Political Ponerology - New Edition (Now Available!)

Approaching Infinity said:
In one of his viral interviews he says he isn't convinced by the psychopathy theory, but he hasn't yet read Ponerology, so we'll see if it changes his mind.
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I first happened on this idea when he was interview on the Aubrey Marcus Podcast. I have a pretty big bone to pick with the message of AMP at large, but he does feature people who I admire and like to listen to from time to time.
Anyway, the two of them got into a kind of circular Q and A in this particular interview regarding how things get so dire in the first place. Both refused to acknowledge that Mass Formation Psychosis is due to purposeful malevolence at any point. I’m looking forward to seeing how this develops.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Agreed. There's a note in the new editions' intro that refers to Desmet's work and "MFP" that points out that the concept is most applicable to the hysteroidal cycle. MFP is what puts the pathocrats in power, or solidifies their rule by allowing a Pareto-esque "circulation of elites". I'm looking forward to Desmet's upcoming book to see what he has to say. And he has a copy of Ponerology coming to him in the mail, so we'll see what he thinks about it. In one of his viral interviews he says he isn't convinced by the psychopathy theory, but he hasn't yet read Ponerology, so we'll see if it changes his mind.
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As you are probably one of the persons most deeply immersed in L.'s writings and thoughts, I want to ask you what you think of his take on 'forgiving the psychopaths'? As I was reading the ending chapters again, I was somewhat struck by what he wrote in the chapter of forgiveness – how it's the only way to prevent the ponerogenic process from starting all over again. I might have understood him incorrectly, but basically what he said was that once the pathocracy has collapsed, we must treat the psychopaths as humanely and forgivinly as possible. In one passage he even writes about how (I'm paraphrasing heavily) through psychotherapy the psychopaths can be helped to be more normal. L. also wrote about how he thought that the death sentences in the Nuerenberg trials were a mistake.

Compared to what e.g. Hare and Cleckley wrote about how they thought that it was impossible to cure/heal the essential psychopaths (and even if it would appear that they'd be cured, they most likely would just be fooling you) I find L.'s take suprisingly optimistic. I'm not saying that L. is wrong with what he wrote but knowing how incurable essential psychopaths probably are I don't see how forgiving them and treating them 'as humanely as possible' would stop them from repeating their evil business. But maybe the point is that even though this treatment of psychopaths wouldn't work in the sense that it would 'cure' them, it would showcase how a normal non-pathocratic society would treat all of it members despite their 'evilness'. Is that what L. is saying?
 
aragorn said:
As you are probably one of the persons most deeply immersed in L.'s writings and thoughts, I want to ask you what you think of his take on 'forgiving the psychopaths'? As I was reading the ending chapters again, I was somewhat struck by what he wrote in the chapter of forgiveness – how it's the only way to prevent the ponerogenic process from starting all over again. I might have understood him incorrectly, but basically what he said was that once the pathocracy has collapsed, we must treat the psychopaths as humanely and forgivinly as possible.
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Yes, that's his perspective. (Though note that there is less on forgiveness in the Polish version.) He doesn't think revenge works, or harsh punishment (though he leaves that option open for those who committed the most heinous crimes). Personally, I have no problem with the death penalty for some crimes, but in a political situation, forgiveness/amnesty is the only practical option. An existing pathocratic regime is much less likely to give up power without some kind of security guarantees. And if they are violently overthrown, that increases the chance of simply replacing one ponerogenic group with another, or creating the conditions of mass resentment that will nurture such a group some time in the future.

There are plenty of examples of different approaches from the 20th century, all of which show (IMO) the problems with a lack of understanding of ponerology. In the case of Nazi Germany, you had "denazification" and Nuremberg, side by side with Project Paperclip, the takeover of German spy rings, etc. L argues that there wouldn't be a neo-Nazi movement if Nazism was properly diagnosed rather than treated simply as an "evil ideology". In the Soviet Union, there was decommunization, but it was really a revolution from above, and tons of Communist officials simply kept their positions in the new government. The fact that there was room for new elites to take some positions led to a degree of "depathologization", but just look at the 90s - it was a new kind of hell.

In the Eastern bloc countries, they tried a variety of approaches, most of which were overwhelmingly peaceful. Some barred ex-communist officials and/or secret police from political positions, at least for a time. Others, like Poland, shared power. Communists were allowed to rebrand and integrate into the new system.

His take on this is similar to his take on legal punishment in general. Liberalization of crime laws leads to more crime, but harsh laws keep ponerogenesis active. You can't liberalize laws without a corresponding increase in psychological knowledge and effective means to replace those laws with something just as effective. At least, that's his perspective. He doesn't go into detail of what that would look like. So, it's the same with pathocracy. Blanket forgiveness without a ponerological understanding is a recipe for disaster - but so is imposing harsh punishments, just in a different way.
aragorn said:
In one passage he even writes about how (I'm paraphrasing heavily) through psychotherapy the psychopaths can be helped to be more normal.
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Yep. While he doesn't expand on it, he does cite Dennis Doren's 1987 book (Understanding and Treating the Psychopath (Wiley Series on Personality Processes): Doren, Dennis M.: 9780471836506: Amazon.com: Books) in his 2000 booklet on ponerology. I have only read excerpts so far, so don't know his perspective, though.
aragorn said:
L. also wrote about how he thought that the death sentences in the Nuerenberg trials were a mistake.
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Yep, he thought it would have been much more fruitful to keep them alive to study them.
aragorn said:
Compared to what e.g. Hare and Cleckley wrote about how they thought that it was impossible to cure/heal the essential psychopaths (and even if it would appear that they'd be cured, they most likely would just be fooling you) I find L.'s take suprisingly optimistic.
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Lobaczewski isn't saying it's possible to cure or heal them, just that they can be influenced to be less dangerous. Is he overly optimistic? Maybe/probably? "Decompression model" therapy in psychopathic kids seems to have positive effects. Then there's Samenow's case study in Criminal Mind. It's not healing so much as stimulus/response conditioning, as far as I can tell. All the failures of treatment of psychopaths don't necessarily imply that nothing can be done to change their behavior - only that the techniques that work on normal people don't work on psychopaths, and in some cases make them worse.
aragorn said:
I'm not saying that L. is wrong with what he wrote but knowing how incurable essential psychopaths probably are I don't see how forgiving them and treating them 'as humanely as possible' would stop them from repeating their evil business.
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I get the impression he thinks that known psychopaths should be monitored in some way.
aragorn said:
But maybe the point is that even though this treatment of psychopaths wouldn't work in the sense that it would 'cure' them, it would showcase how a normal non-pathocratic society would treat all of it members despite their 'evilness'. Is that what L. is saying?
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That's the impression I get. He thinks that psychopaths should be treated humanely - but also that they shouldn't be allowed to occupy positions of power and leadership. It's totally possible he's wrong, of course. But what he thinks about forgiveness can't be separated from everything else he writes. He's not saying, "all you need to do is forgive, and everything will be okay" - he's saying it's an essential part of a much wider program.
 
Thanks AI for your detailed anwers! I guess this boils down to the 'age old' question of how to fight evil: if you kill the bad dudes, are you then as bad as them? I'm sure this question could be developed in a extended philosophilcal dicussion with no guarantees of reaching a satisfying answer. At least right now, I think that the right and morally justified course of action depends on the specific case and the details; if there's, for instance, a genocide going on (done/orchestrated by the psychopaths) then stopping it by force, by killing the crazies, would in my books be justified and even necessary. Of course, one could argue that incarcerating them would be the best option, which I objectively think it is, but during a fierce battle with 'crazies' this kind of noble option might be very difficult to achieve.

It's interesting to think of this question in the context of what's going on in the Ukraine. I'm sure Putin et. co. have thought long and hard (for years!) in the same vein and reached the conclusion that using force is now the only option that will stop these crazies, at least for now.
 
We have Odysseus' approach when he returned home and killed the beggars (psychopaths) who attacked Penelope and his property. They had a chance to change but they didn't. We remember that the soul is important and not the body, there are several ways to restrain psychopaths.

1. Gather psychopaths in one place, for example on an island where there is no food and water, give them weapons and some food and let them exterminate each other. If the body is contaminated with viruses, parasites, bacteria, then you will not feed them, but kill them.
In this case, they carry out the death penalty among themselves, and that is much more humane for society and individuals who do not want to and who cannot bleed their hands.
Psychopathy is like a virus and is related to OPS forces with 4D that feed on death, suffering and pain from the etheric side.
In essence, with psychopathy, we transfer the problem to 5th density, so let them deal with them there.

2. The approach to treating 3rd density psychopaths can be to cause them clinical death and then bring them back to life! For them, that would be an observation and such a shock that most would dramatically change their behavior. This multidimensional treatment can also be performed on extreme cases, such as drug addiction, alcoholism and other deviant behaviors. Of course, this applies to those with a soul who have chosen evil and darkness, and who have been manipulated by 4-density OPS forces. Organic Portals are already something else, so the attitude towards them is completely different. if we remove psychopaths from them then they will have a more normal approach to developing towards their individual soul.

These are some concepts for thinking and there is certainly much more if we include spiritual knowledge and science, and philosophy and religious concepts that do not violate the free will of individuals.





Imamo Odisejev pristup kada se vratio kući i pobio prosce(psihopate) koji su mu napadali Penelopu i imanje. Oni su imali šansu da se promene ali to nisu uradili. Setimo se da je duša bitna a ne tela, postoji više načina za obuzdavanje psihopata.

1. Skupiti psihopate na jedno mesto, na primer na ostrvo gde nema hrane i vode, dati im oružije i nešto hrane i pustiti ih da se istrebe između sebe. Ako telo kontaminiraju virusi, paraziti, bakterije onda ih nećete hraniti, već pobiti.
U ovom slučaju smrtnu kaznu vrše oni sami između sebe i to je mnogo humanije za društvo i individue koje ne žele i koji ne mogu da okrvave ruke.
Psihopatija je kao virus i vezana je za OPS snage sa 4D koji se hrane smrću, patnjom i bolom sa eterične strane.
U suštini sa psihopatijom prebacujemo problem na 5 denzitet pa neka se oni tamo sa njima nose.

2. Pristup lečenja psihopata u 3 denzitetu može biti da im se izazove klinička smrt i onda da se vrate ponovo u život! To bi za njih bilo sagledavanje i takav šok da bi većina dramatično promenila ponašanje. To višedimenzionalno lečenje može se vršiti i na ekstremne slučajeve, na primer narkomanije, alkoholizma i ostalih devijantnih ponašanja. Naravno, to se odnosi na one sa dušom koji su izabrali zlo i tamu, i koji su izmanipulicani od strane OPS snaga sa 4 denziteta. Organski Portali su već nešto drugo tako da je prema njima odnos sasvim drugačiji. ako otklonimo od njih psihopate onda će imati normalniji pristup za razvijanje ka svojoj individualnoj duši.

Ovo su neki koncepti za razmišljanje i svakako postoji još mnogo toga ako uključimo i spiritualno znanje i nauku, i filozofiju i religiozne koncepte koje ne narušavaju slobodnu volju individua.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Lobaczewski isn't saying it's possible to cure or heal them, just that they can be influenced to be less dangerous. Is he overly optimistic? Maybe/probably? "Decompression model" therapy in psychopathic kids seems to have positive effects. Then there's Samenow's case study in Criminal Mind. It's not healing so much as stimulus/response conditioning, as far as I can tell. All the failures of treatment of psychopaths don't necessarily imply that nothing can be done to change their behavior - only that the techniques that work on normal people don't work on psychopaths, and in some cases make them worse.
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The only piece of the puzzle that Lobaczewski was missing regarding psychopaths was the 4D influence/manipulation of them, which is normal due to that hiperdimensional reality is hard if not almost impossible to prove in scientific terms, at least with known methods. Knowing those facts could make the idea of forgiveness to be reconsidered altogether, however the idea to keep them alive for study purposes sounds much better.
 
Vulcan59 said:
Normalising psychopathy...:-(

bigthink.com

How psychopathy might be an evolutionary adaptation

Instead of a mental illness, some research suggests that psychopathy — in moderation — is a reasonable life strategy.
bigthink.com bigthink.com
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Well, of course. Since they are trying to normalize pedophilia, it's not a surprise they are, also, trying to normalize psychopathy itself. They are a bunch of depraved, disgusting monsters who are trying to do this.
 
Bojan71 said:
We have Odysseus' approach when he returned home and killed the beggars (psychopaths) who attacked Penelope and his property. They had a chance to change but they didn't. We remember that the soul is important and not the body, there are several ways to restrain psychopaths.

1. Gather psychopaths in one place, for example on an island where there is no food and water, give them weapons and some food and let them exterminate each other. If the body is contaminated with viruses, parasites, bacteria, then you will not feed them, but kill them.
In this case, they carry out the death penalty among themselves, and that is much more humane for society and individuals who do not want to and who cannot bleed their hands.
Psychopathy is like a virus and is related to OPS forces with 4D that feed on death, suffering and pain from the etheric side.
In essence, with psychopathy, we transfer the problem to 5th density, so let them deal with them there.

2. The approach to treating 3rd density psychopaths can be to cause them clinical death and then bring them back to life! For them, that would be an observation and such a shock that most would dramatically change their behavior. This multidimensional treatment can also be performed on extreme cases, such as drug addiction, alcoholism and other deviant behaviors. Of course, this applies to those with a soul who have chosen evil and darkness, and who have been manipulated by 4-density OPS forces. Organic Portals are already something else, so the attitude towards them is completely different. if we remove psychopaths from them then they will have a more normal approach to developing towards their individual soul.

These are some concepts for thinking and there is certainly much more if we include spiritual knowledge and science, and philosophy and religious concepts that do not violate the free will of individuals.





Imamo Odisejev pristup kada se vratio kući i pobio prosce(psihopate) koji su mu napadali Penelopu i imanje. Oni su imali šansu da se promene ali to nisu uradili. Setimo se da je duša bitna a ne tela, postoji više načina za obuzdavanje psihopata.

1. Skupiti psihopate na jedno mesto, na primer na ostrvo gde nema hrane i vode, dati im oružije i nešto hrane i pustiti ih da se istrebe između sebe. Ako telo kontaminiraju virusi, paraziti, bakterije onda ih nećete hraniti, već pobiti.
U ovom slučaju smrtnu kaznu vrše oni sami između sebe i to je mnogo humanije za društvo i individue koje ne žele i koji ne mogu da okrvave ruke.
Psihopatija je kao virus i vezana je za OPS snage sa 4D koji se hrane smrću, patnjom i bolom sa eterične strane.
U suštini sa psihopatijom prebacujemo problem na 5 denzitet pa neka se oni tamo sa njima nose.

2. Pristup lečenja psihopata u 3 denzitetu može biti da im se izazove klinička smrt i onda da se vrate ponovo u život! To bi za njih bilo sagledavanje i takav šok da bi većina dramatično promenila ponašanje. To višedimenzionalno lečenje može se vršiti i na ekstremne slučajeve, na primer narkomanije, alkoholizma i ostalih devijantnih ponašanja. Naravno, to se odnosi na one sa dušom koji su izabrali zlo i tamu, i koji su izmanipulicani od strane OPS snaga sa 4 denziteta. Organski Portali su već nešto drugo tako da je prema njima odnos sasvim drugačiji. ako otklonimo od njih psihopate onda će imati normalniji pristup za razvijanje ka svojoj individualnoj duši.

Ovo su neki koncepti za razmišljanje i svakako postoji još mnogo toga ako uključimo i spiritualno znanje i nauku, i filozofiju i religiozne koncepte koje ne narušavaju slobodnu volju individua.
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I find both of the ideas above cruel and weird. I don’t think it is a good idea to treat evil people cruelly, inhumanly or in sadistic ways. More then that, I find the very idea to even think that something like that would be a good idea strange. What good should come out treating Psychopaths like they tried humans? Fighting or stopping evil by committing evil is a strange idea to me.

That doesn’t mean I‘m against the death penalty per se or against a justified defensive action by taking them out (like it is done in Ukraine now) or in order to protect normal people. I just don’t think doing it in inhuman and cruel ways is good at all.
 
Cosmos said:
That doesn’t mean I‘m against the death penalty per se or against a justified defensive action by taking them out (like it is done in Ukraine now) or in order to protect normal people. I just don’t think doing it in inhuman and cruel ways is good at all.
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Agreed! I think you would be acting as a “psychopath” to the universe as well if your attitude will be in similar way of being cruel or inhuman.
 
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