Nigel Kerner - Gray Aliens and the Harvesting of Souls

[rofo6850]

Laura, I was preparing and answer when you posted yours.

It is interesting, it is maybe the only way we could explain human violence to peer's without appealing to metaphysical concepts. But the reason become unknown, that's why I have said maybe this issues could not be appropriated to one species or other, to Neanderthals or CroMagnon.

I am not saying violence is privative of Caucasians, what I am saying is that for some reason, aryans managed to develop a sophisticated intelect and tools to manipulate and control materiality, what indeed astronomically multiplicated their reach and the danger for others. This creativity, undeniable, as everything in this world, is a two edged sword. This is something very important that should not be overlooked. Ironically, there was a boost in CroMagnon intellect, but only there, it doesn't seem to be extensive to other areas, human nature still remains untouched.

I have read extensively your essays. I have understood you endorse a kind of idyllic scenery where all that is good and evoluted came from the north, from the purported Hiperboreans. You opposes clearly all aryans groups to a similarly purported evilness coming from Middle East, from other ratial groups, specially semitic.

In your model aryans came to be the promotors of evolution, nobility and values. Semitic groups carry the insane drive to insane religions that threaten the world. It is not I am defending my group, I am not of semitic origins.

Well, reality is a bit more complex, the threat is not only religious, the ominous killing machine that came from the Western civilization was no religious at all, it is far more dangerous, it controls matter and the material process and has successfully constructed a world of machines, holding a power impossible to counteract over less technically evolved people.

This is the crux of my worries, this is very important and should never be negated or forgetted by any means. That's why I posted some of Kerner ideas.

 

[rofo6850]

Patience

Two facts to consider:

1) The abduction phenomena seems to restrict to aryan groups, something admitted by Laura herself http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=16669.15

2) Nearly all the genocides and butchery's can be traced to show an aryan perpetrator, at least in the known history (including what you say about indigenous Europeans and Romans)

How can you possibly invert this facts?.

Repeating myself:

I am not saying violence is privative of Caucasians, what I am saying is that for some reason, aryans managed to develop a sophisticated intelect and tools to manipulate and control materiality, what indeed astronomically multiplicated their reach and the danger for others. This creativity, undeniable, as everything in this world, is a two edged sword. This is something very important that should not be overlooked. Ironically, there was a boost in CroMagnon intellect, but only there, it doesn't seem to be extensive to other areas, human nature still remains untouched.

You have very few latin american members. They had not said a word, I do not know why.

Corto, it is not me who has made this process of latin american vs caucasian, it is you, and not precisely latin american, but semitic, I am only trying to make it evident. I have no semitic origins, it is not about defending my own ethnia.

It seems that while you denounce the exploitation of the masses by the psychopathic leaders, you continue endorsing the very basic philosophy and idiosyncrasy that caused and continue causing this state of affairs.

Patience said:

You know... You could have just said something like (probably in its own thread though), "Guys... I am just not buying this whole characterization of the neanderthals that we are building." Then you probably could have started a rather stimulating discussion though it might have required you to read some of what Laura is reading. Or... "Guys... I have a misgiving that our focus on psychopathy could give Caucasians an excuse to sweep under the rug all the damage they have done to indigenous cultures."

I tried to do this, if you could find again my removed posts you could verify it. You are saying exactly what I tried to expose, not only as my opinion, but citing references
and others research.

Patience you say:

I have a misgiving that our focus on psychopathy could give Caucasians an excuse to sweep under the rug all the damage they have done to indigenous cultures.

I couldn't have said it better, keep in mind English is not my mother language.

It is not an accusation, I am only acting as a kind of devil advocate, pointing out what I can see as a blind spot. All of us commit mistakes, this issues are complex.

Sure you know of Stanley Milgram's experiment. There you can find the chilling truth about human nature, it is clearly exposed that the ruthlessness required by a Nazi officer to pour Zyklon-B gas into a gas chamber is actually present in many ordinary people normally regarded by themselves and others as decent human beings, it is terrifying to check you do not have to be a sadistic or deranged to put people into gas chambers. You just have to be human.

Psychopathy is not enough to explain this state of affairs, the problem lies in human nature and is displayed everytime, by everyone and everywhere. For some reasons normal people, not psychopats, are always drawn in this process and end being unconscious perpetrators.

While denouncing psychopathic leaders we sustain, each of one, this state of affairs.

What if we are never able to leave this place?, not until we prove ourselves capable of turning it into something different? what if what is expected of us is to transform this world of tears and suffering in something better? just thoughts, I do not know.

Then what should be all be doing? breathing? meditating? or getting our clothes dirty trying to help the victims and correct what is done wrong. This is no accusation, I have proved many paths, including breathing and meditating, but somehow they left me empty. It is enough to look around me to make all crumble down.

As I said this is not an accusation, it is an observation, which, I would like to, may serve to think about it, to reflect.

Corto, your commentaries are not answerable. It doesn't matter who I am, today I am saying this, maybe tomorrow someone else would do. What matters are the ideas, thoughts, not people. People can die, become mad, change their minds. It is the message what matters. Sure you could accuse me of being captured by my predator minds, or being directly the predator, for me it has few or any meaning.

 

[rofo6850]

Ana said:

Have you clean your machine as to being able to have contact with your higher self?
While you do not do it remember that the material you talk about is the gift of someones being in this case from Laura.

You seem to underestimate the hard and intense internal working that this represents, maybe because this is something you have not yet begun to do?

Not so, read my previous posts in this thread and you will check my sincere expression of gratitude to Laura. She has the equipment and the kindness to handle to everyone. But knowledge has no property, it is impersonal and do not belong to anyone.

I have not the kind of access Laura has to unconscious realms, however I have some, everyone of us has. I ask and receive answers, sometimes soon, sometimes later, sometimes awake as a thought or as an abstraction and sometimes dreaming, with all the adornments of dreams, symbolic and pictorial information.

My observations and critics came from there, as every inspiration and creativity we all have.

 

[Z...]

Corto, your commentaries are not answerable. It doesn't matter who I am, today I am saying this, maybe tomorrow someone else would do. What matters are the ideas, thoughts, not people. People can die, become mad, change their minds. It is the message what matters. Sure you could accuse me of being captured by my predator minds, or being directly the predator, for me it has few or any meaning.

The thing is - after all this discourse I don't have a clue what your idea is.

You've been going back and forth, first it started with trying to prove that Kerner got it right and then it ended with accusation of antisemitism and glorification of Aryan race. Such outcome is very interesting paradox given the essence of the whole idea which is in a nutshell - Cromagnon mixed with neanderthals and this had implications to the entire human population as we know it today, regardless of race.

But it seems your cup is not just full but over-spilling and in such state you will never understand neither the spirit of true networking we are trying to promote on this forum nor Work one is required to do in order to clean their machine.

So I rest my case

 

[rofo6850]

Corto, read again my posts, it is clear.

You seem to see everything in terms of being right or wrong, accusations, proofs, defenses; my message is clear and written. I do not live under that standards, nobody is completely right nor wrong, except in very few cases that are sure inexcusable (in the wrong side).

Patience

So that is an extremely brief summation that missed a heck of a lot of information... At the point where you set your "trap," there was a call for information from academia on neanderthals. Instead of going along with the spirit of the thread, you acted like you were innocently adding something to the discussion (which as we have already said was irrelevant to the discussion) when really you were waiting for a certain reaction. Since you were not actually trying to add information to the thread but instead where waiting for a certain reaction, you were acting manipulatively. Then when you get your own thread you are more or less refusing to discuss Kerner. You are acting like a child who says, "If I can't have what I want on MY terms, then I don't want it at all." It is basically the "Now I am going to go eat worms and die" routine.

I will answer as a sign of respect, in my culture is so.

I understand what you say and what Laura wanted to do. If we play with "what if's", well what if, instead of removing my posts I were told the following:

"Please let me complete my presentation and then you can make your commentaries or objections", it is what I would have liked to receive, maybe a cultural difference.

There was no "trap" on my side, only in your mind.

Excuse me if I didn't get in time the spirit of the thread.

I didn't want a thread on my own, if I would, I would post it myself, I already said this to Laura in the original thread.

You are acting like a child who says, "If I can't have what I want on MY terms, then I don't want it at all." It is basically the "Now I am going to go eat worms and die" routine.

As a psychological assessment it is indeed creative, sadly it has nothing to do with my real intentions and motivations.

Patience

So... Are you going to pack up your toys and go home? Or are you going to learn something?

I have already answered this. Learning is a bidireccional process, there is no good in holding such a stance.

 

[Laura]

I am not saying violence is privative of Caucasians, what I am saying is that for some reason, aryans managed to develop a sophisticated intelect and tools to manipulate and control materiality, what indeed astronomically multiplicated their reach and the danger for others.

And, as the genetics studies show, caucasians - Europeans, to be precise - are the only modern type humans to have mixed with Neanderthal. That should give us pause to think.

This creativity, undeniable, as everything in this world, is a two edged sword. This is something very important that should not be overlooked. Ironically, there was a boost in CroMagnon intellect, but only there, it doesn't seem to be extensive to other areas, human nature still remains untouched.

That's exactly the point. The question is, what is "human nature" really? Are we talking about man as an animal, his animal nature, or are we talking about his truly human nature: his ability to think symbolically and use symbols and language and whatever may lie behind that?

If we are talking about the former, then we are talking about the evidential Neanderthal nature. If we are talking about the latter, then we don't have much of a clue as to what we are talking about since all of the experts are at a loss to explain the shift.

I have read extensively your essays. I have understood you endorse a kind of idyllic scenery where all that is good and evoluted came from the north, from the purported Hiperboreans. You opposes clearly all aryans groups to a similarly purported evilness coming from Middle East, from other ratial groups, specially semitic.

Actually, not that simple. As the Cs have pointed out, being "Aryan" can be either very, very good, or very, very evil and everything in between. And, since all human types are simply combinations of Aryan (read Orion) genetics, there's not that much difference.

It strikes me that you have some kind of complex about this, a chip on your shoulder, and this makes it difficult for you to really grok what I have been saying past or present. For example, I have written in a number of places that the studies show that Africans are genetically closer to Europeans than either are to Asians.

In your model aryans came to be the promotors of evolution, nobility and values.

Not "Aryans" specifically, but peoples in the North, for the most part. And that is based on the raw evidence.

Semitic groups carry the insane drive to insane religions that threaten the world. It is not I am defending my group, I am not of semitic origins.

Again, that is based on the evidence.

Well, reality is a bit more complex, the threat is not only religious, the ominous killing machine that came from the Western civilization was no religious at all,

Here you are just plain wrong. It has always and ever been religious. Even in the guise of science, it is religious. It is only via religion that governments are able to control masses of people and to get them to sacrifice themselves to an ideal, to do the killing for the pathologicals.

And right there you have a clue. As William Bramley noted in The Gods of Eden, when we consider history, we can clearly see that the drive of human beings to have peace is as strong, if not stronger, than the drive to have war. But, when the issue of war is examined, one realizes that, most often, the "trigger" for war and related "inhumanity to man" is that the drive for spiritual freedom is twisted by manipulation. It's easy to look back on history and see where this or that group was "misled" in their beliefs and thereby fell into errors of thinking that led to the perpetration of unspeakable horrors. We can point to the genocide advocated by the God of the Hebrews, or the religious-zeal-run-amok of the Catholic church when it instituted the Inquisition. We can see the twisted version of the "genetic superman" that led to the holocaust. But in the end, it is normal, decent people being manipulated by pathologicals, and the hot-spot of that pathology is evidently in Eastern Africa as demonstrated graphically in the book "Saharasia."

Human beings of the "higher sort", whether white, black, red or yellow, have a sort of "built in drive" for spiritual knowledge. And over and over again we can see that this drive is what is being manipulated and their external appearances are highlighted instead of psychological differences which are much harder to see.

When genuine spiritual knowledge is distorted while, at the same time, the inner desire for "salvation" is constantly being stimulated by various religious teachings, a great many people can be led into doing a lot of cruel and stupid things. The perceived need to "save souls" is a prime example of how such a seeming positive polarization can be suddenly shifted to do the exact opposite of what the religious teachings explicate. And this is an important point to remember!

A problem is defined in terms of two categories: objects and operations. The objects are the things that the problem-solver has to manipulate. They may be people, things, or situations. The operations are the steps by which object A is transformed into object B. Solving a problem is a process of understanding the sequence of transformation. To do this, we try to understand the differences between object A and objective B. These understandings lead us to the choice of operations. Those operations which will add to the transformation process will be retained, those which will diminish the process will be eliminated.

I believe that we can come to some understanding of our "reality problem" in this way. With a broad historical perspective, careful examination of the cycles and events within the cycles, we can SEE the fingerprints of these elusive "controllers" of our reality - pathological hybrids. We can see ordinary human beings as the "objects," and the events of history as the "operations." When we observe these things, the events of history and how they have affected humanity, and where humanity is today as opposed to "yesterday," we begin to have a clue that we certainly are "not in Kansas anymore!"

What is even more interesting is that we come across some of those very strange periods in history where a great darkness descends and before this darkness mankind was going in one direction, and after this period, he is going in an altogether different direction. You probe into these periods, and you discover that very strange things were going on, pathology was rampant, and these are periods where psychopaths easily rise to the top. Not only that, you discover that a seemingly concerted effort was made afterward to assure that documentation of the period was destroyed to as great an extent as possible. In other words, pathology was active on a global scale, and what they did, they definitely did not want it made public! Two of these periods, within the historical period, really stand out. The first is the time in which the "national history" of the Jews was supposedly in full development. The second is the period of the transition from paganism to Christianity. Both of these periods are called "Dark Ages." Maybe that should give us pause! The idea that ordinary human beings are being manipulated and controlled by pathologicals then becomes something we can see ourselves if we exert the effort and care to LOOK.

The point of all this is that it seems that the only criteria we may have by which to judge any phenomenon is the fruit it bears, since it is possible for things to be represented as positive and not be so, in fact. But in this case, the "fruit" can only be seen in a very broad historical perspective.

For a very long time, Europe was quiet and withdrawn - the Celts and other "Barbarians" wanted nothing to do with the rest of the world. It was the last bastion of the hunter-gatherer existence in the West. The agricultural revolution was thousands of years old before it finally overtook Europe. Even after that, the pathology spread only slowly. Europeans resisted all incursions until Caesar and his gang - with their intimations of immortality/superiority - came to export democracy to the Gauls, Celts and Britons. (and others). After that, things went downhill fast.

It just so happens that psychopathy is said to exist in any general population at exactly the same proportion as Neanderthal genetics are said to exist in same. Obviously, a Neanderthal/modern human type of psychopathy is not the only one that can - or does - exist. But I think we can agree that the results are very, very bad for the rest of the world.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

Patience

Two facts to consider:

1) The abduction phenomena seems to restrict to aryan groups, something admitted by Laura herself http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=16669.15

2) Nearly all the genocides and butchery's can be traced to show an aryan perpetrator, at least in the known history (including what you say about indigenous Europeans and Romans)

How can you possibly invert this facts?.

My gosh... You talk like we have not thought of this stuff before or something. For someone who has claimed to have read a great deal of Laura's work to not be able to sort some of this out for his or herself is highly indicative to me. It is indicative of the issues that are addressed by rigorous internal work. And not just any kind of work... But the kind that produces results...

(1) If you decide to consider the possiblity that a significant percentage of abduction phenomenon has a hyper-dimensional, even paranormal, aspect to it as Laura, Jacques Vallee, et John Keel hypothesize and is not simply a nuts-n-bolts aliens-in-spaceships-from-another-planet-doing-weird-experiments type of thing , then similarities between abduction phenomenon and other paranormal phenomenon emerge. In short, the phenomenon morphs with respect to the culture it is interacting with. A quick poke around google and wikipedia gives us

h_t_t_p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duende_%28mythology%29

where we see references to fairy mythologies in Europe, The Phillipines, Japan, Some Southern Pacific Islands, Central America, the North American Southwest, Belize, and in some African-Caribbean cultures. This is hardly a solid argument, but by considering the hyper-dimensional aspect of these phenomenon and the works of those who have researched it, I can make an argument in less than 5 minutes that it is an international phenomenon.

(2) Yes. It is clear. White people have done and are still doing a lot of horrible stuff. We want to know why and how to stop it instead of this constant cycle of revolutions that become the next bad boss.

Again, it seems your basic argument is against using psychopathy to explain all of this. Again... In PP, the mechanism of how psychopaths get regular people to sign onto awful things is well explained. It is even explained why regular humans find it so hard to digest the idea of a sub-section of humanity having fundamentally motivational factors and preying thus on the rest of us. Until you can refute the really solid arguments in that book, you can not convince us that psychopathy is not a primary driving factor in the landscape of the modern world.

As for us making the information accessible to you, well... That is the pickle. It is currently an extremely obscure subject, filled to the brim with misinformation and innately disturbing to humans on top of that. But really... Until you read PP, I suggest wasting no more time on this forum trying to discuss psychopathy. We hope to make this information more accessible and digestible, but until then, the only way is to go to the source.

Now as to why the armies of the controllers have so often been of European descent... That is an interesting question. As Laura says... Why??? This does not however invalidate our hypothesis regarding psychopathy. These case studies strengthen it in fact.

 

[Argonaut]

Sure you know of Stanley Milgram's experiment. There you can find the chilling truth about human nature, it is clearly exposed that the ruthlessness required by a Nazi officer to pour Zyklon-B gas into a gas chamber is actually present in many ordinary people normally regarded by themselves and others as decent human beings, it is terrifying to check you do not have to be a sadistic or deranged to put people into gas chambers. You just have to be human.

Psychopathy is not enough to explain this state of affairs, the problem lies in human nature and is displayed everytime, by everyone and everywhere. For some reasons normal people, not psychopats, are always drawn in this process and end being unconscious perpetrators.

While denouncing psychopathic leaders we sustain, each of one, this state of affairs.

No, psychopathy is not enough to explain it. The other part of the equation is that all of humanity is asleep. If you are familiar with Laura's writings, you should be at least somewhat acquainted with G. I. Gurdjieff and principles of the Fourth Way. Gurdjieff talks about the very problem you brought up. Just one example, from In Search of the Miraculous:

People are machines. Machines have to be blind and unconscious, they cannot be otherwise, and all their actions have to correspond to their nature. Everything happens. No one does anything. 'Progress' and 'civilization,' in the real meaning of these words, can appear only as the result of conscious efforts. They cannot appear as the result of unconscious mechanical actions. And what conscious effort can there be in machines? And if one machine is unconscious, then a hundred machines are unconscious, and so are a thousand machines, or a hundred thousand, or a million. And the unconscious activity of a million machines must necessarily result in destruction and extermination. It is precisely in unconscious involuntary manifestations that all evil lies. You do not yet understand and cannot imagine all the results of this evil. But the time will come when you will understand.

Struggling to awaken from this sleep is a huge part of the work we do in this forum. We are all asleep to some degree, and we all act as unconscious machines. We lie to ourselves all the time about what we're doing, thinking, and feeling, as well as what motivates us. Nobody's exempt from this - not even you. And sometimes it takes another person to act as our "mirror" and show us what we're really doing.

Then what should be all be doing? breathing? meditating? or getting our clothes dirty trying to help the victims and correct what is done wrong.

Why not all of the above? The breathing and meditation program can be a great help to many people. The problems of this world result from imprisoned minds and emotions, not just bodies, and the EE program can help immensely with that. But at the same time, nobody here advocates just sitting around meditating while ignoring the pain and suffering in this world. Far from it.

The thing is, psychopaths are the source of all that's wrong in our world. We can help victims, but how to break the cycle so there ARE no more victims? We can't exactly remove the psychopaths directly, but we CAN attack the "sleeping humanity" part of the equation - by helping ourselves, each other and hopefully many more people to wake up.

You may think others here are attacking you, but they're not. They're only trying to expose certain false parts of you. And they're doing it out of concern for the REAL YOU - who is someone that you may not even know yet. Sure, some wrong guesses and mistakes can be made on our part. But it's also possible that some things are being seen in you that you are unable to see in yourself. Can you admit this possibility? This is why a network is important. We cannot see ourselves clearly enough to make it alone.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

That's exactly the point. The question is, what is "human nature" really? Are we talking about man as an animal, his animal nature, or are we talking about his truly human nature: his ability to think symbolically and use symbols and language and whatever may lie behind that?

If we are talking about the former, then we are talking about the evidential Neanderthal nature. If we are talking about the latter, then we don't have much of a clue as to what we are talking about since all of the experts are at a loss to explain the shift.

Wow... This has me asking the question (without any answers whatsoever), what is the relationship between Lobachevski's human instinctive substratum, where he places the origin of basic human values AND a difficulty in understanding psychopathy, and the human natures discussed above?

 

[rofo6850]

Laura said:

Here you are just plain wrong. It has always and ever been religious. Even in the guise of science, it is religious. It is only via religion that governments are able to control masses of people and to get them to sacrifice themselves to an ideal, to do the killing for the pathologicals.

Well, here we disagree, religion is the excuse, but the true motto behind this is plain materialism and ambition. The real predators of mankind are not religious at all, they use religion every time it is suitable to them. Ambition and material needs are excelent means of manipulation and control. Religion is not the only one, there are even more, connected to the process of identification there is racism, ethno-centered phylosophies and everything which exploits the sense of internal union. In fact, many wars are fought under this premises, us vs them, they are bad, dark skinned, evil, they are not like us.

Zionism and Western powers, economical, political and military have no religion at all. It is precisely Western's who have showed a degree of racism and paranoid consideration of another cultures and different people that is difficult to find a parallel in history.

There is a true religion, without it we are doomed. The Gnostic Gospel of Thomas came from somewhere in the East, maybe a semitic people, maybe not, but is not Western thinking.

The rest I agree.

Patience

As for us making the information accessible to you, well... That is the pickle. It is currently an extremely obscure subject, filled to the brim with misinformation and innately disturbing to humans on top of that. But really... Until you read PP, I suggest wasting no more time on this forum trying to discuss psychopathy. We hope to make this information more accessible and digestible, but until then, the only way is to go to the source.

I have read PP, my friend. It would be wise if you come down from your heights, many people could understand and read PP and maybe take better conclusions. The fact is that nobody knows a little about psychopathy simply because evil is a pretty unknown matter, there are no rational explanations.

May I suggest you an excellent book on this topic?, read Scott Peck's "People of the Lie", in case you didn't yet. And take note of the confession of the author regarding this issue, a true expert.

It is not the case others do not have the knowledge or access to the sources, what seems to escape from your mind is that people have different cosmovisions and ethics, that's why there are differente interpretations of the same source. This is diversity and if you travel around the world and meet different cultures you would be astonished as to the degree of variability in ethics and mentality.

 

[FireShadow]

Laura said:

Here you are just plain wrong. It has always and ever been religious. Even in the guise of science, it is religious. It is only via religion that governments are able to control masses of people and to get them to sacrifice themselves to an ideal, to do the killing for the pathologicals.

Well, here we disagree, religion is the excuse, but the true motto behind this is plain materialism and ambition. The real predators of mankind are not religious at all, they use religion every time it is suitable to them. Ambition and material needs are excelent means of manipulation and control. Religion is not the only one, there are even more, connected to the process of identification there is racism, ethno-centered phylosophies and everything which exploits the sense of internal union. In fact, many wars are fought under this premises, us vs them, they are bad, dark skinned, evil, they are not like us.

Careful, you are dangerously close to agreeing with Laura here. She did not say that the controllers were religious, but that they use religion. Pretty much what you said as well.

If I understand her correctly when she included science in the guise of religion, then I think she meant that the use of religion is a way to hook people into belief systems (whatever the form) which then keeps them from seeing reality. This makes it so much easier to manipulate them.

 

[anart]

Careful, you are dangerously close to agreeing with Laura here. She did not say that the controllers were religious, but that they use religion. Pretty much what you said as well.

I think this is a large part of what is happening here with rofo - he is not understanding the points Laura is making, and others are making. This appears to be due to a strong identification with an 'anti-Western' mindset that is blocking his ability to understand the basic premises that Laura is presenting. In my experience, any time someone has the same point made clear to them by several consecutive people in a thread and they still don't get it - there is always some sort of psychological/intellectual block coming into play. They simply cannot grasp what is being said to them due to their own preexisting definitions and internal biases. fwiw.

 

[Z...]

Careful, you are dangerously close to agreeing with Laura here. She did not say that the controllers were religious, but that they use religion. Pretty much what you said as well.

Well, from what can be observed so far this seems to be the gist of rofo's expression.
Taking your words and throwing them back into discussion with his own spin. Seems that all input that has been so far given to him serves only as an impetus for his formula - 'there is no drama without conflict'.
All this is very energy draining and definitely something to ponder about.

I put it this way since I am not a qualified psychologist and don't want to dish out any diagnoses as rofo puts it. Just sticking to the facts ;)

I read People of Lie shortly before I read PP and it didn't impress me much. All Peck offered was illustration of various cases of "evil" and this became repetitive after a while. He neither offers any solid conclusions nor tries to propose the solution.

edit: I posted this without seeing anart's post otherwise I wouldn't have repeated more or less the same thing

 

[rofo6850]

Fire Shadow

Careful, you are dangerously close to agreeing with Laura here. She did not say that the controllers were religious, but that they use religion. Pretty much what you said as well.

If I understand her correctly when she included science in the guise of religion, then I think she meant that the use of religion is a way to hook people into belief systems (whatever the form) which then keeps them from seeing reality. This makes it so much easier to manipulate them.

Certainly, but there is a subtle issue here you do not see: we do agree controllers use religion as a means to manipulate the masses. However if this is the case condemning religion would be something as your saying goes: "throwing the baby with the bathwater" if I recall it correctly.

For example, the best example is European society itself, the vast majority of Europeans are not religious at all. However this fact doesn't stop them joining NATO armies and supporting the predatory enterprises of their governments in the Third World. THIS IS THE POINT, religion (bad religion) is NOT the only problem, as I have already said, there are other suitable and powerful means of manipulating the masses. In semitic societies is religion, in Western ones (European ones) is not, except of course USA that shows an astonishing level of allegiance to closed religious systems.

It is not enough to denounce the damage done by religion, there is much more to human nature and has to do with a fact the C's have stated clearly, materialism, the very nature of material reality.

Ironically, the very values that can save us, including European societies, are the one which come from true religion.

Neither semitic societies nor western ones nor latin american are free of the lethal virus.

I understand perfectly what Laura is saying, however I am clearly seeing how she, and you, cause you seem to think exactly the same as she, are leaving a fundamental issue out of the equation, an issue that affects yourselves. That is what you don't seem able to acknowledge.

With this stance and message, "everything will change in order that nothing changes"-

Maybe ultimately you do not see what I am contending, but it worth the effort, I have done already this work with other groups and yours is not different at all regarding your reaction.

 

[rofo6850]

Corto

Well, from what can be observed so far this seems to be the gist of rofo's expression.
Taking your words and throwing them back into discussion with his own spin. Seems that all input that has been so far given to him serves only as an impetus for his formula - 'there is no drama without conflict'.
All this is very energy draining and definitely something to ponder about.

It is not drama what I am looking for, but knowledge. I will not take your words, only your syntax structure and alter significantly the meaning, what can be called "my formula" is:

"There is no knowledge without discussion, debate, diversity of opinions and tolerance".