New book by Madame de Salzmann: The Reality of Being

[RflctnOfU]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

anart, you still haven't answered my question. Have you read the Tales??

Kris

I've read them three times, Kris and listened to them as an audio book a few times as well.

Thank You. I'm just curious, which audio book version do you have? (I had the William Welch recording (what a GREAT voice that man had), but my ipod was stolen a few years back. I am considering aquiring and audiobook version again, but may give another reader a try.)

Kris

 

[anart]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

Thank You. I'm just curious, which audio book version do you have? (I had the William Welch recording (what a GREAT voice that man had), but my ipod was stolen a few years back. I am considering aquiring and audiobook version again, but may give another reader a try.)

Kris

Yes, that is the version I have as well.

 

[SadEyes]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I'm finding every paragraph to be dense with meaning. Is it possible that this book willl resonate with a certain 'type'?

I do not know the answer to your question. My subjective impression is that the book did not help "ground" the ideas presented in a real practical way. One recurring theme from the book was about feeling the lack of inner unity/attention/presence and "staying in front" of this lack, and thus suffer consciously. IMO, the book did not contribute significantly towards learning "how" to do this. I did not expect a "how to" manual but the book promised an experiential journey.

From the foreword of the book,

[quote author=Reality of Being]
Readers should be forewarned about certain unusual characteristics of this book. There is almost no description of either the reality of being or Gurdjieff's teaching on how to live it. Indeed, like him in his later years, Mme. de Salzmann consistently refused to discuss the teaching in terms of ideas. When asked a theoretical question, she would invariably demur, saying "You have to see for yourself". For her the idea alone, the concept without experience, was not enough - truth could not be thought. ... So instead of presenting a vision of the ultimate destination, this book is more like an account of an actual journey, including routes traveled and landmarks encountered along the way.

Jeanne de Salzmann had her own way of speaking, and not only her distinctive choice of words and capacity to shock. Listening to her, one had the impression that she knew precisely what she wished to say and how she would say it. This is confirmed by the notebooks, which show a remarkable clarity and consistency in her thinking over forty years.

That "recurring clarity and consistency" made the "account of an actual journey" seem less real at least for me. It seemed that the account was from someone who had figured it all out and was speaking from a lofty height without helpful tips about how to engage in the daily battle for the quest of presence. I could also be somewhat biased/influenced by my past experience with several eastern spiritual texts which seemed to be written from a similar vantage point.

Different people learn in different ways. It is quite possible that this book would help some people learn - as you have been experiencing. For me, Laura's writings (Amazing Grace, Wave) read like a real experiential journey which show "routes traveled and landmarks encountered" . Also for me, the psychology and cognitive science related studies and body-centric learning practices demonstrate the inner lack of unity and a way to struggle with it at a level I can relate to.

fwiw
[/quote]

That's very interesting Obyvatel, as I have found the opposite to be true. To me, it feels like she is trying to convey in words how, and where to feel certain sensations, and what they can lead to. I read the book once, and recently revisited it again these past 3 weeks and have found that I could (now) come much closer to understanding what she is describing. In fact, I've learned more from this book alone about the actual process of self-remembering and sustaining conscious attention on the 3 centers than from any other source.

I have actually been wondering if anyone else has read this book and found different qualities of sensation over time, and how they were able to spread and use those sensations to self-remember.

 

[Buddy]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

Actually SadEyes, it appears you and obyvatel are in agreement because the essential distinction is about learning vs doing and what you have revealed is what you have learned "about" the actual processes mentioned and that you are coming "close" to a certain understanding.

I don't mean to split hairs without reason, but it seems to me, Madame de Salzmann means to get you to do just that: not split hairs but learn certain subtle distinctions.

For example, Lillian Firestone once reported a dinner conversation led by Mdm de Salzmann where Mdm de Salzmann spoke of how we need an active attention. "We do not have it" she said, "Our attention is passive, weak, distracted by anything, by our appetites and desires. You see this chocolate in front of you," she said, holding up a small piece of candy, "and you don't know if you should have it, or why you should not have it. You need an attention that is quicker than your desires, quicker than your thoughts, an attention that is free, that can connect you with another level," and she moved one hand upward.

IMO, Mdm de Salzmann wants us to pay attention with as much attention as you can for lengthening periods until you become so familiar with every sensation and "wave" of energy transfer between parts of the body that you know your personal patterns well. At that point of familiarity, some of your attention will naturally be freed up and will be quite able to be "ahead" of those processes like the cow-catcher is "ahead" of the engine on an old train.

My thoughts, FWIW.

 

[Corvus]

The Reality of Being

I am just interested if anyone here has read this book by J.D.Salzmann or is familiar with it?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: The Reality of Being

I am just interested if anyone here has read this book by J.D.Salzmann or is familiar with it?

Moved your post to the existing discussion and updated the topic title (which didn't include the name of the book). I for one haven't read the book, but maybe some people who have read the book since this thread was last updated have some thoughts.

 

[realitybugll]

I'm familiar with this book. For me it was not very readable, and I recall there was divided impressions on this work here on this thread. I remember trying to pick up at many different chapters and being disappointed ultimately. and particularly because: Madame de Salzman was one of G.'s highly elevated associates, so I had high expecatations.
It's very philosophical and probably could be interesting if you can relate to it.

Recently I read
Idiots in Paris, which is a merging of journals by John G. Bennet and Elizebeth Bennet from 1949 although she wasn't "Bennet" yet at that point I'm pretty sure.
And also, A biography of Ethel Merston by a gurdjieff scholar, which mostly sources from Merston's own journals.
Both give very impressive accounts of De Salzman and convince me my dissapointment was just my inability to understand her writing... It's clear she communicated very effectively and memorably with both the Bennett's and with Merston.

I highly recommend each of the latter two... but not sure on Reality of being.

 

[furryfrog]

Re: The Reality of Being

I am just interested if anyone here has read this book by J.D.Salzmann or is familiar with it?

I have the book and have probably read it 3 times at least. I personally regard the book very highly and am very happy I ordered the book 4 years ago, it came at the perfect time for me. I would say I am familiar with it, though the last time I read it was likely over a year ago.

I assume by your post that you are wondering if you should obtain the book?

 

[Corvus]

furryfrog,

I bought it and read it, still reading smaller chapters almost every second day along with Earth Changes by Pierre, it is a real gold mine and unique piece that shines more practical details about G. Work with most of it being more theory oriented through more less subjective lenses, and describes different stages, experiences and obstacles in work.

The fact that she was "choosen" by G. means something, but just reading it with concentration changed the state of my being and there was deeper resonance. She accomplished deeper state with G. guidance, importance and help of group, because there is a threshold and limit of individual effort that is also important and hard.

Maybe "understanding" it has nothing with our everyday mind that is obssesive and controlling, and wants everything explained, running with millions thoughts a day you are not even conscious. How to understand unknown with known. What does it mean? Some things have to be experienced to be "understood".

It reveals the importance of desire, wish for truth and accepting the truth about yourself which itself can change state of being. Just through meditation in quiet with this desire of seeing brought small input of higher energy and different state, which is lost because of my passivity, lack of will, desire, satisfaction and everyday life activity.

Find it funny that some measure a piece not asking if there is something it can be measured with. As long you are satisfied with your life you will never change. In the state we are today, we are not worth a dime, dust and sand.

 

[furryfrog]

Corvinus,

The book for me came across very practical, as in Madame taking notes and writing in her journal about her own observations with regard to her work on herself. A lot of the paragraphs correspond to info in ISOTM and Gnosis, just looking at it from a different angle with different words.

Her writing about using the Breath to work on the centres I found very helpful, and new, along with her comments about working in the quiet. Good nuggets throughout, my copy of the book has three different colors of highlighter from the three times I have read it. I think I will give it another read again soon.

Maybe "understanding" it has nothing with our everyday mind that is obssesive and controlling, and wants everything explained, running with millions thoughts a day you are not even conscious. How to understand unknown with known. What does it mean? Some things have to be experienced to be "understood".

Are you asking for input on her comments about her work on her intellectual centre? How to understand unknown with known? Perhaps about paragraphs in Section 2, titled "A free thought" ?

 

[Corvus]

furryfrog,

I was not asking for input, think there is no real input for such things through words, just that concept of understanding is sometimes based on false premises, using ordinary self, everyday mind, which can not help in this case. Thanks for your view.

 

[SocietyoftheSpectacle]

just out of interest there is a freee pdf online,

just search here,
The-Reality-of-Being--The-Fourth-Way-of-Gurdjieff zippy pdf

 

[3DStudent]

just out of interest there is a freee pdf online,

just search here,
The-Reality-of-Being--The-Fourth-Way-of-Gurdjieff zippy pdf

Or you can support those who worked creating it, as it's still available on Amazon.

 

[SocietyoftheSpectacle]

just out of interest there is a freee pdf online,

just search here,
The-Reality-of-Being--The-Fourth-Way-of-Gurdjieff zippy pdf

Or you can support those who worked creating it, as it's still available on Amazon.

Madame de Salzmann (January 26, 1889, Reims – May 24, 1990,


Or you can support your local Book store by NOT using Amazon.

Ooops , sorry all the local bookshops have closed because of Amazon,
they use Online analytics to target consumers and unfair practices to put small buisness out of buisness,
and are said to be one of the worst employers around.

Supporting and using Amazon,
is like helping the new World order,
establish its Totally Centralised supply base.

For your information ,
I have seen with my own eyes
Shared, UNCOPYRIGHTED books Forced off the net ,
Only to appear later on Amazon.

Amazon is not your friend.
All decent people should in fact Eschew SLOTH ,
and Boycot amazon.

 

[munaychasumaq]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I'm a bit skeptical about de Salzmann, too. Besides Henderson's book, there are other references, for example in Beekman Taylor's "Gurdjieff's America". After Gurdjieff died, she did a few things that in my mind were quite dubious. First of all, she put a call out to as many students of G as possible to collect notes and transcripts of his talks, as well as book manuscripts. Once they were in the Gurdjieff Foundation's possession, she had them all locked away. No one that is not 'up there' in the hierarchy of the group has access to these. Thus, there are no complete copies of Gurdjieff's manuscript of "Meetings with Remarkable Men". All that we have is the published version, which has been edited. "Life Is Real" has also been edited, but luckily Solita Solano was smart enough to leave all her notes and papers (which included a complete MS of "Life Is Real") to the Library of Congress, ensuring they were in the public domain. A comparison of the MS to the published version shows some complete changes of meaning (Henderson documents a few of these in his book) in certain passages. So we have no real way of knowing which meanings were changed in "Meetings". She also started teaching the movements only in fragments, keeping the complete versions secret.

It's my understanding that Gurdjieff made that her prerogative when he put her in charge of when (and whether) his unpublished works were published. Considering G's take on knowledge and there being only a certain amount that can't be spread out to everyone, I think it rather makes sense that she tried to limit distribution of random people's notes about meetings with G. One thing that is beyond doubt is that very few people could have taken accurate notes and written accurately about G's words and meanings during meetings since, as we know, people bend everything to their own personal understanding. I think that is why G made the comment about Ouspensky's memory being so good after reading ISOTM - most people's memories are not, but Ouspensky had a remarkable intellectual capacity, despite his lacking in other areas. Quite frankly, it sounds like deSalzmann was trying to do what she could do to keep the information 'pure' and as unadulterated as possible, though, obviously any efforts along those lines are ultimately doomed to fail, since the nature of this reality is entropic and people will do what people will do.

Yes, I can see her motivations. But ironically, by trying to keep the information 'pure' and unadulterated, she ended up adulterating the work she DID publish... Basic entropy, and exactly as Gurdjieff predicted in his works.

Good to know it.Thanks for the info.