NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography

[Altair]

Last night I had a series of dreams that, at least it seemed to me, concerned past life dynamics. Places of work, periods of time, and dysfunctional family dynamics were covered in a straight-forward informational way. I am not using the Neuroptimal system, though this is the third week of doing biofeedback exercises.

Sorry, if I missed it but what are these exercises you are doing?

I am doing heart-rate variability biofeedback as well as brain training with a practitioner. Though I'm not sure what system she's using I know that it differs from Neuroptimal. I discuss the exercises more thoroughly here and about my testing here. I have had one brain training session and felt fatigued afterwards, and have had three weeks of heart training.

Isn't it the same approach that was discussed here and here?

Somehow, I don't think "coherence" is going to really help a person with needed disintegration of false personality. This appears to be a rather mechanical approach that can help, but only just.

It seems rather similar to the Dan Winter/Vinnie Bridges "heartmath" business.

Q: (Daniel) I have one more. Is there any validity to the information on heartmath.org about heart and brainwave coherence, or is it just a short term fix like EFT?

A: It is total nonsense and inducement to dissociation and destruction of conscience. Navel gazing anyone?

Ummm... I think you better do some research on the "heartmath institute" and the authors of the paper. This is the self-calming stuff that Dan Winter, Vincent Bridges, Jay Weidner, and the rest of the cointelpro gang have been promoting for years.

But, of course, the heartmath institute people are NOW disavowing any relationship with Dan. _http://www.heartrelease.com/coherence-3.html

 

[Hesper]

Last night I had a series of dreams that, at least it seemed to me, concerned past life dynamics. Places of work, periods of time, and dysfunctional family dynamics were covered in a straight-forward informational way. I am not using the Neuroptimal system, though this is the third week of doing biofeedback exercises.

Sorry, if I missed it but what are these exercises you are doing?

I am doing heart-rate variability biofeedback as well as brain training with a practitioner. Though I'm not sure what system she's using I know that it differs from Neuroptimal. I discuss the exercises more thoroughly here and about my testing here. I have had one brain training session and felt fatigued afterwards, and have had three weeks of heart training.

Isn't it the same approach that was discussed here and here?

Thank you for that info Altair, I had missed that. I don't think it's the same approach - though HeartMath research was cited by my practitioner we don't use HeartMath tools and I was cautioned as to its airy-fairiness. As cited in my post heart-rate variability biofeedback has been found effective for a number of different issues, and it has had a definite, positive impact for me. The brain exercises are un-related.

 

[Pierre]

I did a Neuroptimal session years ago without noticing much effect. Since then I've been wondering how it really works. In this thread I found some relevant information but some pieces of the puzzle were missing (maybe I missed some relevant posts?)

In any case I think I finally understood the process when reading an article in French that Chu had found on the internet. Here is an attempt to explain in simple terms how Neuroptimal technology works.

The subject is watching a movie while his brain activity is monitored. Specifically it is the 1 hz to 60 Hz frequencies that are monitored. This includes the 4 most important frequency ranges (alpha, beta gamma theta) which are the markers of specific brain activities (relaxation, fight or flight, thinking...)

When a neuronal turbulence (i.e. an increased chaotic brain activity manifesting as higher signal amplitude) is detected via the electrode, the neuroptimal system will micro-stop the movie (consciously undetectable but subconsciously detectable) and it will slightly darken the picture and lower the volume.

This micro-stop is very similar to the disturbances humans encounter for millennia in their environment, like a twig snapping in the forest. Such a stimuli triggers what is called an 'orientation phase' where the individual focuses all his attention on the twig sound in order to assess whether it's a real threat or not.

That's why it's called 'orientation phase': depending on the assessment, the individual will opt to ignore it (parasympathetic response) or to consider it as a real threat and activate the fight or flight mode (sympathetic response)

This hyper-focus / orientation phase is not and end by itself, its main interest is that when it's triggered, it inhibits all the other brain activities, including the brain turbulence that led to the orientation phase (via the twig snapping / movie micro-stop) in the first place.

The learning mechanism is reinforced by the fact that each time the brain goes back in non-turbulent mode, the picture gets a bit brighter and the audio gets a bit clearer.

If I understood the process correctly, it is a very elegant, convincing and evolutionary sound approach, that combines positive and negative reinforcement.

At this point there are still questions pending. What if the subject doesn't exhibit any brain turbulence? Maybe it means his brain is okay and he doesn't need neurofeedback. Maybe we all exhibit brain turbulence even when were are not in what we consider a stressful environment.

Also if we teach our brain to systematically associate the orientation phase with a return to the parasympathetic/relax mode will we end up overlooking real threats? Maybe it won't happen because during neuroptimal session it is not real threats that are associated with parasympathetic /relax response but only potential ones that, when duly assessed, are discarded.

 

[shellycheval]

Friday 26 Jan 18
Friday afternoon at 3:00 I had my first NO training session. The practitioner lives nearby and came to my house for the session. She brought a laptop with the program on it and I sat in my comfortable chair and listened to music with ear plugs (but I will use my larger headphones next time as they are more comfortable). I motivated myself to clean up the house before she came and I was feeling relaxed and positive at the start of the session. My experience was like Timotheos described:

I chose to listen to the music instead of watching the video, which was kind of a new-age compilation of reverb congas, melodic guitar and piano, with a kind of native American chanting overtop. I relaxed into a meditative state, concentrating on the sound and noticed a moderate amount [more for me--only a few seconds pause between the quick clicks] of clicking breaks in the music. Sometimes there'd be a break every few seconds, sometimes no clicks for a minute or more. I kinda zoned out and it was over before I knew it.

Afterward I felt deeply relaxed and had that "sinking/melting/softening" feeling I get when I have had a good meditation session or (when I used to practice) a great yoga workout. I was hungry and ate a good dinner and slept normally (which is deep and relaxed but shorter than average) but maybe an hour longer than usual. The next day I felt undeservedly joyful for the entire day and managed to accomplish several ordinary tasks that I often procrastinate on and that feel like a struggle to get done much of time. I don't know how much of that I can attribute to NO yet as I sometimes have "up" days where I have a lot of energy and a very good mood. We will see how sustainable the effect is over the next few days and after my next appointment in a week. I have not noticed any change in my dream patterns yet, and I have no negative reactions that I am aware of at this time.

This morning I continue to feel positive about the day and at this point, focused on the next right thing to do. I will probably switch to renting the program and commit to about 20 sessions and see how it goes.

 

[Jacques]

In any case I think I finally understood the process when reading an article in French that Chu had found on the internet. Here is an attempt to explain in simple terms how Neuroptimal technology works.

Pierre, do you have the link for the French's article?

 

[Laura]

I had a different approach to the sessions: I deliberately tried to think about upsetting things so as to help my brain learn to deal with it and not tip me over the edge into the pit. Not much point in meditating to prove how smooth your brain is when you are trying to train it to be that way under stress!!!

 

[Divide by Zero]

I had a different approach to the sessions: I deliberately tried to think about upsetting things so as to help my brain learn to deal with it and not tip me over the edge into the pit. Not much point in meditating to prove how smooth your brain is when you are trying to train it to be that way under stress!!!

Interesting tactic! I'm not sure what the practitioners recommend. Is this way considered valid for neurofeedback; to try and bring up upsetting feelings? Or is it better for the system to look at your mind while it is "neutral" and see the underlying "chaos" that might actually be the trigger that leads to feed these worries/fears?

In my sessions, occasionally worries and fears just come up randomly, like when I do EE. When they come up, instead of trying to clear my mind, I try to feel deeper into those worries (like how Open-Focus explains to face pain/feelings) and they go away quicker than if I try to ignore them.

My main benefit from NO is sleep. I used to wake up and feel groggy and tired through the day, even if I got a lot of sleep. Now I may feel tired at first but the overall lethargy that I'd feel in my body is not there as much. Even after a hard day at work, I'd feel like I want a nap when I get home, but I end up not being able to nap because the tiredness fades away. It's not this overwhelming feeling anymore. It feels more like a "choice" to be tired or not!

 

[Chu]

In any case I think I finally understood the process when reading an article in French that Chu had found on the internet. Here is an attempt to explain in simple terms how Neuroptimal technology works.

Pierre, do you have the link for the French's article?

Here it is, Gandalf: https://www.adnf.org/choix_equipement_EEG_biofeedback.htm#principe (scroll down to "Principe de fonctionnement du logiciel NeurOptimal")

And for English speakers, here's a Deepl translation:

How NeurOptimal software works

(NB: the description below of the neurofeedback as implemented by the NeurOptimal software is inevitably simplified, and cannot fully account for the subtlety of the mathematical calculation when analyzing the brain signal, nor for the subtlety of the effects produced on the brain. The effects described below are a plausible hypothesis given the current state of knowledge on brain function, but they are difficult to demonstrate. This hypothesis only binds the ADNF.)

During a neurofeedback session, the NeurOptimal software analyzes in real time the electrical signal produced by the person's brain in each cerebral hemisphere. This complex EEG signal can be broken down as the superimposition of 60 regular signals made up of one to 60 oscillations per second, with the amplitude of these oscillations constantly varying. These regular frequency signals ranging from 1 to 60 Hz are grouped into 10 significant frequency bands for each cerebral hemisphere: signals from 0 to 6 Hz are grouped in the delta-theta band, signals from 8 to 13 Hz are grouped in the alpha band, and so on. The software then monitors in each frequency band for turbulence, i. e. a sudden change in the amplitude of the electrical signal. The sudden increase in amplitude at a given frequency means that an increasing number of neurons are suddenly recruited to let an electrical current (the nerve impulse) repeatedly pass through at that frequency. In the worst case scenario, this is a warning sign of an epileptic seizure.

When turbulence is detected, the NeurOptimal software briefly interrupts the sound of the music or film played during the session. This micro-cut triggers the orientation response in the person's brain, which immediately interrupts the development of this turbulence. This reaction is spontaneous and unconscious, requiring no voluntary effort on the part of the person. Moreover, most often, the micro-cut is not audible consciously although it lasts long enough to be perceived unconsciously (between 20 and 200 ms).

Orientation response is a survival mechanism, also present in animals, which consists of immediately directing attention to a potential hazard when an unexpected change occurs in the flow of information received by the brain. During the neurofeedback session, this unexpected variation is the micro-cut of the music or film. For one of our ancestors hunting in the forest, it could be the cracking of a branch... To give absolute priority to the immediate observation of a potential danger, the orientation response relies on the activation of inhibitory neurons, those neurons that decrease or even block the transmission of nerve impulses by other neurons. The current activity of the brain that would give rise to turbulence is inhibited for the acute observation of the present moment.

Following the initiation of the orientation response, a number of neurons inhibiting incipient electrical turbulence were activated and passed through a current. And a certain number of excitatory neurons (those that increase the transmission of nerve impulses) that were going to be recruited to participate in this turbulence were finally not covered by a current because the turbulence was interrupted. Memorization, which is based on the reinforcement of neural circuits, requires that these circuits are repeatedly traversed by nerve impulses. A neural connection that is regularly activated strengthens. Conversely, a neuronal connection that is no longer activated weakens and eventually eventually weakens (1). Inhibitory neuronal connections will therefore be reinforced by the micro-interruption of the music (or film) and the triggering of the orientation response. And exciting neural connections will be weakened as a result of the interruption of the detected turbulence. In the end, the reinforcement of inhibitory neuronal connections and the weakening of excitatory neuronal connections involved in turbulence will gradually lead the person's brain to a more balanced, less anxious functioning, leading to considerable functional improvements in some people.

In summary:
NeurOptimal software analyzes the brain signal and monitors turbulence in 8 frequency bands for each cerebral hemisphere.
When turbulence is detected, the NeurOptimal software briefly interrupts the sound of the music or film.
This micro-break triggers the orientation response, which immediately interrupts the development of turbulence.
This induces the reinforcement of inhibitory neuronal connections and the weakening of excitatory neuronal connections involved in turbulence.
In the end, the person's brain is brought to a more balanced functioning.

(1) At the risk of complicating matters a little, we can try to clarify this statement, which is only approximate. Since Donald Hebb's original hypothesis in 1949, one of the rules for strengthening neural connections seems to be confirmed:

If N1 and N2 are strongly activated at the same time (N1F and N2F ratings), their connection strengthens (N1F>>N2F).
So N1F>N2F tends towards N1F>>N2F.

Using the diagram below, let's now take a look at the context of the birth of turbulence. This context is essentially based on highly activated exciter neurons (EF) connected to each other (E1F>E2F). If turbulence is allowed to develop, the rule set out above will apply massively: the excitatory neuronal connections will strengthen (E1F>>E2F) which will make it easier for further turbulence to occur later on. This is avoided by inhibiting incipient turbulence by triggering the orientation response. This new context is essentially based on the strong activation of inhibitory neurons (I1F) connected to highly activated excitatory neurons (E2F) which participate in turbulence, these inhibitory neurons being themselves activated by excitatory neurons (E3F) stimulated by the triggering of the orientation response. The stated rule applies again (apart from the fact that its validity is still to be demonstrated for inhibitory connections): the inhibitory neuronal connections are strengthened (E3F>>I1F>>E2F) which will make it easier to inhibit further turbulence later on. On the other hand, by systematically associating the orientation response to the nascent turbulence, the stated rule applies to reinforce the E2F>I1F connections, which means that the nascent turbulence becomes capable of triggering its own conditioning inhibition (E2F>>I1F>>E2F). When triggering the orientation response, the complete learning is then summarized as: E1F>>E2F avoided for E2 neurons that could not participate in the inhibited turbulence, and E3F>>I1F>>E2F and E2F>>I1F>>E2F for those who participated in the turbulence during inhibition.

(According to the Wilson-Cowan model)

Principle of operation of classical neurofeedback software

(NB: here again, the brief description below of the neurofeedback as implemented by these software packages is inevitably simplified, and cannot fully account for the subtlety of mathematical computation when analysing the brain signal, nor for the subtlety of the effects produced on the brain.

Classical neurofeedback equipment also decomposes the electrical signal produced by the brain into various frequency bands, but they are interested in the absolute value of the amplitude of the signal in these frequency bands, and not as the NeurOptimal software only in the sudden variations of this value. When the amplitude value increases or decreases above a certain threshold, in a manner considered desirable in reference to a "norm" of good cerebral function, the person doing the session is "rewarded" by the appearance of an appetizing consequence or the withdrawal of an aversive stimulus. For example, the sound of the movie or music increases and the image becomes clearer, or the video game car accelerates. Conversely, when the amplitude of the signal does not evolve satisfactorily, the person making the session is "punished" by the appearance of an aversive consequence or the withdrawal of an appetizing stimulus: the sound of the film or music decreases and the image is darkened, or the car of the video game slows down, etc. The sound of the film or music decreases and the image is darkened. Through this operating mode of conditioning (punishment/reward), the person learns to modulate the amplitude of his cerebral signals, a little by groping at the beginning because it is not obvious when one is "punished" to correct a cerebral signal on which a priori one has little voluntary control, except to modulate one's psychological state by seeking to relax or to concentrate, etc., by being guided. This mode of learning by conscious control is slower than the unconscious learning implemented by the NeurOptimal software and requires a higher number of sessions of about 50% for an equivalent result.

It's starting to make more sense now! It reminds me of the polyvagal theory, and the explanation about the "orientation response" (I think Porges uses a different term) is all messed up in most people nowadays. Instead of focusing to assess danger in an alert but calm way, most people are in a constant fight or flight mode, or go straight into "immobilization". Thus, what NeurOptimal is doing (if the above is accurate) is resetting the system. Less energy spent in dealing with trauma, stress, and danger that is "in our heads", and more spent on a real assessment of a situation. From there on, it would be theoretically possible for the "smart vagus" (related to social interactions, connection, bonding, etc.) to be better activated, thus making a person feel safer and feel some joy, and/or live more in the present. OSIT.

 

[munaychasumaq]

Seems to me to doing Èiriù Eolas we can access the same result in long term,and the results of Neurofeedback could be in short term.Am i Ok? Some suggestions?

 

[Laura]

Seems to me to doing Èiriù Eolas we can access the same result in long term,and the results of Neurofeedback could be in short term.Am i Ok? Some suggestions?

As you know, it is recommended that persons with certain psychological issues do NOT do portions of the EE program because it can trigger unpleasant cathartic reactions. That is exactly the sort of thing that NF helps to fix. And, if it fixes such problems, how much better can a person be who does NOT have those conditions by using NF?

From my point of view, NF is another tool in the kit that can help all of us to be all we can be, to lay a foundation for even higher achievements. I know that I still have limiting emotions that hold me back even after years and years of work. As I mentioned, for me, channeling the Cs is very much like NF; but obviously, I'm not sitting still and not exploring for better ways to build the mousetrap!

 

[Persej]

Perhaps Èiriù Eolas could be combined with Neuroptimal. For example, instead of music, one could listen to the Laura's guided breathing trough the headphones that are connected to the Neuroptimal system. Same thing for meditation - you listen to the Laura's voice (with the music in the background) while the Neuroptimal monitors your brain and gives you feedback.

It looks like timings can be modified so to accommodate EE sessions: https://youtu.be/ufJ_x6xfZ4E?t=250

 

[Laura]

Perhaps Èiriù Eolas could be combined with Neuroptimal. For example, instead of music, one could listen to the Laura's guided breathing trough the headphones that are connected to the Neuroptimal system. Same thing for meditation - you listen to the Laura's voice (with the music in the background) while the Neuroptimal monitors your brain and gives you feedback.

It looks like timings can be modified so to accommodate EE sessions: https://youtu.be/ufJ_x6xfZ4E?t=250

I think it is better to use music/images that are more neutral.

 

[nature]

Did neurofeedback have anything to do with my tiredness and how I slept last night? I don’t know. It was a busy and tiring day in general. Despite (or because of?) how much I slept last night, I am still feeling tired and sleepy today too. So we will see. I made another appointment for next week. Now I am more curious than before even, because that nose-opening thing was totally unexpected, even if helpful in the end. Plus I want to finish watching Pinocchio.

You focused highly on Pinocchio's nose ! :D

Actually, I didn't get to that part of the movie yet, where his nose gets longer every time he lies. I totally forgot about this aspect of the story! I chose Pinocchio because of a video by Jordan Peterson talking about the "psychological truths" hidden in that story/movie, and I hadn't watched it since I was a child, so when I saw it available, I thought that it was a good opportunity to refresh my memory. I didn't consciously make the nose-Pinocchio connection until you brought it up. Interesting!
[...]

You give me the idea to choose a video where characters have got big ears !! ;D Thank you, Alana!

 

[Ollie]

I had a different approach to the sessions: I deliberately tried to think about upsetting things so as to help my brain learn to deal with it and not tip me over the edge into the pit. Not much point in meditating to prove how smooth your brain is when you are trying to train it to be that way under stress!!!

I agree that this is the way to move forward with these sessions, after all, we are seeking to move forward, to be who we really can be.

 

[PERLOU]

Je découvre cette page et vous remercie pour vos partages...
Je vais prendre le temps de les lire entièrement...
Je pratique l'EE les nuits de lundi et jeudi chaque semaine.

I discover this page and thank you for your sharing...
I will take the time to read them all...
I practice EE on Monday and Thursday nights every week.