New documentary: fishead

yes except of few minor things it is a pretty good movie to spread the word !

some points that make this movie pretty good IMO:

- this famous guy Peter Coyote who talks from the perspective of somebody new to this phenomenon
- the survey of ordinary people on the street about what they know about Psychopaths
- experts in this field explaining psychopathy
- people can be affected by other people even if they don't have direct contact with the source
- the notion that comes through that all is effected by psychopaths and that they rise to the top and effect all
- the notion that comes through that Ponorology leads to societys that are more and more psychopathic
and that this is what is happening in this time on a global scale
- the notion that comes through that we need to do something about this and a solution is to network with good people
 
The guy, Misha, who sent me the password to view this movie asked for my feedback. I'm posting the email I'm sending him here as a review.

Misha,

First of all, thank you for giving me a password to view your movie. It is a well produced documentary and I think the message is vital considering the state of our world today. I hope many people get the opportunity to see Fishhead in the future.

Below are some of the thoughts I had as I was watching the movie. I don't consider myself to be a professional expert in psychopathy or even psychology, but I have read a number of books in this area. I'm very familiar with Hare and Babiak's work. I've also been aware of the dangers of anti-depressants for a long time and some of the bizarre effects they have on the brain, including a dulling of empathy as you guys mentioned. It is interesting how you guys put these two pieces together.

First of all, the difference between the terminology of psychopath and sociopath might be more of semantics than something that has a real underlying distinction. This has come up a number of times in discussion and I believe there is still a lot of debate within the community of psychologists who work in this area as to just exactly what these terms should mean. I think you guys did a good job of boiling it down to the idea that this is basically a lack of conscience or empathy regardless of what you call it, and this can exhibit itself in a variety of forms. Psychopaths, sociopaths, etc. have a variety of masks that they wear and they may only lower the mask in a certain part of their life and only in a certain way. The corporate psychopath obviously has much more personal restraint than many of the criminal psychopaths that Hare studied. There are probably other psychopaths that only drop their mask around their wives or children, and probably many more that only operate in certain spheres of society. In addition, some might have certain personality disorders that go along with their lack of empathy; some psychopaths could lean towards being schizoidal, paranoid, etc. I think the thing to realize is that there is still a large diversity even within this narrow segment of the population.

Also, I suspect that the number of psychopaths in the general population might be close to 6% rather than the 1% that Hare quotes. Hare's work, if I remember correctly, was mostly done in prison institutions and so his psychopathy checklist is mostly geared toward detecting criminal psychopathy and not so much the 'garden variety' psychopath which some lay researchers have tried to study. In other words, he may be setting the threshold in his checklist too high in some cases. I think his work with Babiak on the "corporate psychopath" comes closer to the meat of the issue: that is, psychopaths are basically everywhere and in many forms.

A few authors you might want to check out (if you already haven't) are Sandra Brown, who has done studies on women victims of psychopaths and Martha Stout, who's work, in my opinion, compliments that of Hare's. Another author would be the late Andrew M. Lobaczewski who wrote a book titled Political Ponerology which describes much of the macro-social effects of psychopathy which you guys touched on in Fishhead. I think if you can get through the technical jagon in his book you'd find his writings highly enlightening. He also came out of the Cold War era from Poland and had survived under the brutal regimes of first Hitler and then Stalin. You don't get a better set of conditions for studying psychopathy on a macro scale than those in 20th Century Poland, I'm afraid.

I was fascinated to hear about Hare's new psychopathy study on corporate executives. I think it's interesting that he found that their scores tended towards the high side, but that percentage-wise they weren't that different than the rest of the population. Again, I think there may be better tools for evaluating psychopathy in different areas of society than his original checklist. He didn't go into details about the study in the video, however, so I'm not sure how he arrived at his conclusions.

Like I said, I thought it was interesting how you guys related the problem of anti-depressants to psychopathy. The expression "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" comes to mind. I think it's good for people to hear that using these powerful medications is really the "join 'em" part and, oh by the way, these are the people you're joining: psychopaths!

I also liked how you tried to grok with the question of "what to do about the psychopath problem?" This has been an ongoing question in the groups I partake in and it seems that there is no simple, easy solution. One thing to keep in mind, which I don't believe was mentioned in Fishead, is that these psychopaths can't stand the light of day - they will do anything to prevent from being exposed for what they are (even to the point of corrupting or diverting serious research attempts to study them). Kind of like the vampire legend, in other words. Exposing psychopaths in power and even those at the lower level, so people have a name to call what they're seeing, I believe does a great service to the large majority of humanity. If only it was taught at a young age to children that there is a predator in our midsts; we have no way of visually detecting them, but here are the signs to watch out for... something along those lines. I think movies like yours and some others I've seen recently on this subject could potentially begin this process of exposure. Future research efforts should be directed at finding ways to detect these individuals and increase the awareness of the dangers they pose for society.

I liked how you broached the topic of social networks and how these operate. I have no doubt that these will play a role in helping people understand the extent to which psychopathy permeates our world. I'm not so sure it's worthwhile helping people to feel "happy" as the authors you quoted suggest. After all, the psychopaths running the show want us to be comfortable numb with happy pills, they don't want us to feel that subconscious fear that there is a real predator out there (i.e. them). Emotions such as anger, repulsion, sadness can be great motivators for change too, if utilized. No wonder they want to flat-line everybody's emotional range with anti-depressants! The psychopaths like being on top of the heap while the rest of society rots away without a peep.

I think what's important about the whole social networking concept is spreading the truth, even when the truth makes people feel uncomfortable. The more people align with the truth and understand it vicereally, the sooner positive change can come about. We've believed in the lies told to us by psychopaths for centuries, probably millennia now, and the only way we're going to turn this ship around is if we admit that everything we've ever learned about human nature is wrong. Humans are not intrinsictly evil, psychopaths are evil and they are trying to force their pathological world view on the rest of us (and in many cases succeeding).

Anyways, I did enjoy your movie and I will be sharing it with others. Keep up the good work and hopefully you guys can expand on these topics in the future.

Sincerely,
Ryan
 
Well after seeing the documentary, these are my thoughts.

This is a really well made documentary, the production quality is top notch. It is entertaining and captures and keeps ones attention for the whole duration, it goes without saying that this makes it easier to take the message.

The documentary is in 2 parts. The first part, they explain psychopathy and sociopathy. The second they talk about a solution.
The first part I give 10/10 but the second only 5/10. My problem with the second part is that it is not convincing, plain and simple. Essentially they are saying, treat people nicely and the effect will spread. Well this answer is to simple and doesn't take into account, different cultures, religions, social systems and even personality types just to name afew. What might be nice to one person might be horrible to another. Also they don't look at why psychopathic traits exist, limited resources, highly competitive environment, inequality, lack of understanding etc, these are problems with deep roots. Also, towards the end I got lost on what the documentary was about, at the beginning and throughout the first part, one is getting a simple easy to understand education on psychopathy but then it changes into something not that well defined or well explained, IN MY OPINION. The whole network thing to me sounded abit like a documentary I watched on horizon a couple of years back talking about this idea of six degrees of separation.

Overall I give the whole documentary 7.5/10.

EDIT:
The part about anti-depressants seemed out of place. During the time of hitler or stalin, no one was taking anti-depressants yet they got over-run by a psychopathic system. Actually if one thought about it critically, the documentary's glitzy production masks a lack of knowledge of the actual problem, as opposed to how it looks like. Metaphor, I can say how a plant looks like, its characteristics but it is another thing to know what its role is in the wider system in which it exists.
 
Just finished watching the documentary and I have to say it's really good, already shared it on my facebook, and I'm glad I did.

I think its a good starter point for a lot of people that have no clue about psychopathy.
 
I think it's a great intro. Does it cover everything? No. Does it cover what it does cover completely and thoroughly? Not really. What it does - and very well - is introduce the concept of the problem, the ramifications of the problem and the future of where this problem will take us in a non-threatening and engaging way. It also plants the idea that there are more of us than them - an organized herd can be a dangerous thing. It's an idea that is powerful and, who knows, maybe it will spark something in more than a few people.

All in all and despite the holes, I'd say it's really quite worth sharing with anyone in your life who is clueless about psychopaths in power. Heck, people have to start somewhere.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
And the 'performing philosopher' guy was kind of a moron. He said, essentially, "The leaders of our world aren't psychopaths. I know these people and they're not." :barf:

Just wanted to add that I completely agree on that part - that guy was a notably discordant note. Not really sure why they included him. He was a moron.
 
luke wilson said:
Well after seeing the documentary, these are my thoughts.

This is a really well made documentary, the production quality is top notch. It is entertaining and captures and keeps ones attention for the whole duration, it goes without saying that this makes it easier to take the message.

I just watched it, and I agree with you. As others said, it's a great psychopathy-101 course for the populace.

lw said:
The documentary is in 2 parts. The first part, they explain psychopathy and sociopathy. The second they talk about a solution.
The first part I give 10/10 but the second only 5/10. My problem with the second part is that it is not convincing, plain and simple. Essentially they are saying, treat people nicely and the effect will spread. Well this answer is to simple and doesn't take into account, different cultures, religions, social systems and even personality types just to name afew. What might be nice to one person might be horrible to another. Also they don't look at why psychopathic traits exist, limited resources, highly competitive environment, inequality, lack of understanding etc, these are problems with deep roots. Also, towards the end I got lost on what the documentary was about, at the beginning and throughout the first part, one is getting a simple easy to understand education on psychopathy but then it changes into something not that well defined or well explained, IN MY OPINION. The whole network thing to me sounded abit like a documentary I watched on horizon a couple of years back talking about this idea of six degrees of separation.

Actually, I liked the social networking part of it, and the solution to the problem. What I got out of it is that if we - non-psychopathic people - can create an environment of social networks among ourselves based on moral goodness, then the psychopathic behavior will stand out as a fly in the milk, and more people will be able to point it out and say: hey, that's not good, I don't agree with it. Because one of the problems today is that psychopaths can hide within a society that's psychopathic itself. Competition, being number one and caring for number one, the means justify the end, etc, are all part of the society we live in. Nobody can condemn them because we were taught we should try to emulate them if we are to not be failures in our professions, lives, etc. But if we start by not accepting these as normal and be the first to say: "hey, that's not cool dude/dudette", we might help one person in our immediate environment think for themselves: "hmm, that rings true for me too", and then next time this person will say something similar and influence one person in their environment, and so on. Social proof and all. For us in this forum, this might be a common sense thing, since we live it with each other, but for the average person out there, it might be a big revelation to hear this. It's a great food for thought, if nothing else. OSIT.

lw said:

EDIT:
The part about anti-depressants seemed out of place. During the time of hitler or stalin, no one was taking anti-depressants yet they got over-run by a psychopathic system.

I think that the discussion on anti-depressants fit well with the overall theme, and shows how these days there are more advanced ways than in the past to stupify people to accept whatever from the psychopaths on top.

lw said:
Actually if one thought about it critically, the documentary's glitzy production masks a lack of knowledge of the actual problem, as opposed to how it looks like. Metaphor, I can say how a plant looks like, its characteristics but it is another thing to know what its role is in the wider system in which it exists.

I agree that it could be better, that it lacked all the information on ponerology, its genesis and expansion, or even more info about the everyday psychopath. I also felt that it lacked the information on work on self, how to de-ponerise ourselves so that we can actually create an environment of morality based on our conscience. But overall, I felt that it gave a good idea of what the problem is, how it affects all of us, and our own responsibility in this mess. I particularly liked what the last president of Czechoslovakia had to say from his own experience. Perhaps because he is a poet, it helped him say it well :) But these are just my thoughts.
 
anart said:
Approaching Infinity said:
And the 'performing philosopher' guy was kind of a moron. He said, essentially, "The leaders of our world aren't psychopaths. I know these people and they're not." :barf:

Just wanted to add that I completely agree on that part - that guy was a notably discordant note. Not really sure why they included him. He was a moron.

I third that, he was sitting on the fire place, doing a very funny pose, just ridiculous!
 
I just finished watching the movie. Very well filmed, made it enjoyable to view.

Overall, it provides a good basic introduction to the subject. May help many understand the horrors that we see in the world and our personal lives each day.

We, here, all know how vital networking is. But I not sure that simply spreading the "goodness" will have much effect in this case. Surely, it will make our own lives and those around us better. But clear knowledge and taking action are what is needed. Actions in the form of cleaning ourselves first. Dealing with and releasing traumas that have accumulated in us just living in this pathological environment. Cleaning our bodies and minds of the poisons that we have absorbed.

Most are so mechanical in their behavior that even after viewing the film they will continue as they have been. But perhaps in a few it will be just what is needed. A few heroes may come forth. As Havel states, if we can see great change in our times it would be welcome. But even if we begin change that comes to fruition after us it will be worth all our efforts.

It is likely too late for any great change to occur before great calamity. But the circumstances are what they are. As Anart said people have to start somewhere.

Mac
 
anart said:
Approaching Infinity said:
And the 'performing philosopher' guy was kind of a moron. He said, essentially, "The leaders of our world aren't psychopaths. I know these people and they're not." :barf:

Just wanted to add that I completely agree on that part - that guy was a notably discordant note. Not really sure why they included him. He was a moron.

Yeah, I definitely agree. That guy should have been removed from the final cut.
 
RyanX said:
anart said:
Approaching Infinity said:
And the 'performing philosopher' guy was kind of a moron. He said, essentially, "The leaders of our world aren't psychopaths. I know these people and they're not." :barf:

Just wanted to add that I completely agree on that part - that guy was a notably discordant note. Not really sure why they included him. He was a moron.

Yeah, I definitely agree. That guy should have been removed from the final cut.

Perhaps he was included to indicate the depth of the problem and to suggest that the hierarchy has many with seemingly "inside" knowledge that serve as defenders.

Useful idiots, of course. But maybe this was a warning by the film makers about what to expect.

Mac
 
After spending more time thinking about it, It is indeed the sort of documentary that has the potential to reach a wide audience. I was even thinking it looked like the type of documentary that could be shown on a channel like channel 4 in britain. It is a good place to start. Easy, simple and non-provocative. Hopefully it gets people talking abit like the whole 9/11 truth movement. People might not be able to do much about it but atleast it'll be out in the open.

alana said:
lw said:
I think that the discussion on anti-depressants fit well with the overall theme, and shows how these days there are more advanced ways than in the past to stupify people to accept whatever from the psychopaths on top.

I think that the discussion on anti-depressants fit well with the overall theme, and shows how these days there are more advanced ways than in the past to stupify people to accept whatever from the psychopaths on top.

I totally agree, one can add modern education, food, modern politics, capitalism, modern media into that pile aswell. It's all connected and built to order for the psychopath and his traits. To go even deeper, you could add religion and dare I say, modern science. It is really a well-integrated system, very tightly and compactly built.
 
luke wilson said:
Essentially they are saying, treat people nicely and the effect will spread

While this may be a way to go about 'changing the world' if it were possible to get people to do it, it seems to me that this analogy of people, even strangers, affecting others would be best used to describe the process of ponerization. It's quite possible that the psychopaths in any given society 'spread the pain', in this way through their treatment and traumatization of others, which leads other non-psychopaths to act in similar ways.
 
[quote author=Perceval ]

While this may be a way to go about 'changing the world' if it were possible to get people to do it, it seems to me that this analogy of people, even strangers, affecting others would be best used to describe the process of ponerization. It's quite possible that the psychopaths in any given society 'spread the pain', in this way through their treatment and traumatization of others, which leads other non-psychopaths to act in similar ways.
[/quote]

Indeed, and is not our past ripe with people acting in similar ways, the osmosis affect. Like a heard, people consciously follow around the bull, perhaps questioning the direction, but are compelled to do and say the most dastardly things on behalf of these others; rationalizing their actions in the most bizarre ways.
 
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