually fall asleep (as far as I know..lol).

I did notice that some of the graphs activity seemed logical for a left hander. The same activity seemed to show on Guille’s graphs for right brain activity vs left brain since Guille is also left handed.

There was no drastic change felt afterwards. During the session I found the video to be kind of distracting and could not really notice if there was any skipping or interruption since the graphics seemed kind of meaningless to me. I switched to closing my eyes and listening to the audio which I felt I could relate to more easily. The music was relaxing and I felt I had more affinity to it. I didn't notice a lot of interruptions but maybe some as I relaxed and listened.

The diagnostic graphics were interesting and I will read more about what they mean. I think the general modulating bars for left and right hemispheres showed a logical activity with more in the right hemisphere to be expected for someone who is left-handed.

That is just a very basic understanding that needs to be expanded as I learn more.

I see that others had difficulty with the graphics which are basically generated by Windows Media player for now.

https://graymatter7112.wordpress.com/2016/10/25/product-review-neuroptimal-neurofeedback-made-by-zengar/ said:
The Cons

The visual graphics that the system uses right now is Windows media player, and although, this is beautiful, I personally would appreciate a different more visually appealing program. ( I understand Zengar is looking at changing that in its newest rendition)
The paste is still a concern with all systems, traditional and NeurOptimal, for now that is a concern we all just have to live with!
The program is so easy to use it is putting therapists out of business! No seriously reducing the number of months sometimes years a therapist is working with a client!
It could be a placebo effect but I feel more positive generally since the meet-up but then I also had a Reiki session too.

I found an interesting article on the placebo effect with neurofeedback which may be a bit biased or not:

Fifty ways to annihilate the placebo hypothesis of neurofeedback efficacy:
 

Luks

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
goyacobol said:
lux said:
Michal said:
Hi,

I made 6 sessions until now with neurofeedback. In my area although it is rather large city as for Poland (Trojmiasto area) neurofeedback is still a niche. I found that there are some clinical applications available but they are allotted to people/children with some illnesses and in general are meant as a supportive therapy for those, working on prescription or so.

Equipment which I am using is elMiko with 4 electrodes and normally working on 2 electrodes and 2 attached to my ears. 12-pack costs almost 900 PLN which stands for approx. 200 euro.

First session was with 4 electrodes on my scalp :) and two on ears. After first check my "waves" were average like this:
1. Delta wave: average: F3 20.30, F4 22.81; C3 16.92; C4 17.29
2. Theta wave: average: F3 9.18; F4 8.94; C3 8.06; C4 7.54;
3. Alpha wave: average: F3 5.31; F4 5.15; C3 5.87; C4 5.69;
4. SMR wave: average: F3 3.63; F4 3.41; C3 3.24; C4 3.43;
5. Beta wave: average: F3 4.96; F4 4.72; C3 4.99; C4 4.91;
6. Beta2 wave (21-35Hz): average: F3 5.28; F4 5.27; C3 5.10; C4 4.88;
all values in micro Volts. As I understand F stand for frontal and C for central which was placement of electrodes.
I just know as I was told that I make progress whatever that means :). I got 6 more sessions.

I asked if they know about Neuroptimal but they have not heard.
For the time being I do not feel anything noticeable to me. Will report after further 6 sessions and let You know.
What is the name of the company??
lux,

Michal mentions the company in his post as Elmiko.

They have a 2-channel EEGDigiTrack™ Biofeedback VR - KIT

The biggest difference between other systems and NeurOptimal seems to be that the software used in NO requires no technician intervention to adjust frequencies and starts with your current brain feedback as the starting point to give feedback in the form of interruption markers in video and audio form. It may be that other systems could help but may be more aggressive the way they are applied resulting in more negative side-effects OSIT.
You are great! I typed 'elmiko' in Google, but I was receiving some rubbish... Now, I have the site. Thanks.
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
lux said:
You are great! I typed 'elmiko' in Google, but I was receiving some rubbish... Now, I have the site. Thanks.
You are welcome.
It's probably just that 1 NeurOptimal session I had. :P
 

Alejo

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Hey everyone,

My brother is around visiting, he has a psychology major and currently doing his masters with focus on neurology, so he was obviously very interested in NO when I mentioned I would be renting it.

He’s very intrigued by the mechanism and has been rather curiously looking into it, this morning he found the following document (that some of you may have already seen) that I wanted to share with you all.
 

Attachments

Gandalf

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
goyacobol said:
There is an interesting guidelines PDF on the NeurOptimal site that debunks some myths about the system such as how frequent can the sessions be:

NeurOptimal Myth Busters
Thanks so much goyacobol. Since we are going to have the system for one month, we wanted to do a session a day but we had some doubts about the frequency.

As they say "onward and upward" for a session a day.
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Gandalf said:
goyacobol said:
There is an interesting guidelines PDF on the NeurOptimal site that debunks some myths about the system such as how frequent can the sessions be:

NeurOptimal Myth Busters
Thanks so much goyacobol. Since we are going to have the system for one month, we wanted to do a session a day but we had some doubts about the frequency.

As they say "onward and upward" for a session a day.
Yes, Gandalf, "onward and upward".

If you are test driving a car you take it out for a spin and even kick the tires sometimes. :huh: :cool: :cool2:
 

Renaissance

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Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Gandalf said:
goyacobol said:
There is an interesting guidelines PDF on the NeurOptimal site that debunks some myths about the system such as how frequent can the sessions be:

NeurOptimal Myth Busters
Thanks so much goyacobol. Since we are going to have the system for one month, we wanted to do a session a day but we had some doubts about the frequency.

As they say "onward and upward" for a session a day.
Now sure if you were saying you're going forward with a session per day, but in the pdf it recommends not doing it every day so your brain has time to process. They mention you should allow two nights sleep between sessions.
 

Mark

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
I had my 3rd session yesterday. After the 2nd session I had a strong headache for the entire day (similar to a herxheimer reaction, which may or may not have been entirely related to the neuro feedback since I'd taken a high dose of probiotics), I took some naproxen that evening and the headache stopped. Other than that, I've been sleeping Ok, waking up in the usual time frame, however today I felt much more alert and mentally active.
 

Approaching Infinity

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Renaissance said:
Gandalf said:
goyacobol said:
There is an interesting guidelines PDF on the NeurOptimal site that debunks some myths about the system such as how frequent can the sessions be:

NeurOptimal Myth Busters
Thanks so much goyacobol. Since we are going to have the system for one month, we wanted to do a session a day but we had some doubts about the frequency.

As they say "onward and upward" for a session a day.
Now sure if you were saying you're going forward with a session per day, but in the pdf it recommends not doing it every day so your brain has time to process. They mention you should allow two nights sleep between sessions.
Which PDF? The one goyacobol posted debunks that as a myth (#1), saying you can do 2 sessions a day if you want.
 
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