Paleo diet vs vegetarianism

Samuel said:
My wife is a vegan. I can't get her to budge one bit from this idiotic diet. She does eat fish, especially salmon, but will not touch any other meat, like bacon, chicken, turkey, beef or pork. :shock: :/ :(

Have you considered giving her Lierre Keith's The Vegetarian Myth? It's an excellent read from the perspective of deep ecology from a woman who was vegan for twenty years of her life. I like it because it pays the highest respects to the values that often motivate people to be vegetarian, so vegans reading it don't feel as if they are being attacked emotionally while she explains what is wrong with vegetarianism. Unless they are genuinely subjective in their value systems, in which case it'll take more than cholesterol and B-52 complex vitamins to fix :lol:
 
It seems that Gillian McKeith is something of a mentally unstable fraud, and that her books and dietary recommendations are based on very poor 'science' indeed. Ben Goldacre, writing in the UK Guardian debunks Ms McKeith extensively. The article is quite long, but here's an excerpt:

Ben Goldacre/UK Guardian said:
One window into her world is the extraordinary way she responds to criticism: with legal threats and blatantly, outrageously misleading statements, emitted with such regularity that it's reasonable to assume she will do the same thing with this current kerfuffle over her use of the title "doctor". So that you know how to approach the rebuttals to come, let's look at McKeith's rebuttals of the recent past.

[ . . . ]

Now, once would be unfortunate, but this is an enduring pattern. When McKeith was first caught out on the ridiculous and erroneous claims of her CV - she claimed, for example, to have a PhD from the reputable American College of Nutrition - her representatives suggested that this was a mistake, made by a Spanish work experience kid, who posted the wrong CV. Except the very same claim about the American College of Nutrition was also in one of her books from several years previously. That's a long work experience stint.

She even sneaked one into this very newspaper, during a profile on her: "Doubt has also been cast on the value of McKeith's certified membership of the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, especially since Guardian journalist Ben Goldacre managed to buy the same membership online for his dead cat for $60. McKeith's spokeswoman says of this membership: "Gillian has 'professional membership', which is membership designed for practising nutritional and dietary professionals, and is distinct from 'associate membership', which is open to all individuals. To gain professional membership Gillian provided proof of her degree and three professional references."

Well. My dead cat Hettie is also a "certified professional member" of the AANC. I have the certificate hanging in my loo. Perhaps it didn't even occur to the journalist that McKeith could be wrong. More likely, of course, in the tradition of nervous journalists, I suspect she was hurried, on deadline, and felt she had to get McKeith's "right of reply" in, even if it cast doubts on - I'll admit my beef here - my own hard-won investigative revelations about my dead cat. I mean, I don't sign my dead cat up to bogus professional organisations for the good of my health, you know.

But those who criticise McKeith have reason to worry. McKeith goes after people, and nastily. She has a libel case against the Sun over comments they made in 2004 that has still not seen much movement. But the Sun is a large, wealthy institution, and it can protect itself with a large and well-remunerated legal team. Others can't. A charming but - forgive me - obscure blogger called PhDiva made some relatively innocent comments about nutritionists, mentioning McKeith, and received a letter threatening costly legal action from Atkins Solicitors, "the reputation and brand-management specialists". Google received a threatening legal letter simply for linking to - forgive me - a fairly obscure webpage on McKeith.

She has also made legal threats to a fantastically funny website called Eclectech for hosting a silly animation of McKeith singing a silly song, at around the time she was on Fame Academy.

Most of these legal tussles revolve around the issue of her qualifications, though these things shouldn't be difficult or complicated. If anyone wanted to check my degrees, memberships, or affiliations, then they could call up the institutions, and get instant confirmation: job done. If you said I wasn't a doctor, I wouldn't sue you; I'd roar with laughter.

If you contact the Australasian College of Health Sciences (Portland, US) where McKeith has a "pending diploma in herbal medicine", they say they can't tell you anything about their students. When you contact Clayton College of Natural Health to ask where you can read her PhD, they say you can't. What kind of organisations are these? If I said I had a PhD from Cambridge, US or UK (I have neither), it would only take you a day to find it.

But McKeith's most heinous abuse of legal chill is exemplified by a nasty little story from 2000, when she threatened a retired professor of nutritional medicine for questioning her ideas.

Shortly after the publication of McKeith's book Living Food for Health, before she was famous, John Garrow wrote an article about some of the rather bizarre scientific claims she was making. He was struck by the strength with which she presented her credentials as a scientist ("I continue every day to research, test and write furiously so that you may benefit ..." etc). In fact, he has since said that he assumed - like many others - that she was a proper doctor. Sorry: a medical doctor. Sorry: a qualified conventional medical doctor who attended an accredited medical school.

In late 2010 she appeared on a reality TV show called 'I'm A Celebrity . . . Get Me Out Of Here!'. She exhibited some quite disturbed behaviour for the viewing audience. The UK Independent newspaper has an article about it on their website.
UK Independent said:
Back in the bad old days of barely questioned televisual dietary advice, the nutritionist formerly known as "Dr Gillian McKeith, PhD" made a screen career of castigating the overweight for their eating habits, and persuading them to cry about it on Channel 4.

In the past week, she has managed to tease a tear or two from the slim and inoffensive Stacey Solomon, but on the whole, it's plain old Gillian McKeith herself who's been doing the weeping. And fainting. And miraculously adjusting her clothing while comatose. And squealing at bugs, real or imagined. And all of it, naturally, on national television.

Some of McKeith's behaviour is reminiscent of Munchausen's Syndrome.

Wikipedia said:
Münchausen syndrome is a psychiatric factitious disorder wherein those affected feign disease, illness, or psychological trauma to draw attention or sympathy to themselves. It is also sometimes known as hospital addiction syndrome or hospital hopper syndrome. Nurses and doctors sometimes refer to them as frequent flyers, because they return to the hospital just as frequent flyers return to the airport. However, there is discussion to reclassify them as somatoform disorder in the DSM-5 as it is unclear whether or not people are conscious of drawing attention to themselves.[1]
 
Oh, gawd, i showed the pic to co-workers. It never crossed my mind that so many people can get so angry in a matter of seconds over a diet :evil:
 
agni said:
Oh, gawd, i showed the pic to co-workers. It never crossed my mind that so many people can get so angry in a matter of seconds over a diet :evil:

Yup. It really is utterly amazing to witness it. It's like telling a fundie that Jesus is just a dead man on a stick... actually worse, I think.
 
Laura said:
Yup. It really is utterly amazing to witness it. It's like telling a fundie that Jesus is just a dead man on a stick... actually worse, I think.

Well, we can't expect them to eat meat when they have so many fruits and sacred cows... ;)
 
I know two vegetarians who are kind and friendly, but it has always amazed me how they seem to lack muscular mass. You can tell they don't give their bodies the protein needed just by looking at them.
 
Looking at Nigella's website and the recipes, I don't see much emphasis on paleo diet, its also mostly vegetables/grains and vegetable fats.

Also noticed that Nigella is often mentioned on many websites disccussing plastic surgery.

Ytain
 
skycsil said:
I know two vegetarians who are kind and friendly, but it has always amazed me how they seem to lack muscular mass. You can tell they don't give their bodies the protein needed just by looking at them.

I'm very close with 2 vegetarians and they also look like their bodies have no muscular mass, one is extremely thin and the other is a little bit chubby with no muscular tone. I'm really worried about them, so much that I think they are getting a little uneasy about it. And so am I , cuz I know they will use fallacies against me and I'm not the healthiest person, I've done a LOT of damage to my body and I'm still healing and fighting a lot of stuff. So I can't be a spoke person for the paleo diet!! If I try to send them articles they never reply, and they never seem to have actually even read any of the information on the bad effects of being a vegetarian. It's really stressfull because they are really close to me, and I feel I can't reach them! And that is weird.
 
starmie said:
skycsil said:
I know two vegetarians who are kind and friendly, but it has always amazed me how they seem to lack muscular mass. You can tell they don't give their bodies the protein needed just by looking at them.

I'm very close with 2 vegetarians and they also look like their bodies have no muscular mass, one is extremely thin and the other is a little bit chubby with no muscular tone. I'm really worried about them, so much that I think they are getting a little uneasy about it. And so am I , cuz I know they will use fallacies against me and I'm not the healthiest person, I've done a LOT of damage to my body and I'm still healing and fighting a lot of stuff. So I can't be a spoke person for the paleo diet!! If I try to send them articles they never reply, and they never seem to have actually even read any of the information on the bad effects of being a vegetarian. It's really stressfull because they are really close to me, and I feel I can't reach them! And that is weird.

Starmie, did you forget about the fact that you can't force others to change - and - that, in fact, trying to do that can often have the opposite effect? Free Will - remember? If you've brought it up and have gotten this reaction, then all you can do is wait until they ever actually ask for more information.
 
IMHO, there is no use to send articles or try to convince in anyway. If they see the results on you, they will ask you how you did it. Then, then can choose to adopt a healthy lifestyle or not, but then it's up to them, to their free choice.
 
anart said:
starmie said:
skycsil said:
I know two vegetarians who are kind and friendly, but it has always amazed me how they seem to lack muscular mass. You can tell they don't give their bodies the protein needed just by looking at them.

I'm very close with 2 vegetarians and they also look like their bodies have no muscular mass, one is extremely thin and the other is a little bit chubby with no muscular tone. I'm really worried about them, so much that I think they are getting a little uneasy about it. And so am I , cuz I know they will use fallacies against me and I'm not the healthiest person, I've done a LOT of damage to my body and I'm still healing and fighting a lot of stuff. So I can't be a spoke person for the paleo diet!! If I try to send them articles they never reply, and they never seem to have actually even read any of the information on the bad effects of being a vegetarian. It's really stressfull because they are really close to me, and I feel I can't reach them! And that is weird.

Starmie, did you forget about the fact that you can't force others to change - and - that, in fact, trying to do that can often have the opposite effect? Free Will - remember? If you've brought it up and have gotten this reaction, then all you can do is wait until they ever actually ask for more information.

Yes I often forget when it comes to them, and I feel the opposite effects on myself. Luckily I've been coping with that well I guess but I know you are right I have to wait and stop pushing.


Posted by: mkrnhr
IMHO, there is no use to send articles or try to convince in anyway. If they see the results on you, they will ask you how you did it. Then, then can choose to adopt a healthy lifestyle or not, but then it's up to them, to their free choice.

I agree, there's plenty of room for improvement in me and I hope in time they'll see my improvements and start wondering about their diet's and why they are in the state they are.
 
mkrnhr said:
IMHO, there is no use to send articles or try to convince in anyway. If they see the results on you, they will ask you how you did it. Then, then can choose to adopt a healthy lifestyle or not, but then it's up to them, to their free choice.

I agree altogether. It's a waist of time and energy, and a violation of their free will. Actually they think that you are wrong and evil; sometime ago I took the decision to avoid any argument with vegetarians, any mention to them of how they are damaging their lives. They're like religious fundamentalists, you are not going to enter a synagogue to convince people that the bible is a hoax or that the Talmud is evil, same with vegetarians. It's a similar behaviour, for them the carnivore is a kind of terrorist!

The lack of proper fuel might be another reason (in the non-psychopathic ones) why many people accept what pathological types at the head of religions tell them to do and believe. Also I think of emotional manipulations, and narcissism, after all it is about feeding on others, when not having enough fuel of high quality, hunger of all kind arise, including emotional hunger.
 
mkrnhr said:
IMHO, there is no use to send articles or try to convince in anyway. If they see the results on you, they will ask you how you did it. Then, then can choose to adopt a healthy lifestyle or not, but then it's up to them, to their free choice.

Another externally considerate way of helping them come out of their mental enclosure is to offer non-judgmental advice (if they ask) on specific nutrient requirements and deficiencies related to health symptoms of theirs. If those deficiencies ARE the cause, and their health improves upon supplimentation, they may eventually clue in that a vegetarian diet can't ever provide enough nutrients for their dietary requirements.

Reframe everything in terms of nutrients without specifically bringing up meat. I.e., instead of saying "you're overweight because you lack a ketogenic diet high in animal fats", say "you're overweight because you're developing insulin resistance and leptin dysregulation from too much high glycemic load foods like wheat and refined sugar", and recommend buckwheat or stevia/xylitol as alternatives for balancing blood sugar. It's babysteps, but they will gradually learn sensitivity to what foods are nourishing them properly and what aren't. From this they may be more open minded enough to try meat, or not. But in either case you have helped then improve their lives without violating their free will. :)
 
whitecoast said:
Another externally considerate way of helping them come out of their mental enclosure is to offer non-judgmental advice (if they ask) on specific nutrient requirements and deficiencies related to health symptoms of theirs. If those deficiencies ARE the cause, and their health improves upon supplimentation, they may eventually clue in that a vegetarian diet can't ever provide enough nutrients for their dietary requirements.

Reframe everything in terms of nutrients without specifically bringing up meat. I.e., instead of saying "you're overweight because you lack a ketogenic diet high in animal fats", say "you're overweight because you're developing insulin resistance and leptin dysregulation from too much high glycemic load foods like wheat and refined sugar", and recommend buckwheat or stevia/xylitol as alternatives for balancing blood sugar. It's babysteps, but they will gradually learn sensitivity to what foods are nourishing them properly and what aren't. From this they may be more open minded enough to try meat, or not. But in either case you have helped then improve their lives without violating their free will. :)

That is still deciding for others, by the way of manipulation. If they ask you how do you maintain a good health, you answer that you eat meat and fat. If they ask you for information, you can give information. You give when you are asked, you don't play mind games to arrive to your aims, that are about somebody else's lifestyle and health. You help people through being, and you respect their freewill if they choose to be inspired by you or if they choose not.
 
mkrnhr said:
whitecoast said:
Another externally considerate way of helping them come out of their mental enclosure is to offer non-judgmental advice (if they ask) on specific nutrient requirements and deficiencies related to health symptoms of theirs. If those deficiencies ARE the cause, and their health improves upon supplimentation, they may eventually clue in that a vegetarian diet can't ever provide enough nutrients for their dietary requirements.

Reframe everything in terms of nutrients without specifically bringing up meat. I.e., instead of saying "you're overweight because you lack a ketogenic diet high in animal fats", say "you're overweight because you're developing insulin resistance and leptin dysregulation from too much high glycemic load foods like wheat and refined sugar", and recommend buckwheat or stevia/xylitol as alternatives for balancing blood sugar. It's babysteps, but they will gradually learn sensitivity to what foods are nourishing them properly and what aren't. From this they may be more open minded enough to try meat, or not. But in either case you have helped then improve their lives without violating their free will. :)

That is still deciding for others, by the way of manipulation. If they ask you how do you maintain a good health, you answer that you eat meat and fat. If they ask you for information, you can give information. You give when you are asked, you don't play mind games to arrive to your aims, that are about somebody else's lifestyle and health. You help people through being, and you respect their freewill if they choose to be inspired by you or if they choose not.

I want to stop playing mind games! But I get suck into it so fast!!! I feel I lack a weapon, and I would assume my only weapon could be knowlodge. Where should I look if I'm having trouble mastering my sneaky and biting mind??
 
Back
Top Bottom