Pan's Labyrinth

[Z...]

I finally saw Pans Labyrinth and I have to say that I was slightly dissapointed, while this movie is very good in terms of acting, plot etc I couldnt help feeling cheated and this is to be blamed solely on my high expectations and the fact that we were discussing this movie on this forum. Hence I expected it will contain much more elaborate esoteric message and more profound symbolism.
Instead I am wondering if we are trying to find meaning where none was intended.
In any case I would like to thank SAO as he has very nicely summarized some of my thoughts on this movie.

 

[Beau]

Fairy tales have a habit of making kings and queens seem really nice and loving. But isn't that a contradiction, something that is planted into kids' minds early and they grow up to accept unquestionable authority easier, remembering their fairy tales how kings and queens, or "rulers" in general are not such a bad idea, that there can be good rulers. It makes it easy to sold on the idea that your government or "ruler" can be good, missing the whole point about what a ruler is, what a hierarchy is, and what it isn't, osit.

I don't see why, just because their is a king and queen, you assume they are evil. Their is no proof in the movie of whether or not the king or queen are bad. All that is said is that they 'rule" the underworld. But the devil is in the details. I think you are painting with a broad brush here. Their is plenty of evidence in mythology of hierarchies which are not evil at all i.e. Knights of the Round Table. Is it possible you have a program running here in respect to hierarchies?

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

I know there are all sorts of hierarchies that have nothing to do with STS - systems that are naturally organized in all sorts of ways that don't include the element of control/subjugation in their hierarchial structure. But I mean specifically hierarchy of control - making decisions for someone on their behalf - isn't this inherently STS by definition?

I'm not sure if I have a program here, this is just my understanding of the function of a king, queen, or the concept of government itself. Can you conceive of an STO government? If so, what purpose would it serve, how can it be a government and still be STO at the same time? Isn't "governing" others STS by definition?

 

[Beau]

Since Ofelia was just doing what he said blindly, she wasn't doing it with any understanding of the purpose or nature of what she did and why. She was driven by the desire to escape her horrible predicament in the midst of a fascist nation and world in general, to a better world, and not to mention where she was promised to be a princess, where there is no pain, etc etc! At one point she even asked him if he was telling her the truth, and he said "A nice little Faun like me wouldn't like to you, would he?" in the most STS/creepy/red flag sort of way. The Faun understood her bad predicament in life and basically said "Well if you wanna get away from this horrible place to a really nice place here is what you need to do, and you have a time limit too!".. which didn't leave much time for thinking or understanding at all, but also is manipulative knowing that she'll most likely do it because it has the promise of "relief" or "salvation" attached, which is tempting.

As far as I could tell, no one forced Ofelia to do anything. I was half-expecting to watch the Faun force her to do things against her will, but that never happened. Ofelia's motivations were never made clear, but I never got the feeling that she was manipulated into doing anything nor did I feel she was participating in the tasks set out by the Faun to attain some relief. I think she was curious. But, she at one point told her mother that she just wanted to leave the place entirely.

Perhaps we are at semantics at this point.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

As far as I could tell, no one forced Ofelia to do anything. I was half-expecting to watch the Faun force her to do things against her will, but that never happened.

But couldn't you say the same thing about religion or other similar control mechanisms? Nowadays a person can stop going to Church any time they want, nobody's forcing them. But I mean don't they manipulate people into going? Maybe they aren't violating their free will by forcing directly, but they use our own mechanicalness against us, our own paranoia and fear and laziness and desire to be loved and cared for and desire not to think or worry about things and let some higher power take care of things, and desire for rewards in general, and also a fear of punishment or discomfort in general, etc. Also combined with our linear perception which makes the idea of an all powerful creator God seemingly plausible, it creates a pretty powerful control method, designed specifically with 3rd density STS weaknesses and blind spots in mind. And they use all those things to make people believe lies. Maybe they don't force them to believe the lies, but they exploit our weaknesses, knowing that many of us aren't strong enough to overcome this and will voluntarily obey and believe what we're told in order to get the promised rewards and avoid the promised punishments as well, even if they don't necessarily directly interfere and physically force us to do anything.

If free will violation creates karma, and if this is true for anyone, then I'd imagine that STS systems would look for ways to control others but try to avoid acquiring karma as much as possible. So they'd seek to not violate free will not because they care about us and our free will, but for selfish reasons - because they don't want karma if they can avoid it and still accomplish what they want. It seems to me that one way to do it is to exploit the mechanicalness of others, to have them develop what the C's call a "desire-based imbalance" and to, in essence, do what humanity did during "the fall" - be tempted, and blindly go through a door. Nobody forced us to go, but we went because we were tempted, so wouldn't you call this manipulation?

Ofelia's motivations were never made clear, but I never got the feeling that she was manipulated into doing anything

What is your understanding of the meaning of "manipulation"? Cuz what I saw was pretty clearly manipulative in how I understand the term, so I'm wondering if I'm seeing it wrong or you're seeing it wrong and what is the objective reality in this case?

 

[Beau]

But I mean specifically hierarchy of control - making decisions for someone on their behalf - isn't this inherently STS by definition?

Yes. In the specific context of Pan's Labyrinth this idea is not explicit though. For all we know the king and queen sit on their huge high chairs and eat, drink, and be merry. Nothing points to a hierarchy of control.

I'm not sure if I have a program here, this is just my understanding of the function of a king, queen, or the concept of government itself. Can you conceive of an STO government?

Yes, I can.

If so, what purpose would it serve, how can it be a government and still be STO at the same time? Isn't "governing" others STS by definition?

I don't think so. Actions are what count, not black and white definitions. Think of the Law of Three. Sure, we live in an STS world so their are countless examples to point out how governments are STS, but the possibility can always exist that you can govern without controlling. Pure intent would be needed and it's sorely lacking, at least on this Earth.

 

[Adaryn]

Very interesting discussion, thank you. In a pure STO world, my understanding would be that the concept of government would be totally unnecessary and contrary to an STO way of existence. I suppose that in a pure STO world, everyone, as in G's esoteric circle, has the same understanding and acts in harmony based on that understanding of things ; everyone would be equal in knowledge too (?), so why need a government ? Why need people to decide things for the group ?
But in an STS or mixed STS/STO world, it is necessary to have a governement of STO oriented people in order to maintain the STO orientation against the psychopaths/STS persons. In such a world, there's no equality between the individuals, nobody's at the same level, so there needs some direction. It can be done in an STO manner for the common good, I think.
This is only my personal vision of what is an STO world, as I don't know what is such a world, practically speaking.

Concerning the underground realm in Pan's labyrinth, I agree with Beau that we can't really know what kind of orientation is this realm. We have clues when the voice in the end says Ofelia governed rightly and justly. Yet, I did find the Faun's behaviour manipulative and ambiguous. Plus, this realm is underground. In mythology, that is the land of the netherworld or Hell. That's why I've got mixed feelings and could'nt say for sure that this realm is STO. Plus, I found what is shown of this realm quite creepy and chilly. Didn't really like it. But that's my own personal impression. At the same time, it's still a more happy ending than if Ofelia just made it all up - then we'd have the story of a girl trapped in her own fantasies, dying in illusion... quite heartbreaking.

 

[Tigersoap]

Very interesting discussion, thank you. In a pure STO world, my understanding would be that the concept of government would be totally unnecessary and contrary to an STO way of existence. I suppose that in a pure STO world, everyone, as in G's esoteric circle, has the same understanding and acts in harmony based on that understanding of things ; everyone would be equal in knowledge too (?), so why need a government ? Why need people to decide things for the group ?

It's just a thought but in my opinion STO does not mean that you can't have goals that belongs to you only (although I suppose the term you isn't like we intend it on 3D), that you'd maybe want to follow things that other people might not be interested in, which does not mean that it can't benefit the group after all.

So maybe some form of flowing governement would still be needed to manage things because it's important for the whole group, not everyone might be available at a certain moment to take decisions ?
The difference would be probably in decisions taken for the group as a whole for the whole.

It's not an easy concept to think of imho and I may be far off the reality of a STO society.

 

[Z...]

then we'd have the story of a girl trapped in her own fantasies, dying in illusion... quite heartbreaking.

In fact this is how I got it. At the begining of the movie we can see the girl prefers to read fairytales and to daydream then to dwell in reality.
I am also inclined to see it that way cos parallel universe that appeared to her didnt really make much sense.

There is also a hint Mercedes was the same but eventually grew out of it and became more grounded.


In any case thats just one of possible interpretations and to me movie didnt speak of anything more but thats just a personal impression

 

[Beau]

So maybe some form of flowing governement would still be needed to manage things because it's important for the whole group, not everyone might be available at a certain moment to take decisions?

In a lot of places and organizations their are leadership positions. Some might interpret this as a hierarchy. But this does not mean it is a form of control, an STS system. Take Star Wars. Their was the Jedi Council which was a group that made decisions for the whole of the Jedis and the school. In fact, Anakin rebelled against them because he felt like their judgment was no better than his (or Palpatine's). But would you not say that the Jedi Council was a form of hierarchy? You could not say that they were an STS system, yet decisions were made by the leaders who formed a hierarchy. Why? Because their vision and intent was in STO origin, so that their decisions were for the benefit of the whole.

The devil is in the details.

 

[Beau]

Yet, I did find the Faun's behaviour manipulative and ambiguous.

This may be, but the Faun had a power over Ofelia which made his actions quite less than what he really could have done to her. He could have killed her at any time - in fact I expected him to try, though he never did. He could have never came back a second time after she ate in the monster's lair (which was a directive in order to help Ofelia survive). All these things defy him being evil.

Plus, this realm is underground. In mythology, that is the land of the netherworld or Hell. That's why I've got mixed feelings and could'nt say for sure that this realm is STO.

Yes, this thought came to me as well. But look at the situation aboveground. You could say the situation was very much hellish, considering the actions of the Captain.

 

[Adaryn]

It's just a thought but in my opinion STO does not mean that you can't have goals that belongs to you only (although I suppose the term you isn't like we intend it on 3D), that you'd maybe want to follow things that other people might not be interested in, which does not mean that it can't benefit the group after all.

I didn't mean that by "no government", it meant that people couldn't have personal goals, but as their understanding and orientation would be the same (that is : in STO, respect for Life and celebration of Life in all its manifestations, respect of free will, and creativity) I don't think there would be necessity for a government. Or if you want, people could meet sometimes and decide common goals together, but that would be all people and not a few leaders taking decisions for the great mass. So I wouldn't call it a government, which according to the dictionary, means 'an authority which rules'.

It's not an easy concept to think of imho and I may be far off the reality of a STO society.

So may I. I just have hints from what I understood of the C's and other readings.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

As far as I could tell, no one forced Ofelia to do anything. I was half-expecting to watch the Faun force her to do things against her will, but that never happened.

But couldn't you say the same thing about religion or other similar control mechanisms?

What do we know? We know the faun was manipulative. We also know religions are manipulative. Both use methods to get one to choose, of their own free will, to do what the manipulator wants them to do. But can we conclude that because in many cases religions are "evil", that the faun is evil? To do so we would need to form a syllogism like the following:

1) the faun is manipulative
2) all manipulation is evil
3) therefore the faun is evil

But is premise 2 true? Was V evil for manipulating Evey in the prison scenes of V for Vendetta? Were the C's evil for manipulating Laura be telling her that her friend was an extremely STO entity, when in fact she was not (from Adventures Series)? Was G evil for manipulating his students to be emotionally triggered? Is the choice between A and B influences not a choice, but an ultimatum? Is 7D evil for manipulating us with this illusion called "reality"? In short, I do not think premise 2 is true.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

In a lot of places and organizations their are leadership positions. Some might interpret this as a hierarchy. But this does not mean it is a form of control, an STS system.

I agree, a leader can be someone who simply knows more and does more, and so leads by example. But only cuz others choose to "follow" that person by going in the same direction, that person just happened to be ahead of others by virtue of doing more and knowing more.

Take Star Wars. Their was the Jedi Council which was a group that made decisions for the whole of the Jedis and the school. In fact, Anakin rebelled against them because he felt like their judgment was no better than his (or Palpatine's).
But would you not say that the Jedi Council was a form of hierarchy? You could not say that they were an STS system, yet decisions were made by the leaders who formed a hierarchy.

My impression of the Jedi is different. I see some STO behavior but I am nevertheless left with the impression that they are STS. They do solve their problems through "killing the bad guys", they are expert assassins, and they spend their whole lives training to fight and kill and to lead armies and machinery of war into battle.

Why? Because their vision and intent was in STO origin, so that their decisions were for the benefit of the whole.

But would an STO being or group decide what is for the benefit of the whole? Or would they leave this decision to the whole of the population and simply assist in the direction that is chosen by the whole, assuming that the the being agrees with the direction as well?

My impression of this dynamic is that all STO beings simply naturally go in a certain direction, and they join/network with others going in that same direction. Nobody makes a decision on behalf of anybody else, they simply naturally join up because of collinearity.

This group is a good analogy I think. Laura and the group are going in a certain direction, and they created this forum as a networking tool to assist the progress. Those who join this group do so because they are collinear. Those who are not are free to make their own groups and go in their own directions. Some people complain when they get banned from this group that their free will or freedom of speech is "stifled". But this forum is an extension of this group much like our own limbs or our own energy. If we give our arms and legs or our energy to others, we won't be able to do anything at all. So by not allowing others to feed on our energy we preserve our ability to function. And I know that possession/ownership is an STS concept, but I don't think we possess/own energy, it's just part of us, like a medium or tool that makes it possible for consciousness to accomplish a goal. Similarly this forum is also such a medium/tool, and if we let others hijack it for their own purposes, it's like letting them hijack our own arms and legs and energy for their own purposes. It makes is unable to accomplish our goal, which requires networking, which this forum is designed to be used for.

But where the analogy differs from the Jedi is it seems that the Jedi are not just doing their thing and going in their direction and letting others join them. They do appear to make decisions on behalf of an entire world. And I don't think this is STO. They may want what's "best" for everyone, but I don't think anyone can make that decision on behalf of anyone else, nevermind on behalf of an entire world of people, osit.

hkoehli, what you said also reminds me of the "scratch test" that is done on this forum for new members joining. This is also manipulating by challenging their assumptions and sacred cows in a pretty direct way, which often predictably results in negative emotions on behalf of the one being scratched. But we do this as a mirror and if they are willing and able to overcome their mechanical reaction, to help them see themselves and their sacred cows, and to grow and learn as a result. Or, it can just piss them off and they storm out and slam the "door" shut and never return.

And it would seem that in the last task, the Faun was manipulating Ofelia into allowing her little brother to be hurt in order to get her promised reward. But his intention was the opposite of what he appeared to want, he really wanted to test her ability to withstand the manipulation and to act selflessly. Similarly, V wanted to test Eva if she can withstand the suffering and act selflessly. And it would seem that the C's would also want Laura to not get into the habit of trusting them, so perhaps for that purpose they might even say things that can be blatantly false, which might present Laura with a slight shock but keep her "on her toes" and not to slack and begin to habitually trust what is said all the time, and to continue doing the necessary Work to figure things out.

But then, in light of the law of 3, what was Faun's purpose to manipulate Ofelia in the tasks other than the last?

 

[Beau]

My impression of the Jedi is different. I see some STO behavior but I am nevertheless left with the impression that they are STS. They do solve their problems through "killing the bad guys", they are expert assassins, and they spend their whole lives training to fight and kill and to lead armies and machinery of war into battle.

The battle between good and evil can't be fought with niceties. We can't sit like monks and not do anything to offset entropy. Don't you think that by exposing the lies around us we are also "killing the bad guys", metaphorically? The world would be much better off without psychopaths, yes? Then if your aim is to make people aware of how psychopaths operate in order to completely wipe out their effect on this world, you would effectively be "killing the bad guys".

Furthermore, any action which furthers your aim to "defeat the bad guys" or reduce the influence of psychopaths is moral and correct. ANY! Gurdjeff talks about this in Meetings with Remarkable Men, if you haven't read it then you should. He lies, he cheats, he steals from people around him, all to help him do what had to be done to accomplish his aim. Here's one example from the book:

Arriving in New Samarkand, I took a room in the house of a local inhabitant
on the outskirts of the town, and went off at once to the post office to
see if my money had come from Tiflis, but it had not yet arrived. Pondering
on where to get money I decided to earn some by making artificial paper
flowers. For this purpose I immediately went to a shop to buy coloured
paper, but, calculating that for my fifty kopeks I could get very little, I
decided simply to buy some thin white paper and a little aniline dye of
different colours and to colour the paper myself. In this way for a trifling
sum I could produce a large quantity of flowers.

From the shop I went to the town gardens to rest on a bench in the shade of
the trees. My Philos sat down beside me. Buried in my thoughts, I looked at
the trees where sparrows flitted from branch to branch enjoying the
stillness of the afternoon. Suddenly the thought entered my head: 'Why not
try to make money with the sparrows? The inhabitants of this place, the
Sarts, are very fond of canaries and other kinds of song birds; is a sparrow
any worse than a canary?'

On the street which ran alongside the town gardens was a cabstand, where a
number of drivers were resting and dozing on their boxes in the afternoon
heat. I went over and plucked from the horses' tails the hairs I needed,
made snares of them and set them in various places, Philos watching me all
the time with great attention. A sparrow soon fell into one of the snares. I
carefully took it out and carried it home.

At the house I asked the landlady for scissors, clipped my sparrow to the
shape of a canary, and then coloured it fantastically with the aniline dyes.
I took this sparrow to Old Samarkand, where I immediately sold it, claiming
that it was a special 'American canary'. I charged two roubles for it. With
the money I at once bought several simple painted cages and from then on
began selling my sparrows in cages. In two weeks I sold about eighty of
these American canaries.

The day after I stopped taking Philos with me, he disappeared from the house
early in the morning and only returned in the evening, tired and covered
with dirt, and solemnly placed on my bed a sparrow—to be sure, a dead one.
This was repeated each day; he would leave early in the morning and would
invariably bring back and place on my bed a dead sparrow.

I did not risk a long stay in Samarkand. I was afraid that the devil would
play a joke, and that my sparrows might suddenly get wet in the rain or that
some American canary in its cage might take a fancy to bathing in its
drinking trough, and then indeed there would be a great uproar, as my
American canaries would be turned into disfigured, clipped and miserable
sparrows. So I hastened to get away with my skin whole.

Would you consider G's actions to be STS? Without considering the context, the details, you will always have a subjective moral judgment. You seem to be stuck on the idea that actions are to be judged without considering the substance that they entail.