NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography

[Zasino]

Can we use this with NO?

Persej, no idea. NO uses the Windows Media Player, so we're probably stuck with even more delays (the video you posted says it used to be half a second, but that nowadays it is "much better").
As DBZ points out above, it takes our brain another eternity (300ms! I thought it was shorter than that) so we might as well forget about latency issues. What I would like to see in a future NO soundwise is a better quality. FLAC or WAV encoded from a direct analog or CD source (NOT from an MP3!). Don't use the speaker/HP output; use the Line-out or a USB DAC, into a cross-feed circuit and lastly a suitable headphone amp. There's an instructable out there to DIY the cross-feed: Cheap Acoustic Simulator (Crossfeed) for Headphones

As a result of all this, after a session I would expect to feel relaxed but not tired with sometimes a slight headache.

 

[Persej]

Persej, no idea.

Well, the bad news is that we most probably can't since the player must specifically support the ASIO driver. But the good news is that Microsoft improved the audio latency in Windows 10. Perhaps that is why some people report that NO3 is better than NO2?

NO uses the Windows Media Player, so we're probably stuck with even more delays (the video you posted says it used to be half a second, but that nowadays it is "much better").

NO in version 3 uses their own player. But it can also use Kodi player which supports WASAPI. I don't know if there is any difference between two players in terms of latency.

As DBZ points out above, it takes our brain another eternity (300ms! I thought it was shorter than that) so we might as well forget about latency issues.

If that's true than why have Microsoft decided to improve their latency for a couple of milliseconds?

What I would like to see in a future NO soundwise is a better quality. FLAC or WAV encoded from a direct analog or CD source (NOT from an MP3!).

Actually, they say that for lower latency you want to use lower quality:

Wouldn't it be better, if all applications use the new APIs for low latency? Doesn't low latency always guarantee a better user experience for the user?

Not necessarily. Low latency has its tradeoffs:

Low latency means higher power consumption. If the system uses 10ms buffers, it means that the CPU will wake up every 10ms, fill the data buffer and go to sleep. However, if the system uses 1ms buffers, it means that the CPU will wake up every 1ms. In the second scenario, this means that the CPU will wake up more often and the power consumption will increase. This will decrease battery life.

Most applications rely on audio effects to provide the best user experience. For example, media players want to provide high-fidelity audio. Communication applications want to minimum echo and noise. Adding these types of audio effects to a stream increases its latency. These applications are more interested in audio quality than in audio latency.

Low Latency Audio - Windows drivers

As a result of all this, after a session I would expect to feel relaxed but not tired with sometimes a slight headache.

You could try open headphones. Or perhaps that's just the result of NeuroFeedback changing your brain.

 

[Divide by Zero]

300ms was tested with olympic runners- how fast they start moving to the gun shot to start the race.

I don't think the reaction time is as critical with NO. Yes, you're right that if hearing has less delay, it helps (especially in games that need reaction time)... but if the visual based neurofeedback works with more delay (from visual processing), what if the way that neurofeedback works is not based on realtime correction, but the cycle of giving the brain time to refocus and try again?

From what I understand of the cryptic words of Val (the creator of NO), if the software sees your brain waves settle into some state that they determine as not beneficial, the noise is there to stop those brain cycles- to move the brain onto something else, which gets analyzed- and then after so many tries, you may not get the skips because the software sees a good brain wave pattern.
I don't think it's an instantaneous system that is trying to correct your brainwaves. Some systems are like that and they use electrical feedback into the electrodes- one is called LENS and it has a much faster effect in a few sessions, but like a lot of these neurofeedback protocols, things are secretive as to what exactly determines what.

It's sad that modern science still looks at neurofeedback as a fringe science. It just makes it harder for us to understand exactly what is happening in the brain that makes it work...

 

[Zasino]

If that's true than why have Microsoft decided to improve their latency for a couple of milliseconds?
...

Persej, Microsoft may have their valid reasons to reduce latency, but with NO, sound latency is not an issue IMO, and we've tried to explain this in several ways. You are welcome to experiment with lower latencies and report results, but I consider shaving off 10ms - let alone 50us from 800ms+ to be a fool's errand.
Audio quality is altogether a different matter.

You could try open headphones.

Oh well, looks like the olympic runners are running in circles here.

 

[Persej]

300ms was tested with olympic runners- how fast they start moving to the gun shot to start the race.

Oh. So it's not just how fast do you recognize the sound but also how fast do you start moving. Well, that would explain why that number is so high.

I don't think the reaction time is as critical with NO. Yes, you're right that if hearing has less delay, it helps (especially in games that need reaction time)... but if the visual based neurofeedback works with more delay (from visual processing), what if the way that neurofeedback works is not based on realtime correction, but the cycle of giving the brain time to refocus and try again?

Well, first of all, as I already explained, even visual neurofeedback is not that slow as previously thought, which is proved by video games. And second thing is that I'm not saying the neurofeedback won't work if the reaction time is slow, it's just that I think that perhaps it might be improved in that way, like that LENS that you mentioned which uses a different kind of feedback and gives faster effect. Perhaps even some haptic feedback will be used for neurofeedback in the future to improve the process.

but like a lot of these neurofeedback protocols, things are secretive as to what exactly determines what.

It's sad that modern science still looks at neurofeedback as a fringe science. It just makes it harder for us to understand exactly what is happening in the brain that makes it work...

I certainly agree with that. That is why the only thing we can do for now is discussion about various parameters and a little experimentation.

 

[Persej]

Audio quality is altogether a different matter.

So you think that bit depth and sample rate are important? But wouldn't that require good quality headphones to notice the difference?

 

[Persej]

This guy talks about how our auditory system can recognize sound in time resolution of just 7 microseconds:

 

[Martina]

Martina, I could not find anyone in Croatia that deals with NeurOptimal (the closest is located in Austria), but there are a lot of them dealing with other biofeedback and neurofeedback technologie. It is recognized as therapeutic method by HZZO (Health Insurance) and is used in hospitals in psychiatry and neurology departments and in various associations that help children with certain developmental difficulties.

Yes I've seen that, but we're to old to pass as children with developmental difficulties

 

[Laura]

Yes I've seen that, but we're to old to pass as children with developmental difficulties

We are working on a plan to get the NO available to FOTCM members in the Balkans. Be patient!

 

[Zar]

A little update.

I've done about 60 NO sessions or so and have made plans to do many more since I visited a Naturopath and got some answers. Over the past ten years or more, I've been sort of noticing degenerating brain function and I was mostly unaware of it until my adrenals began to collapse and I began to develop chronic fatigue. NO fixed that issue on the first session, but the underlying cause was unknown until last month. My Naturophath used an EMI (Electro Meridian Imagine) test and it showed that my Nervous System is chronically stressed, producing cortisol 24/7(for all my life I think since the trauma was very early), which caused my adrenals to shut down and resulted in that chronic fatigue I experienced. This is what is causing my lapses in memory, focus, attention, and basically most of my degrading brain functions. Also since my sympathetic system is chronically activated any parasympathetic processes are inhibited, like digesting and such, which cause more problems to my body systems. Also my hormone levels are out of wack and the tests showed that my liver is stressed as well.

So I'm going to see this NO practitioner who will also do Craniosacral therapy(she calls it this but I think she's doing something altogether different than Craniosacral, more like Myofascial release) at the same time, and both types of 'therapies' seem to go very well together. Craniosacral helps release trauma and when it does the NO integrates it, so I don't experience much emotional releases.

Previously I was experiencing massive mental drains after NO, and even after trying out L-tyrosine and L-triptophan (I believe) it still took me 3 days to recover. So I took a break from NO but it turns out that I was low in Magnesium, which my Naturopath also tested for, and now I don't experience that mental drain after NO.

 

[Zar]

Wait that's my misunderstanding, my NO practitioner does do Craniosacral after all.

 

[candasiri]

Has been so interesting reading about peoples' experiences with NO. I had my first session yesterday in Concord, MA USA. Found the practitioner through the NO website. She practices in a home office overlooking conservation land. Felt really good just being in her office--it just seemed to give off healing vibes and she had crystals and pictures of "guides" etc. Love all of that stuff. She does a type of counseling that uses muscle testing as well. I signed up for that too just because I liked her and her office and felt like this woman has the healing touch. It's interesting that I was in touch with someone else last spring about setting up sessions but it just didn't pan out.

I had the option of either lying down or sitting up--I chose lying down on a massage table with some special heating pad and a eye mask. Listened to music. I was amazed that after 33 minutes I felt a clarity and a groundedness that I have never felt before. It felt like I was settled in my body for the first time. I felt my constant negativity abate. I felt a sense of confidence. It really felt like magic. She explained when I hear skips in the music, that means that my nervous system would be correcting itself.

I diagnosed myself with Attention Deficit D/o when I was in my early 30s as I entered the mental health field as a practitioner. I've struggled having a sensitive nervous system pretty much all my life although I did not understand the array of things I struggled with, sensitivity was essentially the root of the issue.

I've been also taking CBD oil daily for the last 5 months. This has also helped with chronic negative mind states that for me just seem like second nature. I don't consider myself as having a deep trauma history this lifetime but of course I've had my many struggles. With shamanic healing/trusted psychic readings, I know that I've had some very deep trauma in past lives and have a sense of unmitigated aversion to being human. I've also been practicing more body-centered meditation as taught by Reggie Ray of Dharma Ocean who learned from the modern Tibetan teachers. EE and his methods have much in common.

During the NO session, I saw colors and images and it did feel like I was going into my subconscious. Besides the clarity and confidence and centeredness, I felt quite tired by the end of the day but activated more at night. Hungry.

Signed up for 6 more sessions. I work on a inpatient psychiatric unit (very part time--all I can handle) that specializes in trauma and wonder how NO could help these patients--most of them have borderline personality d/o, barely functioning often. I'm curious to see how I can introduce it to the head psychiatrist when I have more experience with it, can explain better how it works. Essentially all we do inpatient is keep people from killing themselves/hurting themselves too badly, teach some DBT skills, and dole out the pharmaceuticals in spades.

Now wishing to have a machine of my own since it had such profound effects for me. Anyways, I'm looking forward to the next session.

At the start of the session, the practitioner asked me how I heard about Neuroptimal and I explained the Cassiopaeans and she didn't flinch at "6th density light beings who are no longer in the reincarnation cycle as we know it" so I sensed a kindred spirit.

 

[nature]

Just an idea for those who don't like using the glue for sensors. There are 2 types of sensors; the flat ones (on the scalp) and the clips (on the ears)
For the flat ones: I still use the glue
For the clips: I use fat ! Cooked lard I mean. And it works! I underwent a session with glue and another one with lard: the curves are the same, and I still hear the interruptions when using lard.
Moreover, lard is not toxic for skin, nourrishes it, and I don't need to remove it. i had ear eczema since a long date, it reduced when I massaged my ears with the fat used for NO sessions. (It really dissapeared with my carnivore diet)

 

[Ant22]

And it works! I underwent a session with glue and another one with lard: the curves are the same, and I still hear the interruptions when using lard.

Hi nature, I totally agree that lard has amazing skin benefits, such a great skin care product! But I think that the fact that you could hear the clicks has to do with the recording and ear phones rather than the sensors so I was wondering how you assessed it works with lard?

Lard is fat while the paste is water soluble. I couldn't find much info on conductivity of fat but I came across this article stating that fat tissue is less conductive than water:

ELECTRICAL CONDUCTIVITY TO PREDICT BODY COMPOSITION OF MAMMALS AND THE EFFECT OF GASTROINTESTINAL CONTENTS

This non-invasive procedure involves placing an animal in a stable electromagnetic field and measuring conductance of hydrated tissue of the animal. Lean tissue is much more conductive than lipid, due to the presence of water, sodium, and potassium.

Less conductive doesn't mean not conductive at all so I guess you'd still see some sensor activity on the screen.

Apart from water, the Ten20 paste has Potassium Chloride and Sodium Chloride in it and I wonder if those are added to improve conductivity?

It also contains methylparaben, which isn't great, so I would really welcome a healthy alternative. But given how much NO rental costs me per month I'd be keen to verify the conductivity of lard further to ensure return on that investment.

 

[nature]

Hi Ant!
Your remark about conductivity is pertinent.
This morning I made 3 sessions in a row: with saline water,another with lard, and the last one with glue. I din't notice a difference so as to cliks (interruptions) neither to curves. Does it mean that the conduction is equal? Not sure. We need a precise data before concluding. I don't know if there is a data on the NO3 program that shows if the conduction is good enough.
Is Choepel still here? He can give us a clue? I'm quoting him, in the hope he'll see a notification in his mailbox. His view will be great.

That looks like a really interesting read!

Generally, the brain follows the same natural laws of self regulation that all of nature does. So long as extrinsic factors such as human beings don't contaminate the system, the self regulation works well. This really would seem to be the same self regulation that David Bohm talks of in the implicate order (not that I am very familiar with that). But when the brain's self regulation is contaminated by factors such as stress, it starts to lose its ability to self regulate, or it can lose it almost completely (similar to blood sugar regulation and diabetes). NO is providing the information so that the brain can get back on track.

During my discussions with researchers Corinne Fournier and Pierre Bohn, they talked very much about the Power Law and distribution of electrical events in the brain and their magnitude. They explained how a well-optimised brain will come close to the typical power law graph (mathematicians will understand this far more than I do). One of their explanations about how NO works is that in a poorly regulated brain, there are too many large sized electrical events, and these are precisely the events being interrupted by NO. So NO returns the brain to its intrinsic and natural functioning, in line with power laws that have been observed in all natural systems.