Non duality

Cordillera

Padawan Learner
In a group on trauma treatment with somatic techniques someone recommended a recent documentary on the work of Dr. Gabor Maté in the study and treatment of trauma as a cause of addictions and diseases.

The name of the organization that is broadcasting the documentary caught my attention: Science and Noduality. Looking on their website, I found the explanation they give for "non-duality":

https: // www. scienceandnonduality .com / nonduality

Nonduality has as many facets as there are human endeavors. Mystics describe the nondual experience in many ways, as loving, expansive, blissful and unitive, lacking any sense of separation. More than just a feeling, the experience conveys deep and liberating insights into the truth of life and death, self and world. Yet life continues to happen, things change and turn, and each turning is unique. Viewing life turns through the lens of these insights creates a fuller, freer, happier life—the beginning of awakening.

Mystics and sages are not the only ones to assert and describe nonduality. Philosophers speak of reality as unencumbered by the dualistic oppositions we so often get lost in; a reality lacking such distinctions as mind/matter, subject/object, reality/appearance, self/other, substance/attribute, essentialism/nihilism, past/future, here/there, true/false, good/evil—all binary pairs that cause fracturing and suffering. Scientists, after having successfully used analytic reductionism (“taking things apart”) as a powerful tool for centuries, are now converging with the nondual view, seeing the whole as more than just the sum of its parts. Cosmologists seek a first cause to the universe. Mathematicians describe their pursuit of truth and beauty as a practice for communion with the Divine. Physicists look for the ultimate constituents of matter. Neuroscientists attempt to correlate physiological observables with reported mystical experiences and psychic phenomena. Transpersonal psychologists investigate the effects of those experiences on mental health. Deep ecologists explore the potential benefits of nondual perspectives on sustainability and global health.

World religions teach nonduality in their esoteric branches, including Jewish Kabbalah, Islamic Sufism, Christian Mysticism, Hindu Advaita-Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, Buddhist Shentong, Madhyamaka or Zen, and Taoism. Many indigenous and shamanistic teachings are also nondual in essence. Aboriginal and modern cultures alike explore the realms of psyche—from separate ego-bound mind to transpersonal realms to nonduality—using methods including meditation, altered breathing, music, dancing, drumming and medicinal plants or substances.

The arts celebrate and cultivate the experience of nonduality. From painting to filmmaking, music to typography, sculpture to found-object art, horticulture to cooking, poetry to digital media, ballet to Tai Chi, literature to architecture—nonduality is muse, subject and symbol.

We hold the space for further exploration by bringing individuals from diverse backgrounds together to deepen the experience of various modes of nondual expression, contributing to the overall health of the global community.

The SAND gathering is a celebration of the core truth of existence—that in our distinct and individual arisings and turnings, we are truly not limited, bound, or separate.
I believe that this statement falls into simplifications, generalities and biased views about the philosophical and religious teachings of deep, complex and diverse cultures.

I do not know if my knowledge about the aforementioned philosophies and religions are wrong, but I think there is a great difference between considering ourselves enlightened beings, united with the Supreme Self, without duality, to considering that this actually occurs in our Third Density reality. Consciousness So, I think that this organization could be making a biased or forced interpretation of the ancestral knowledge of that knowledge, to feed the idea - a new age type - that we can create our own reality, change our nature and go against universal precepts.

Perhaps I am making a wrong interpretation or extrapolation of the statement of that organization, but it seems important to me to sincerely seek to know the real human nature, so that our actions or decisions do not go against it. Therefore, it seems to me a wrong way to consider that we must live in a reality in which the fundamental distinctions between "mind / matter, subject / object, reality / appearance, self / other, substance / attribute, essentialism / nihilism, past are ignored. / future, here / there, true / false, right / wrong ".

I opened this thread because I could not find a thread that fits. Actually, my comments are a great open question, to know your opinions or perhaps reading recommendations.
 
I would agree with your assessment cordillera, the text that you quoted seems to be a void description of an ideal, without much substance.

Almost pointing to the fact that duality is what has been wrong with the human experience. A case could be made for that I think, but not one that denies the duality, rather one that explains it and accepts it.

To me, to say that we'd be better off if we got right of happiness in order to not experience sadness and thus not live in this duality seems naive. Both exist and both ought to be recognized so that both are accepted into our lives as part of the whole experience, as part of the natural balance of life.

The other key aspect that caught my attention is that they claim that this duality is what causes suffering, which means that people coming to become part of their program are more than likely people who have suffered or are suffering and perhaps are looking for a way to understand it. Throwing this "oh you see, all you have to do is stop living in the dualities of the universe" is inviting them to ignore their reality, deny their suffering and have them almost attempt to bypass their experience, and that could be troublesome.
 
Funnily enough the nonduality/duality paradigm is a duality in itself, which is too restrictive in their own view :-) Perhaps the thing to keep in mind is to not get stuck into a particular/single-minded approach.

What I'm driving at is that an either/or set of answers to a question isn't inherently false or invaluable per se. By making laudatory generalizations about their description of nonduality it appears to me that they discard completely the value of their description of duality. For instance :
Scientists, after having successfully used analytic reductionism (“taking things apart”) as a powerful tool for centuries, are now converging with the nondual view, seeing the whole as more than just the sum of its parts.

It is as though the age-old reductionistic endeavors where completely at odds with the new "better" holistic view of things, despite their past success. Did it not occur to them that both could be used cooperatively/synergistically to cover a field in breadth and depth ? Why use only one over the other ? Why limit ourselves in a specific way to view the world, to interact with it ?

Again we circle back to their underlying assumption that the choice is either nonduality or duality, which is black and white thinking IMO. Maybe idealistic thinking do that to you, you only look for "pure" answers. What !? Mix different mindset and approaches depending on the context and need ? Such blasphemy ! :-P This rigidity of thinking is opposite to the creativity and flexibility they are advocating/looking for I believe.

For instance, we could theorize that nonduality includes duality but still needs this restricted point of view as it provides a different perspective thus creating a flow/dynamism : nonduality -> duality -> nonduality. Just like an ascending spiral/octave, duality/analytic thinking adds to the nonduality/holistic view and enrich it with details to propel it to higher heights of understanding. FWIW
 
Perhaps I am making a wrong interpretation or extrapolation of the statement of that organization, but it seems important to me to sincerely seek to know the real human nature, so that our actions or decisions do not go against it. Therefore, it seems to me a wrong way to consider that we must live in a reality in which the fundamental distinctions between "mind / matter, subject / object, reality / appearance, self / other, substance / attribute, essentialism / nihilism, past are ignored. / future, here / there, true / false, right / wrong ".
Nonduality is not a negation of dualities just a higher perspective. If they claim that you dont need dualities then it is a scam, non-dual teachers never claim that sort of stuff
that we can create our own reality, change our nature and go against universal precepts.
That sound like new age, but non-duality is about accepting reality not about ego-boosting you desires to create selfish stuff etc.

Go watch Paul Hedderman on youtube he talk simply about nonduality so you can have understanding about it and you will know if this site is a scam or not
 
The other key aspect that caught my attention is that they claim that this duality is what causes suffering, which means that people coming to become part of their program are more than likely people who have suffered or are suffering and perhaps are looking for a way to understand it. Throwing this "oh you see, all you have to do is stop living in the dualities of the universe" is inviting them to ignore their reality, deny their suffering and have them almost attempt to bypass their experience, and that could be troublesome.

[This answer was automatically translated from Spanish. There may be phrases or words that lose meaning]

What you say makes me reflect on how this non-duality fits into the works that they are disseminating, especially the documentary about Gabor Maté's trauma treatment and the talks with other researchers.

The documentary focuses more on showing the problem and very little on the solution. In fact, the solution is introduced by promoting the use of ayashuasca, as a mechanism to know the cause of the trauma and, from there, treat the trauma with psychological and somatic techniques.

Then, people who are going through difficult and desperate situations, or even therapists who sincerely seek to help their patients, will be tempted to try psychotropic substances to access the cause of trauma. I think this is a dangerous risk, since the use of psychotropic substances could worsen the traumatic condition of the person. Not only from the point of view of the major neurological disorders and in the nervous system that they can cause in traumatized people, but I also refer to the retraumatization of coming face to face with what causes a trauma.

A trauma occurs because a danger or threat was so intense or too fast that the person's nervous system was unable to respond adequately. Therefore, in patients with trauma it is recommended not to take them directly to the traumatic situation, but to go several steps before the event that caused the trauma, slowly, with body awareness. As in the myth of Perseus and the Medusa, if you look at the traumatic situation head-on, you will again be immobilized. So, using a substance that will confront you directly with the traumatic sensations, you will probably not have the possibility to respond adequately and your nervous system will collapse again.

Although somatic techniques are effective in treating trauma, the incentive to use psychotropic substances could be counterproductive. We already know that the devil is in the details.

I believe that this superior perspective of living outside of the dualities that the world we live in presents to us, can lead us to keep falling asleep, it can be a trap so that we do not make a conscious decision in our lives about in which world we want to live: the true or false, good or evil, etc.

Why is this non-dualistic perspective introduced to the subject of trauma and healing techniques?

Perhaps I am seeing conspiracy theories where there are none, but I think that the subject of the treatment of emotions will be fundamental in the coming years. We see more and more people trapped in emotions that immobilize them or make them make bad decisions.

The Cass have said that The Wave will produce a greater lack of control of our emotions (I am paraphrasing, I will look for the specific quote), so there will be an epidemic of psychological disorders and a greater need for people prepared for its treatment.

Given this scenario, wouldn't it be a good idea to manipulate and misrepresent precisely those techniques that have proven to be effective in healing trauma?
 
The Cass have said that The Wave will produce a greater lack of control of our emotions (I am paraphrasing, I will look for the specific quote), so there will be an epidemic of psychological disorders and a greater need for people prepared for its treatment.
I've found this session excerpt that talks about the emotions/Wave connection :

Session 3 December 1994​

Q: (L) This wave is feeling? It is a wave of emotion?

A: Hyperkinetic sensate.

Q: (L) What does that mean?

A: All.

Q: (L) We don't understand

A: Too complex for this medium.

And from the thread of the 22nd of July 2012 session Laura gives further thoughts on the matter that are more relevant to what you may look for :
No, not really. It's just interesting to see what other people are picking up.

I was thinking this afternoon about The Wave and how the Cs described it as "hyperkinetic sensate." That might be something like "overwhelming emotion." Which would mean that whatever "dirty" emotions a person is still burdened with could easily overwhelm them in a very negative way. It might even be that all these people going off the deep end, like zombies and mass killers, etc, are just showing us some of the precursor activity. I'm not discounting that they are possibly programmed to "go off", I'm just saying that some of this... also, the very sick people who do that kind of programming could be influenced by feeling the loss of control, that is, having their fears or need to dominate "enhanced", so to say.

For anybody who is paying attention, things really, REALLY, are weird and getting weirder. And all the while, the media and the masses toddle along trying to act like everything is just fine, nothing to be concerned about.

Interestingly this post also talks about zombies (topic that was brought up in the last session) and overall I believe it connects with what you said about the need for providing adequate support/help for (maybe) a massive amount of people that will break down emotionally (and/or mentally, physically).

Given this scenario, wouldn't it be a good idea to manipulate and misrepresent precisely those techniques that have proven to be effective in healing trauma?

It could be, but is it the case here ? Did the organization broadcasting the documentary censored/influenced it in any way (compared to Gabor Maté's original work) ? Was there any marketing campain online/offline where the documentary and/or the techniques themselves where misrepresented/manipulated ? Are there any other aspect of this organization that seem "extremist" or "weird" that may impact how people may view the documentary and/or its content (because nonduality is a fairly innocent topic itself) ?
I guess there are many way in which, deliberate or not, "sabotage" of the propagation of information/truth may occur. However I wouldn't get too carried away and automatically think that there is some kind of conspiracy behind this. My 2 cents.
 
Thanks Recto for the sessions.

I found two other sessions where the subject was discussed:

(Data)I have one more. The C's once described the Wave as hyperkinetic sensate. I would like to know when a person does work on himself, facing one's own mechanical nature and the mechanical nature of others, that also creates sensations that I thought could be hyperkinetic too. Are these two things comparable? Would a person that works on himself, is that comparable to hyperkinetic sensate that the Wave was described as?

A: It can be. A person who struggles with intense emotion and masters it is somewhat inoculated.

Q: (L) So if you experience these hyperkinetic sensate experiences incrementally or gradually inside yourself by working with yourself, and you deal with them, then you are not subject to being blown apart by the hyperkinetic sensate Wave that comes later? Well, I mean, come on! It looks to me like we're already experiencing it. Look how all these people are acting all over the planet. If that's not a hyperkinetic sensate... I mean, you see those so-called Social Justice Warriors? When I saw the screaming woman with the glasses on after Trump's election, I mean... And the rest of them? They're just acting freakin' CRAZY! So I would say that hyperkinetic sensate is partly involved with the disintegration and the soul smashing. It's like insane. Am I right there?

A: Yes

(L) Yeah, I was telling Andromeda the other day... Ya know, the Cs once said that the effects of the Wave would be felt as "hyperkinetic sensate". That means whatever you focus on, whatever emotions get elicited from you or arise within you, can be highly intensified in these times. That's why these people are crazy. They've got all of these wicked dreadful emotions like hate and resentment and self-hatred and all of that sort of thing. They're turning it outward to hate others. I think it's important for us to pay attention to those close to us and to feel positive emotions so that THOSE can be hyperkinetically amplified in some way.

(Artemis) You shouldn't bring what's outside inside...

(Andromeda) It's not about blocking anything out, but choosing what to focus on.

(L) In other words, you can pay enough attention to the outside world to know what's going on and to know if you need to do something, make a maneuver, or whatever... But as Artemis just said, don't bring the outside inside. In a funny way, it's one of the reasons that I was drawn to read this series of novels was that it elicits ideas of a different world. It wasn't conscious, but it elicits ideas of romance, harmony between men and women, and so on. You guys laugh at me about them, but they really depict relationships in a most interesting way. They're just... And yeah, they talk about physical relationships, but they also talk about mental and emotional relationships. Very often, it's expressed in a physical way. Back me up here, Gaby!

(Gaby) It's true.

[...]

(L) And we created and added a prayer to our crystal charging this time that is basically an effort to help to manifest or to draw ourselves into a reality that's more peaceful, beautiful, or whatever. So if you're going to have a hyperkinetic sensate, if your emotions are going to be amplified by the very nature of the environment and the frequencies of the Earth or solar system or cosmos, be DAMN careful as to what you focus on or think about!!!

(Pierre) In the way those Lefties materialize or amplify their anger or whatever negative emotions, in the same way you can amplify the positive emotions as well. It can lead to more than just emotions.

(L) It doesn't mean you're ignoring anything. You're not ignoring what's going on.

(Pierre) But you don't focus on it. It's not yours. You know it’s not yours.

(L) Balance, like the C's said... You give it the attention it needs and the amount of behavior modification it needs. Whatever you need to do to deal with it. I get up and read the news every morning and go through all of that, and then I close the door. I know what's going on. Even if I don't see something today that I need to react to, I know what's going on. Now let me turn my attention to what is beautiful... And then I turn my attention to it. And for the most part, it's Ark and you kids. So, that's what I wanted to say.

I think your feedback is important, it is necessary to investigate more and not get carried away and automatically think that if there is some kind of conspiracy behind this.

I am going to use my internal alarms to learn more about the subject, rather than putting labels a priori.
 
Nonduality is not a negation of dualities just a higher perspective. If they claim that you dont need dualities then it is a scam, non-dual teachers never claim that sort of stuff
But what is the point of exercising a higher perspective? And this is an honest question. I see the value of understanding the universe as the interaction of forces modulated by context, from a higher perspective it's useful to remind oneself from time to time that certain things are merely the outcome of its opposite in existence. If we have truth there must be lies and viceversa.

I think the point cordillera was attempting to make is that beyond an exercise in vision, which in itself doesn't lack in value, focusing too much on the idea of non-duality can lead one to eventually remove oneself from participating in life by choosing a path to walk on, regardless of whether this represents a choosing one side of a duality.
 
But what is the point of exercising a higher perspective?
I suggest re-reading cassiopaea transcripts they talk a lot about 4 density and higher perspectives and how it is useful. From the top of my my mind : understanding, knowledge

focusing too much on the idea of non-duality can lead one to eventually remove oneself from participating in life by choosing a path to walk on
Focusing too much on any idea is bad, that question can be asked about any philosophy or religion. I read and watch a lot of non-duality and i never had idea to non-participate in life, and even teachers talk a lot about how it is the opposite of that. You just know the truth of existence and from that arise duality and life, you cant avoid it, unless you want to "do non-duality" (and you don't need to "do it") in some twisted corrupted ego-driven idea of it.

Anyway i agree you should not focus on this idea because it is not needed unless you actually use that to gain knowledge, but it is not a stuff that you use to live a life, it a tool u use in correct place
 
Focusing too much on any idea is bad, that question can be asked about any philosophy or religion. I read and watch a lot of non-duality and i never had idea to non-participate in life, and even teachers talk a lot about how it is the opposite of that. You just know the truth of existence and from that arise duality and life, you cant avoid it, unless you want to "do non-duality" (and you don't need to "do it") in some twisted corrupted ego-driven idea of it.

Could you expand on the teachers your referring to, mainly their point of view of non-duality ? It may help us understand your perspective. For instance, did you "just know the truth of existence" from their teachings ? What's the difference with the "ego-driven idea" of non-duality ?
 
Focusing too much on any idea is bad, that question can be asked about any philosophy or religion. I read and watch a lot of non-duality and i never had idea to non-participate in life, and even teachers talk a lot about how it is the opposite of that. You just know the truth of existence and from that arise duality and life, you cant avoid it, unless you want to "do non-duality" (and you don't need to "do it") in some twisted corrupted ego-driven idea of it.
Thanks for the clarification, just one more thing, how does one "do non-duality?" or what does it mean precisely? I reckon I might be misunderstanding a few concepts here.
 
Could you expand on the teachers your referring to, mainly their point of view of non-duality ?
No, i can tell you who they are but you need to asses it yourself. Paul Hedderman, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and many more

“The consciousness in you and the consciousness in me, apparently two, really one, seek unity and that is love.”
― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

did you "just know the truth of existence" from their teachings ?
Truth of existence is it exist because something created dualism. Their teaching helped but it was more of a help that "from". Its a long road that started with cassiopaeans and so on, those guys and non-dualism is just a knowledge that i gathered.

What's the difference with the "ego-driven idea" of non-duality ?
When you use non-duality for selfish reasons created by ego to achieve this and that. STS
But the point of this statement is to not use non-duality to remove yourself from life and use it as excuse (and u can use many philosophies as excuse ) because nothing in non-duality (imo) say that you stop having life etc. hence if someone say it dose that i call that a "ego-driven idea of non-duality"

You are asking wrong person using second language to communicate complicated stuff, just go watch some teachers and ask questions to someone smarter that me :-P
Thanks for the clarification, just one more thing, how does one "do non-duality?" or what does it mean precisely? I reckon I might be misunderstanding a few concepts here.
I think you just try to experience it (meditating etc.), or learn about it to know how it fits with reality. (Teachers above ?☝️)
 
No, i can tell you who they are but you need to asses it yourself. Paul Hedderman, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and many more

“The consciousness in you and the consciousness in me, apparently two, really one, seek unity and that is love.”
― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj


Truth of existence is it exist because something created dualism. Their teaching helped but it was more of a help that "from". Its a long road that started with cassiopaeans and so on, those guys and non-dualism is just a knowledge that i gathered.


When you use non-duality for selfish reasons created by ego to achieve this and that. STS
But the point of this statement is to not use non-duality to remove yourself from life and use it as excuse (and u can use many philosophies as excuse ) because nothing in non-duality (imo) say that you stop having life etc. hence if someone say it dose that i call that a "ego-driven idea of non-duality"

You are asking wrong person using second language to communicate complicated stuff, just go watch some teachers and ask questions to someone smarter that me :-P

I think you just try to experience it (meditating etc.), or learn about it to know how it fits with reality. (Teachers above ?☝️)

Thank you for taking the time to answer all my questions, I believe I now understand better where you're coming from. I'll check out the people you mentioned to learn more about their philosophy :-)
 
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