Not having any general interests in exterior life

[TOTEM36]

I've worked so that I am able to have time and money to do what actually does interest me. Work is a means to an end -

i really agree with this

Perhaps the key is not to 'like' a job per se, not many people like their jobs, perhaps it's more about the things you can learn in your work environment and what you can learn from the interaction with different kinds of people. Learning how to listen, how to talk, how to act in certain situations. Observing yourself while doing your job etc.

Such a good point.


OMG this is such a big issue in our lives.

Hi Psalehesost,

I read a study recently that the most satisfying jobs are where you are helping other people.
This article could be of some help to you Psalehesost - in finding a job that is satisfying? read this:
http://www.livescience.com/1431-survey-reveals-satisfying-jobs.html

I worked a really hard job when i was younger (that i hated) and invested young so i would be financially free. Then after having achieved financial freedom I became really arrogant, anti-social, extremely bored, wanting to get back into f/t work, but i kept saying 'what is the point? when i dont need any of you people or your stupid society!'. I basically lost my whole motivation to work.

I didnt like this attitude inside so i got employment helping people with extreme disabilities part time, so that i can help people in real need and develop my STO attitude and keep my arrogance and selfishness in check. developing appreciation for what you have. (ie. if you want, check out that article!)
This is a good topic.

 

[theos]

You know, I've worked since I was 14 (lied about my age) and I've never actually been 'interested' in my work - ever. I worked because I had to support myself, because it's what is necessary to live in this world and put a roof over my head (later, not at 14, things weren't that bad ;) ). I think it's fantastic when people work in areas that fulfill them in some way and I know that it's possible, it just hasn't been the case for me in this lifetime. I've worked so that I am able to have time and money to do what actually does interest me. Work is a means to an end - that's it - my Real life occurs in the time I have for myself, but even that would not be possible if I didn't work for it.

So, perhaps it's time to realize that work is usually a means to an end - it's not the goal and if you go through life expecting to be fulfilled by (or even interested in) every aspect of it, then you're not really giving yourself many opportunities to consciously suffer. Sometimes you just have to push yourself to do something in order to realize what action is and appreciate time at all. fwiw.

I agree with this. I've never been very "interested" or absorbed by my work -- at least not the mainstream versions of what I do. I don't really identify much with my work. One person who shares my profession said I don't really seem like the type and I agree. You'll rarely catch me talking about work outside of work. Surprisingly, though there are many aspects of my current job that I like. It's a fantastic opportunity to practice external consideration and respect for free will. I also get the chance to build relationships with people and be of assistance. Plus, I have tons of autonomy, down time and I'm not stuck in a building all day.

You may want to consider jobs not so much based on what you "like" as to whether it suits your temperament and your level of stress tolerance. Meaning, a job that will provide you with the means to support yourself without driving you nuts with stress and worry. Something that won't exhaust you mentally or physically, thereby leaving you with enough energy to pursue your real interests. FWIW

 

[Zadius Sky]

Let's see, did I know what I want to be when I grow up? I thought I did. When I was about 9 or 10 years old, I thought about being a cop was what I wanted to be when I'd grow up. That I would be able to help people. And then, the Rodney King thing happened and I became so fearful and distrustful of the police. But, the idea of helping others still intrigue me yet I didn't know what area of work/career would I be focusing on.

At 16, I started at my first job at a local grocery store (even got promoted three times within a few months due my strong work ethic), then quit at 19 before going to college (got three degrees) and didn't find a job until I was 25 as a file clerk at IBM for starter then got promoted to a team administrator. Then, I quit that job (this was a few months before the stock market crash) to take a wonderful opportunity to work in a bookstore for a short while before moving on. Then now, I'm going from temp jobs to temp jobs. I didn't have a firm idea of what area that I wanted to do nor did I have a strong "interest" in any of my jobs. It's more of a sense or a feeling of obligation to "work." I do agree with anart that working is a means to an end - in my case, money to buy books, to support myself, etc. - but money wasn't the only driving force.

Recently, I'm pursuing a certification in Library Cataloging. While I have never worked in a library, it became an aim for me at this time to work in a library. Going in a direction of that aim, I'm looking for certain "equivalents" from other related jobs that a worker requires to work in a library, such as an office support/administrative, organization, warehouse (packing/shipping), bookstore settings, sales/customer services, mailing, etc. For an example, one of my temp job was working in a warehouse, pulling out hard-drives out of personal computers and preparing them for shipments - that's one skill or labor that I can do, and another temp job was in a bookstore at local university - I pulled online orders and distributed them to college students. With every temp job, it gave me new opportunities to learn new things and to meet people. While I know that I may or may not achieve that end of working in a library (it's just a direction as it's subject to change), I'd gain more experiences with these duties that may help me on some level later on, with different jobs.

While I do have a good work ethic, I have a lack of strong communication skills (due to my hearing loss) which hinders me in many areas (especially some jobs). I am very social immature thirty-years-old and very inexperienced in that aspect of life (I don't have any local "friends"). In terms of learning life lessons, I do know what my limitations are and try to do my best to use what I already have. So, for example, I had no "interest" nor is it my daily hobby in hiking. For last two years, I hiked a great deal (via Meet-Up groups) and it was fun in the process but the aim was to learn how to relate with others to the best of my ability - so I would communicate with other people on the hikes, talking about their interests that I don't share, to try to understand them as individuals. I try to do this at my jobs as well.

 

[Mark7]

I've had jobs that required nothing but strenuous physical labor, later on I had work that required me to think more than do physical work. Both types were fine and served the purpose of making money. But I've also had jobs where the supervisor, lead, or other employee was something of a narcissist, in that kind of situation the stress can be difficult to deal with. The work environment and attitudes of co-workers and supervisors can really be the difference between going home pleasantly tired or going home totally worn-out, mad and/or depressed.

 

[Zadius Sky]

You may want to consider jobs not so much based on what you "like" as to whether it suits your temperament and your level of stress tolerance. Meaning, a job that will provide you with the means to support yourself without driving you nuts with stress and worry. Something that won't exhaust you mentally or physically, thereby leaving you with enough energy to pursue your real interests.

I agree. Nowadays, the stress is set to all high. Not letting yourself to get burnout from your job is important - finding a balance is good.

There's a bit that may be of interest from John F. Schumaker's In Search of Happiness:

By the 1980s, the concept of life as a means of profit had exploded into full bloom and the new deity was the 'entrepreneurial spirit.' This particular spirit was unleashed from most social obligations, and tied to things like self-determination, self-devotion, self-discipline, and maximum expenditure of energy. Nearly all of the success gurus were of the motivational 'think big' variety, encouraging unbridled ambition and power tactics designed entirely to get the competitive edge over other people. Getting 'in front of the curve' meant getting in front of others, or even walking over them if necessary. Fuelling this largely anti-social model of success was an unprecedented level of competition that accompanied greed into the centre ring of modern life. Today, competition is the excuse for the type of success that can lack almost all traces of conscience, sometimes even for the successful person's loved ones.

As the social, religious, intellectual, and natural worlds continued to disintegrate, success had nowhere to go except into the value system of the modern age. This meant that people were being condemned to success of the materialistic variety, which became an unending race for an emotional booby prize. As 'unhappy success' became the cultural path to the good life, effort took on a new importance. This had to happen since success had largely become a contest. In times past, a life dominated by work was nothing of which a person would be proud. It was the domain of commoners and low-lifes who had been deprived of free time for leisure, learning, reflection, and relaxation.

The 'work ethic' professed by Martin Luther and John Calvin in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries blanketed the notion of hard work with positive moral overtones, and kept one out of the devil's workshop. But it was not until recently that work of the self-destructive variety was made into a virtue. Signs of burnout have come to be worn like badges of honour. When people complain that they are being 'run off their feed,' they are letting themselves and others know that they are on target. Conspicuous signs of stress are sported proudly, like blood on a warrior's armour, or the musky sweat dripping from a marathon runner - again signs that victory is nigh.

At another level, many people have come to realise that overwork is jeopardising their chances of happiness and well-being. One large-scale study asked about the number of hours per week that people would be happiest to work at the different stages of their lives. Over 57 per cent wanted to work between zero and thirty hours per week at age twenty-five. This went up to 68 per cent for age forty. Despite this, modern notions about success are driving people to increase their working hours far beyond the ideal for a happy and balanced life.

High-speed living has become a vehicle by which to maximise one's productivity and work output. The faster we go, the more we get the feeling that we are racing toward success and happiness. We now live in an age in which the hyperactive 'Type A' personality has become the norm. But psychologists have begun using the term 'hurry sickness' to describe the state of emotional vertigo that stems from the simultaneous juggling of far too many tasks and activities. They point to research showing that the inhuman pace set by hurry-sick individuals can impair memory and concentration. It can also result in worse performance than that seen by people who move alone in the slow lane, where some time is reserved for reflection, pondering, and old-fashioned staring out of the window.

[snip]

Some can no longer tolerate free time. Personal ambitions are charged and recharged in striving for the pot of fool's happiness that is bestowed upon successful slaves. The term 'leisure anxiety' is being used to describe rat racers who descend into anxiety, and sometimes even panic, when they take a break from work. For some, a vacation is like an act of exposing one's throat to the enemy. People are reaching a point in the quest for unhappy success that they feel comforted by exhaustion in a similar way to which the anorexic is comforted by hunger.

 

[primechild]

[quote author=Psalehesost]I've realized recently that I don't have any general interests within ordinary life - there were specific, very specialized interests (obsessions, in truth)...

In truth, there is no area of the kind of things people do for a living that I'm interested in in general. None at all - there hasn't been, or if there ever were potential for such, that died back in 2005, back before finding this place, as a very deep and lasting disillusionment set in.[/quote]

Psalehesost, I think I was born that way and worst feeling tricked into being here. I have those bouts every 2-3 months and have to force myself out of it. As a child, my mom used to tell me and she sometimes has to remind me:

[quote author=my mom]"C****, you know better! You have chosen to come here, stop turning your back against material/matter it is necessary for growth. So you think you already passed that task/challenge [retro - Spanish] and done?... Nope! The more you pass the harder it gets!”

“if you don’t take care of it now when its subtle/mental, God/Universe will have to start yelling and physically show you to make it easier for you to see” [/quote]

i.e. personalizing: so you don’t want to talk to people ha! I’ll take everything away and you will have to talk and depend on your friends and strangers.

Hopefully, I've learned to have less (don't like to admit) contempt for the general population, opened my mind to learn from everyone (people, animals, nature) and the possibility that even the person that I thought was the most religious fundie, would be able to carry a deep conversation without bringing their beliefs into it.

[quote author=Crystla24]
...I had her almost traumatized, but I would not show any emotion, because I had quit caring. Well one day she did it...she finally made me break down and start bawling my eyes out. I was so mad! ... After words, I felt alot better. .. Her breaking me down [motivated me to] started it initially. [/quote]

Thanks for posting Crystal24! I just figured it out! Screaming and bawling my eyes out with EE (eebreathe.org). LOL that’s what happens every 2-3months, I scream and curse “myself and everything” in shower. Then try to forget both the process and the feelings. EE brought it all out and all the memories, not going to suppress “remembering my repressed feelings” anymore (wrote feelings down in journal). Yay!

{Note: audio got stuck, had to do PotS by memory so when I started crying, Laura’s voice wasn’t there to bring me back}

[quote author=Al Today]
And BTW, Doing something fearful IS hard to overcome. This I have experienced. Start with planning, and baby steps if you must. Work yourself in confidence. With practice and experience, "it" will become easier and fear will fall to the wayside. This I also have experienced.[/quote]

I agree with Al Today, start little by little and slowly.
Learn/Teach: Facing my social fear has been made easier since being a Girl Scout leader. Many girls in our area have been taught to “keep quite, look pretty.” They are afraid to talk to anybody, including adults they know

[quote author=excerpt from cookie booth tasks]
Told them only do one at a time and only when they feel comfortable then progress to next step.
[list type=none]
[*]1. 5 to 3 feet person near you, have eye contact and smile.
[*]2. 3 feet – eye contact say “hello” (to start loop)
[*]

• • You – Other Person

[*]

• a. Hello – Hello

[*]

• b. How are u? – Fine, n u?

[*]

• c. Ok (chose) –[list type=lower-roman]

[*]

• • Eye contact and wait they’ll start subject they want

[*]

• • Comment about the weather, place you are at, or give compliment

[*]

• • Help us go camping/whitewater rafting by buying cookies

[*]3. Always pay attention to what they are saying and comment or ask questions about the same subject (even if its boring to you)
[*]4. now you get your turn to introduce subject [/list]

To be able to teach someone; tasks must be broken down into smaller units and know the “why” of each unit.[/quote]

Nobody showed me how to talk to anyone; I had to figure it out by myself. Wish I had this outline when I was their age. Learning so much about my self everyday with the book “No! You can’t say that to me” and “GAVSD communicating with Kids” books and still learning. Now I have fun training 30-50 adults. Maybe those books can help you too?


GAVSD = Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense
[/list]

 

[luke wilson]

Reading through all this is really tough, to see why people work which I think is representative of the majority. Atleast most people I speak to say they couldn't care less about there work, just a way to pay the bills unless it is charity or conservation workers who somehow say they care about what it is they are doing.

If workers feel there job is just a means to an end, then can you imagine what the companies and organisations can get away with? It kind of does bring into perspective abit of the military stuff and soldiers just feeling it is a means to an end and removing there emotional centres from what they actually do.. Just an example. After all, most join for financial reasons primarily...

Very disheartening but am sure a lesson that is awaiting anyone going to join the workforce.

 

[stellar]

Studying and learning are important. Also important is application of said leaning. My thoughts for one is we are here to experience life. No matter what comes. To Live, Observe, make Choices, Experience, and Learn from the applied experiences. Both pain and joy are part of this duality.
Get outside. Do. Grow. Experience. We are not to be "monks". osit

I think roller coasters are fun too.
:) :) :)

By the way, I have a few late 20 something kids, and the economy does suck. IMO, The world does seem to be sliding down that slippery slope of disaster. This just ain't the same same frellin' BBM I grew up on. I feel for your age group!
And many of us are a few paychecks from being homeless.

Thought about deleting this, but what the heck, this may be of value.

Glad you didn't delete Al. :) My view is very much in line with your post.

All I can add is that I sometimes hear similar stories from my kids but in a round about way I keep reminding them that it is WHO they are inside that matters not the job they're at. Usually when our visit ends they walk out with a straighter posture and a genuine smile on their faces. It was their perception that was bleak not the reality.

'Clear my eyes that I may see... the (w)holliness of True existence' ;). There is a reason why EVERYTHING is a lesson....to learn who we really are.FWIW

 

[RedFox]

Hi Psalehesost

I've struggled with this (despite having a job)....I also understand the social awkwardness.
Anart's and other points are totally valid, and I've understood them for years....trouble is I couldn't put them into action. Something always stopped me....I felt immobilised by life.
What has become clear recently is (at least in my case) it may have another underlying cause that is 'blocking' all aspects of my life - it has a nullifying effect in all areas of my life, lack of interest in things, finding things overly traumatic (before it would be 'null', now as I've stripped away layers small traumas are blown out of proportion)....

Immobility and Trauma

There are three primary instinctual responses available to reptiles and mammals when confronted by a threat of predation - fight, flight, freeze. The freeze response serves important survival functions. A predator may lose interest - some do not like "dead meat" - or "go easy" with a frozen prey - like a cheetah dragging its frozen prey to a safe place first without bothering to kill it first giving the prey a possible opportunity to escape at an appropriate moment. The freeze response also triggers a state of analgesia where endorphins (body's natural pain relief mechanism) flood the body protecting it from debilitating pain. Human survivors describe this state as one of dissociation. Mental processes are stalled and there is a sense of detachment from the body.

[quote author=In An Unspoken Voice]
Although the states of immobilization and dissociation are dramatic, they do not necessarily lead to trauma.
................
Generally, an animal in the wild, if not killed, recovers from its immobility and lives to see another day. It is wiser but none the worse for wear. For example, a deer learns to avoid a certain rock outcropping where it was ambushed by a mountain lion. While my observational hypothesis is based on field observations and not empirically proven, my interviews with wildlife managers throughout the world have supported it. In addition, it is difficult to imagine how individual wild animals (or their entire species for that matter) would have ever survived if they routinely developed the sorts of debilitating symptoms that many humans do. This natural "immunity" is clearly not the case for us modern humans - but why and what can we do about it?

Animals have a spontaneous capacity for self-paced termination of the state of immobility. Laboratory experiments on animals have shown that when animals are repeatedly frightened and repeatedly restrained, they gradually lose this ability for recovery. A "traumatized" animal could remain immobile for as long as seventeen hours whereas a non-traumatized one would recover from its induced immobility (a cited experiment involved gently picking up a guinea pig, holding it securely, turning it upside down and then placing it down on its back) in a matter of seconds to minutes.

Also, when an animal comes out of the frozen state, it usually shakes and trembles - it literally shakes off the state of immobility. Levine contends that though the freeze response (governed by the phylogenetically oldest part of the nervous system, the unmyelinated dorsal vagal complex) overrides the flight or fight response (governed by the sympathetic-adrenal system), the body is still in the aroused state having mobilized survival energy due to the perceived threat. It is this excess energy which has not been discharged through active defense measures (since the animal froze) that gets dissipated through the acts of trembling and shaking. It is a physiologically essential action to restore the normal equilibrium of the nervous system.

Humans have difficulty in completing the above natural process due to fear (the intensity of the survival energy frightens us) and the discomfort of surrendering control to involuntary sensations. Levine says that when intense fear and other negative affects (like shame) gets coupled with the immobility response, trauma is generated as a self-sustaining feedback mechanism.

[quote author=In An Unspoken Voice]
Traumatized members repeatedly frighten themselves as they begin to come out of immobility. The "fear-potentiated immobility" is maintained from within. The vicious cycle of intense sensation/rage/fear locks a person in the biological trauma response. A traumatized individual is literally imprisoned, repeatedly frightened and restrained - by his or her own persistent physiological reactions and by fear of those reactions and emotions. This vicious cycle of fear and immobility (aka fear potentiated immobility) prevents the response from ever fully completing and resolving as it does in wild animals.
[/quote]

It has been my experience with EE that emotional cleansing is often accompanied by spontaneous shaking/ trembling as well as crying. Infants probably use these physiological responses (shaking/trembling and crying) when coming out of freeze states - at least some limited personal observations seem to point in that direction. Overall, Levine's hypothesis about trauma and immobility does seem to be on solid ground - osit.
[/quote]

 

[Psalehesost]

I don't know that I could really give much advice because I seem to struggle with the excact issues. I read through one of your other threads and there was a lot in common between you and I, from my perception. It started happening when I was still a teenager and had gone "beyond depressed". Like life finally did me in. To where, ultimately, I quit hurting and feeling sorry for myself, but I really could not feel any happiness or interests. For a long time I just considered myself a Nihilist- Wikipedia definition- a person who believes human existence has no objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. I had pulled out of this at one point in time, but I find myself falling back to it from time to time.

In my case I never became quite at "peace" because strong, neurotic issues also entered - these have since been struggled with quite successfully. As for the emotional deadness, as is more or less suggested by the last update made in that thread, I've started to come out on the other side - much left before that sinkhole has been fully left behind, but something has changed.

It seems that on this "other side", life again (for me as yet in slow, gradual steps) begins to pick up, but with considerably less illusions held and considerably less attachment - I think the seeds of a bankruptcy (in Mouravieff's sense) were sown back then (as he notes in Gnosis, strong negative emotions are almost always needed to bring this about - I think because it is the only thing capable of fully "punching through" the crust, smashing a false personality at the core) - so once all the garbage (lies and identifications) gathered by the false self in order to "patch up" on top of this is ripped away, maybe such a bankruptcy can finally, uninterrupted, unfold in full - if so, something to look forward to.

When one has life goals, how do they know their life will take them to meet their ends, or will it just be another broken hope. Why not quit all the "wishful thinking" and just have fun in seeing where life takes you next. If it is not taking you anywhere, maybe a new environment could help.

Or a new inner environment. Because wherever one goes, one carries it along; the lessons one has to face can never be escaped, and if learning is the goal, neither should they.

My personal thoughts are that exterior life does matter, after all that is how you express yourself, that is how you interact with the world out there, by the decisions and choices you make.

And Learn - yes; that's the whole point of struggling with all this.

I think a good place to start is to figure out what interests you. How do you spend your days? What do you do? What kind of stuff do you read or watch? what about the world out there captivates your mind, arouses interest? Then you can try and connect that with something out there that will give you an opportunity to potentially make a living along the same routes... I think it is atleast useful if you start engaging yourself in this way, at the very least you're bound to learn something new about yourself.

Mentioned in my post was that these things - mainly software programming - that have been done as a hobby were confused for general interests - and that that was a lie I told myself in identifying with, in this case, the role of "programmer" as well as with the projects themselves.

It's "empty". So I have no general interests - and honestly I'm fine with that (to make it otherwise, I think, would require lying very deeply to myself); what matters is having or gathering the strength and understanding to struggle successfully regardless - any fool can go along with something identified with (ie. something "liked"), but - or so I think - really going along without identification would be an actual and worthwhile struggle.

You might want to pay special attention to that "deep and lasting disillusionment." It could well work in your favor, and I don't know but once you SEE on an even larger scale, you may not feel that way any longer. In the mean time, unfailing perseverance can be helpful. It can help find a job, too.

While the following is nothing new, I've "figured out" that there are two ways to "succeed" in life: Either one believes all the lies, or one sees through it all - if one is somewhere in-between, things go badly.

I think this "SEEing on an even larger scale" is what is slowly beginning to happen - hence further disillusionment (in this case beginning with myself) noted in the post, and the idea, which is looking ever-more reasonable and attractive, of the solution of picking something that works for a usefully free life and outwardly faking interest.

Well, there are jobs/careers people take because they want to work up the ladder or hierarchy and then there are jobs people take because they may not be interested in a lot of work-related responsibilities and would rather have greater freedom to pursue their own interests. Financially, it can be a trade-off, but if you're content living a modest lifestyle and would rather have a greater range of freedom on the job, it might be worthwhile looking into a job that offers more of a range of freedoms. As far as "pretending to be interested" in a job, I don't know many co-workers that don't do this, aside from those who are pathologically driven in some way. :D

[...] After seeing this kind of job, I realized that this was the sort of job that I wanted, it didn't matter what I was actually doing (within reason, of course), as long as I had the time and freedom to pursue my own interests.

I'm not sure if this helps you or not, but had I known that these jobs were out there, I probably would have worked harder to get into one from the beginning instead of wasting so much time doing jobs that required my full attention for the entire time at work. That might be something to consider in your job search. It's obviously something that is not discussed among employers, head-hunters, etc., but it can make a big difference in the life of an individual when working a job.

That is helpful - it merges beautifully with the option of "picking something" that works and outwardly faking interest - as a practical idea of what to look for.

The question remaining is what jobs to look for in this light, and in considering the likelihood of actually getting them. And what skills are presently acquired vs. which would be required. More on that further down.

Worrying about one's "mission" really doesn't accomplish anything. Providing you are open to the Universe, all that will sort itself out eventually. :)

Thanks for something both practical and common-sensible.

Nevertheless, rather soon I found out how much ones social standing and societal involvement in general is inextricably linked to the job you cater for and the payment you receive for it. So the inevitable outcome was a gradually downgrading in status and a growing isolation socially just because I willy-nilly was blatantly different from my initial peergroup. I also found out pretty soon that one is discriminated against when you try to get another job coming from a lower ranked position or from a longer time jobless situation, just because there are insufficient references in your resume. It's almost as if you had been 'doing time' (in the slammer) if you know what I mean. So ultimately this strategy works against you socially in the long run, I've found. There is no turning back. You have to realise this up front. It also may hamper you considerably would you intend to get married.

1. Apart from purely practical concerns, I don't care what "standing" I have in what groups. (with the exception, of course, of this network - because here this is actually based on something objective - on what one really is) In society, all of that is empty, vapid, stupid nonsense anyway. And if one seeks genuine social ties, I think one can find that in whatever "class" one ends up - and if they are genuine, it is irrelevant what standing one's peers have.

2. With the way the world is very rapidly going, all of that should be the least concern to any sane person.

3. I think only a moron would knowingly seek to marry (or have a relationship with) a person who cares about such things. And in any case, marriage - which is unrelated to the health and genuine seriousness of a relationship - is no more than a tradition bundled with a psychopathic religion.

The other side of the coin is the freedom you can enjoy.
[...]
So, to conclude I would say you have to have a very strong character to 'go it alone' and accomplish anything worthwhile for others from a position on the fringe. At least, I couldn't pull it off - which doesn't have to signify anything about your predicament I wouldn't think.

Hope this helps a bit in finding a solution.

I'm already on the fringe - I neither have a good nor bad social standing - since I'm not even really "out there" in life yet. I wonder what concretely you have in mind regarding "accomplishing anything worthwhile for others" - if you mean for people in general around you in life, then perhaps that is so; if you mean for the network, I'd think time and energy is what matters.

From what I understand though, its not the job finding part that seems to be the genuine problem, its more your lack of appetite for various day-to-day matter. Having gone through a lot of the work and learning in the past years, I think you are now seeing the outside world (meaning outside of your house) as futile.

However, the experiences are out there and people to network with also. Like Ryan said, you could find a job that would allow you to pursue your learning while filling the necessity to bring some money home.

More to the point, it is the self-importance that would have me tied to "likes" and "dislikes" - this inner slavery.

Yes, futile in any ordinary measure - though I fully recognize that it is there that the biggest and most significant classroom is found for learning Life's lessons. In theory - has to be put into practice.

Perhaps you could expand on the few bits that you know you do like, like a study of interest which could be translated with some correction to an everyday profession.

The point is that there are none in ordinary life except for specialized obsessions which do not "scale" into general interests.

So that your knowledge, continued search and wish to be expansive (if that is so) could be tuned into mundane life. I'll bet the mundane still hides rich gems for you if travelled with an interest of yours and you allow your eyes and ears to see and hear in that direction, which would probably mean to lay some prejudices to rest.

Well, once fully disillusioned with these former "special interests", the knowledge and understanding in the area could perhaps, in a wholly disinterested manner, be expanded to turn them into more general skills. It'd be a relatively easy way to arrive at a competence for some kind of work in general.

When you already anticipate in how it's going to be, then perhaps you're blocking yourself of opportunities in work environments to be beneficial to you. All of your likes/dislikes don't necessarily have to be Yours, perhaps they're (dis)likes based on programs, that of fear of interacting with others or something like that.

Perhaps the key is not to 'like' a job per se, not many people like their jobs, perhaps it's more about the things you can learn in your work environment and what you can learn from the interaction with different kinds of people. Learning how to listen, how to talk, how to act in certain situations. Observing yourself while doing your job etc.

That the likes and dislikes are programs is known - to my knowledge, when it comes to all that has formed in the personality, there is and can be no other kind. The difficulty is in overcoming the self-importance and inner resistance and disregarding all this - struggling with sufficient strength.

Those expectations that are emotionally based are an issue (and such lie thickly when it comes to social issues - there I must come out of my shell) - those merely in the intellect come and go like the wind. The things you bolded were mostly based on past experience - at the same time, I'm aware that something is changing as of late, something of feeling - so new experience may well change that.

As for the last thing bolded, about a job taken up just to get money being empty, that - in itself, and assuming self-importance is overcome - is not about dislikes, but simply the absence of likes - a complete neutrality, in other words, if I get over myself to that point.

Right now your basing your decisions on your likes and dislikes, which is okay,

Actually not - it means a lack of following (in genuine practice) a real Aim in life, and in consequence drifting - exactly the thing that must change.

but if you would base them on your desire to learn too, then it won't be that hard anymore to find a job like-able. The school is out there, too, in the real world.

Given sufficient death of self-importance, yes - then it will work. And some of that is proceeding along with the realizations before and after posting this thread. Before, I could not have considered seriously the idea of picking something and just faking an interest - now it looks like the way to go, and as a journey of learning.

For the average man, the world is weird because if he's not
bored with it, he's at odds with it. For a warrior, the world is
weird because it is stupendous, awesome, mysterious, unfathomable.

Feeling must enter - that has proved to be a new possibility - then this can be put into practice. Such feeling is there, but only comes from time to time, with so much else "in there". If this changes, then it will all be easier.

I've never actually been 'interested' in my work - ever. I worked because I had to support myself, because it's what is necessary to live in this world and put a roof over my head (later, not at 14, things weren't that bad ;) ). I think it's fantastic when people work in areas that fulfill them in some way and I know that it's possible, it just hasn't been the case for me in this lifetime. I've worked so that I am able to have time and money to do what actually does interest me. Work is a means to an end - that's it - my Real life occurs in the time I have for myself, but even that would not be possible if I didn't work for it.

So, perhaps it's time to realize that work is usually a means to an end - it's not the goal and if you go through life expecting to be fulfilled by (or even interested in) every aspect of it, then you're not really giving yourself many opportunities to consciously suffer. Sometimes you just have to push yourself to do something in order to realize what action is and appreciate time at all. fwiw.

That's what had begun to sink in - thanks for confirming it. It is sinking in further, and it is killing part of my self-importance.

I read a study recently that the most satisfying jobs are where you are helping other people.
This article could be of some help to you Psalehesost - in finding a job that is satisfying? read this:
http://www.livescience.com/1431-survey-reveals-satisfying-jobs.html

[...]

I didnt like this attitude inside so i got employment helping people with extreme disabilities part time, so that i can help people in real need and develop my STO attitude and keep my arrogance and selfishness in check. developing appreciation for what you have. (ie. if you want, check out that article!)

Though most jobs "helping people" are all about being a cog in a machine that does not objectively help people, in other words a job of helping to keep the machine (ie. human factory farm) running smoothly. In these cases, I would not be fooled into thinking it a great "service", and therefore would not take any special pleasure in or feel myself great for it - it would simply, as any other ordinary job, be something to do to get money.

Your particular example might be an exception - but then, perhaps that is something, again, for "people persons". Something more crafts-oriented might suit me, though again I wouldn't feel special about it if it were "useful".

You may want to consider jobs not so much based on what you "like" as to whether it suits your temperament and your level of stress tolerance. Meaning, a job that will provide you with the means to support yourself without driving you nuts with stress and worry. Something that won't exhaust you mentally or physically, thereby leaving you with enough energy to pursue your real interests. FWIW

That seems to sum it up, pretty much. At present (I may yet significantly change for all I know) that would mean: Probably technically oriented, with reasonable workload, where the skills needed are either such already had or ones quickly acquired. I don't think there is time for further (non-self) education, unless it is a fairly quick course in something - unless as part of something leading up to future jobs of a different kind, in parallel with finding and getting a job at present - I think I'll have to begin with something I know enough or nearly enough right now to do. More on that further down.

Reading through all this is really tough, to see why people work which I think is representative of the majority. [...] Very disheartening but am sure a lesson that is awaiting anyone going to join the workforce.

Amazing the lies we were told about finding "the job you like" and so on. But now we have the chance to learn this lesson beforehand instead of staggering on for years trying to cling to illusions.

I've struggled with this (despite having a job)....I also understand the social awkwardness.
Anart's and other points are totally valid, and I've understood them for years....trouble is I couldn't put them into action. Something always stopped me....I felt immobilised by life.
What has become clear recently is (at least in my case) it may have another underlying cause that is 'blocking' all aspects of my life - it has a nullifying effect in all areas of my life, lack of interest in things, finding things overly traumatic (before it would be 'null', now as I've stripped away layers small traumas are blown out of proportion)....

I've been reading - not yet finished - In An Unspoken Voice. (there is considerable resistance to reading it from some "I", which suggests that reading it is a great idea) I can recognize that the sympathetic nervous system was in overdrive throughout much of my childhood, until gradually immobilization took over as I approached my teens, and then strengthened further until it became quite entrenched. The two used to alternate, with the balance slowly tipping over the years.

This is loosening up little by little, I feel - the balance now tipping back - though there has not been much in the way of shaking and trembling and such - probably because there are not a few, strongly traumatizing events but a long stretch of a slow inner grinding-up of myself.

It is the gradual coming loose - or somewhat looser - that makes it possible to really recognize what I have to do, why, and now taking steps in this direction. I guess there's more to come, and definitely more to read and explore on this topic.



Now, what was referred to further above - alternatives - which I'll get to here. Firstly, in terms of long-term planning, there's one definite thing - I'm not going to stay up here in Scandinavia longer than I have to, so I hope that whatever steps are taken and whatever genuine progress is had will lead me to this. This means not really looking for a long-term job right now - rather something... "for now". Staying as open as possible.

In the long term, I guess any of a number of things would do as a job - in the short term, it is likely best to go for that for which I have relevant skills as of now.

If a relevant job is found, the skills that may be more or less immediately capitalized on (and the hard part is finding a first job, in not having much in the way of academic credentials) are:
1. Programming, particularly being rather used to development done in the old-fashioned UNIX-style. Also to a very limited extent web programming - limited because much is typically but not always used that I have no experience whatever with.
2. Knowing Linux (some less user-friendly-oriented distros) as well as several BSD systems, having been installing, using, messing around with and maintaining my installations, though as yet only as a "user".
3. Applying digital audio processing and having a good "ear" for this - could perhaps, if I'd get far in this direction, eventually become an audio or "mastering" engineer at some company dealing with trashy pop media. Big con in that case: Perpetually jellified brain from constant listening to such.

#1 is most likely (would work perfectly straightaway if a suitable niche job is found that accepts self-taught programmers without previous work experience - not so likely, but not impossible); #2 would most likely need more development to become applicable to a job. #3 is both unlikely (no credentials) and due to the big con in the common case of such work, also likely out - though exceptions in the realm of professional work are conceivable.

In the somewhat longer term, could also "branch out" a bit from these - from #2, become familiar with server administration, perhaps? Or going from #1, proficiently learn the Microsoft way of doing things - since this is very, very big in the industry; or alternatively become a learned web developer although without much design skills, if such have much opportunity for work - perhaps, even likely, in bigger teams where tasks are divided.

In the longer term, I guess there's any number of possibilities I can't presently think of.

At present, as of some weeks back I've been going along with attempts at finding work related to #1. It might help in this regard, perhaps, to - in a ruthlessly pragmatic fashion - dust off some the free time projects, get them working well enough, and release the source on the 'net so as to become more visible and more easily have something to refer to. That would be one use of those former obsessions.

 

[TOTEM36]

But I've also had jobs where the supervisor, lead, or other employee was something of a narcissist, in that kind of situation the stress can be difficult to deal with.

Good point, its the worst thing that can happen huh. I know its nothing new, but, i have learnt that if you start getting overly targeted by a Narc in a position of authority, you just have to get out immediately before the stress builds up too much and you turn schizoid. Im all for toughing it out for awhile though.

 

[Nimue]

Hello Psalehesost,

I have struggled with this lately, I wasn´t interested in anything except in reading and have some peace and quiet. But how can I learn anything when I shut the exterior life out ? So I gave myself a push and take up my previous interests. I start again to practice with my Tai Chi Group, meet friends, go out in the nature by bike etc. To be active in the exterior life has helped me to get an other view in reference to other people, their actions and interests and I am happy that I can be a part of it, even if they have a totally other worldview then me.

Two months ago I have changed my job, I was doubtfull if this was the right decision ( cause of longer working time, new area of responsibility, new co workers), but this decision turned out to be the best for my further development. I am still surprised what I am capable of and I have learned to have more trust in myself an my abilities. Even this is not my dream job I am contend with this job. Before my job change I have had a very fixed view in reference to working life, but with this new job I have learned that there are also good places to work, now I can work without controle and with people who trust in my abilities......... for a company who tries to make the working environment comfortable for the workers.

Certainly I still like to have peace and quite, but to go out and try to deal with exterior life can show you that there are also things that make life liveable. I think it is the mix that makes it work.

I hope you will find a job and interest that are helpfull for your development, so pick your self up and try to do it step by step, cause the first step counts....

Best wishes for you ! :)

 

[Mark7]

Hi Psalehesost,

Reading through your post reminded me of a passage from Castaneda's "A Separate Reality", where Don Juan discusses the concept of "controlled folly", which seems to be possibly related to the aloofness you are currently feeling, perhaps it is a sign of growth...

Our lot as men is to learn. I have learned to see and I tell you that nothing really matters. A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting, nor by thinking about what he will think when he has finished acting. A man of knowledge chooses a path with heart and follows it; and then he looks and rejoices and laughs; and then he sees and knows. He knows that his life will be over altogether too soon; he knows that he, as well as everybody else, is not going anywhere; he knows, because he sees , that nothing is more important than anything else. In other words, a man of knowledge has no honor, no dignity, no family, no name, no country, but only life to be lived, and under these circumstances his only tie to his fellow men is his controlled folly. Thus a man of knowledge endeavors, and sweats, and puffs, and if one looks at him he is just like any ordinary man, except that the folly of his life is under control.

Nothing being more important than anything else, a man of knowledge chooses any act, and acts it out as if it matters to him. His controlled folly makes him say that what he does matters and makes him act as if it did, and yet he knows that it doesn't; so when he fulfills his acts he retreats in peace, and whether his acts were good or bad, or worked or didn't, is in no way part of his concern.

You think about your acts, therefore you have to believe your acts are as important as you think they are, when in reality nothing of what one does is important. Nothing! But then if nothing really matters, as you ask me, how can I go on living? It would be simple to die; that's what you say and believe, because you're thinking about life, just as you're thinking now what seeing would be like. You want me to describe it to you so you can begin to think about it, the way you do with everything else. In the case of seeing , however, thinking is not the issue at all, so I cannot tell you what it is like to see . Now you want me to describe the reasons for my controlled folly and I can only tell you that controlled folly is very much like seeing ; it is something you cannot think about.

Our lot as men is to learn and, as I've said, one goes to knowledge as one goes to war; with fear, with respect, aware that one is going to war, and with absolute confidence in oneself. Put your trust in yourself. There's no emptiness in the life of a man of knowledge, everything is filled to the brim and everything is equal. For me there is no victory, or defeat, or emptiness. Everything is filled to the brim and everything is equal and my struggle is worth my while.

 

[Menna]

Its funny when I am watching football or doing something I use to get excited for I remember when I am watching it or doing it now how much I use to like it but I just can't get myself to care about it as much as I use to.

 

[SethianSeth]

Hi Psalehesost,

I am a bit late to your thread, and much great advice has been given here already. I was moved by what you wrote because I, too, have found myself in a very similar situation as you - having to completely reevaluate my relationship with exterior life in pretty much every way. Also, certainly with regards to neuroses which make social situations difficult.

One thing popped into my head, which has really helped me to put myself in an arena where "conscious suffering" is possible is taking on a restaurant/hospitality job. It is absolutely a means to an end type of job, and (at least in NY and a lot of places in the U.S.) it can actually be pretty high paying with lower end time commitment/flexible schedules. It is also sort of always acts as "temp work." The turn around is usually high, so there is little pressure to enter into any of the hierarchical systems of most jobs. Most importantly, I have found that this sort of work places me (if I am diligent) in constant observation of myself. When interacting with others, I have almost always existed in a constant state of inner-crises. I have learned to hide it well, but working in a restaurant has actually helped me examine the intricacies carefully and begin to untangle the knots. So many to go!

Given that you have already taken giant strides (for quite some time now) toward self-study, as well as (presumably) techniques such as EE for stress management, I think that placing yourself in this certainly uncomfortable situation may be a challenge you enjoy more than you think. I have been working in different restaurants for about 4 years now, and I am constantly learning. Placing a hospitality job in the context of our Odyssey thread has been even more rewarding because there is a new directive (entirely self-imposed) on work that is supposedly about service (and yet is almost always built on pathological grounds).

One really nice thing is that the restaurant functions as a pretty well defined organism. Once you learn the motor functions, you can focus on the transfer of energy entirely between you and others and not worry about the technical aspects of the job. You will also come in contact with nearly every other human type possible, and since there is a constant flow of new people, begin seeing how the social process works in increasingly more specialized and skilled ways. This is low pressure, when you know that your interactions with others will be toward a specific end and for a very limited time (often never seeing the people again). My inner feelings of terror with regards to social interactions has subsided significantly as I work toward increasing my true hospitality skills, as well as conducting my own little "field studies" of how complex the ponerization process is within society, trying to identify specific types of interactions/people/moods through observation. Name them and neutralize them. One thing that was brought up earlier here was that it is a bad idea to spend a long time in a really high stress or particularly authoritarian work environment if you can do anything about it, and many restaurants absolutely apply here. I've had to move around a few times. But the good thing is that restaurants are all pretty much the same, so you learn the skill and find the one with just the right balance.

Anyway, I would be surprised if this type of work seemed appealing to you from the outside. It certainly didn't to me. But given the specifics of your situation, as well as the mind you are cultivating (which has inspired me on more than one occasion) it may be a surprisingly decent way to address what you are struggling with. a late fwiw.

All the best to you!