This may be the post you are referring to, @palestine :
Session 28 June 1997
And there is this:
Session22 February 2010
I think the above is, basically, about gluten carrying grains that are not so good for many of us.
fwiw
Potential Food and Energy Shortage Across the World
- Thread starter PabloAngello
- Start date
Session 28 June 1997
Session22 February 2010
fwiw
palestine
Dagobah Resident
When a 3D STS (which, apparently, we all are) is interested in being a 4D STO by giving up 3D STS functions and necessities, it could present a real dilemma. What if, for example, one discovers having a toilet is 3D STS. What is one to do?
I think that you are raising a question of importance, a basic one, and one that has already been discussed extensively here - so I am sure that we may be able to find very precise takes on the matter. If I may explain:
The toilet example is a very polarized example, almost caricatural, and it shows that "because we own the toilet" - "it's STS". I would tell you: not the toilet.
That's because, as you said, it serves a function. Here, we can sew a starting point of the "precise take on the matter" that I suggested already exists somewhere on the forum, especially if we add @irjO 's quote:
I would think in terms of "if it's a matter of function, human functionality, basic functions - it's "okay". Well, basically.
I can see how this is a matter that requires permanent "reflexion" so that we need to think and discern things each time.
So, the toilets would not be STS per se, while the ownership of several things, would be.
Thing I can see, here, is that there seems to exist a "threshold": if agriculture would be STS, and not a toilet, or a pan, or flowing water in the kitchen, there is a domain where "it's too much STS" and another domain where "it is justified because we need it". So: what's the border (if ther eis such thing). Does the border vary (depending on our spiritual approach of it)?
Again, I believe that there exists a very precise "take", allowing us to understand what is what
I wouldn't want to express subjective takes. But that's what I see.
I have been thinking of the garden: if, let's say, I keep half of my vegetables and give the other half to an anthill, or drop it in nature, would it work? But this would not prevent the fact that I digged up earth that would be supposed to belong to the Planet. Many animals, in it, because of my "new buildup", cannot "be". At the same time, God provided humans with an environment. It is made for us to "be" within it, not oustide of it. 2D and 3D are basic supports for "being". It could be that as soon as we take more than required, it becomes STS.
In addition, @Nienna quoted several sessions in which it was said how grains culture were not that good. I assume that there exists different types of people, different "tribes", so that this may not apply to all (but still to a majority). Some feed on grain, they need grain, it's their food, so they would need to farm grains. But overall, it could be that 90% of people don't need grains.
I can see a whole developing and motion, in terms of farming, gardening, etc, because of grain, and the grain problem has to deal with a basic & normal keto diet, too.
The above is what I "see": do others have additional ideas? Can somebody refine this, or does somebody have the perfect sentence that reconcile all? (what/when is it STO, what/when is something STS?)
@irjO 's quote is very high-level, as it provides a basic answer to a wide range of "problems". For instance, veganism. I assume there exist a few people who need to go vegan because it's their "being state". But for most people, going vegan would go against what @irjO explains. This is the core problem of veganism: people don't eat meat in order to save the planet; but, I believe that "God" wants us to be, simply put. God laid down a planet with resources. To stop eating meat is a noble strategy; sacrificing one self for the Big Blue Marble. This is honorable, I would say. But there seems to be a share of "disrespect to God", at the same time, because we wouldn't be honoring the body he gave us. No pun: martyrdom and sacrifice have STO existence, in very few instances, I believe.
So the core problem of veganism is that you stop sustaining your "machinery" and it's bad. "Meat", we need, to "think" and "breathe", and God wants us to eat meat. Stopping meat would be a step too far in terms of the basics.
Perhaps it has to do with what's "absolutely essential"?
In old TV show "Survivors", we see Abby and Jenny trying to go agriculture:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9u10rq?start=233
That's where Paul appears, and at 7 min 10...
... Paul explains that growing things is all part of a cycle, so that the idea would be to frame our gardening efforts, respectfully in regard of a whole, already existing.
So it "depend", I suppose.
Here is an additional example, about the hypothesis of "variability of STS/STO", for the back garden.
I have books, a lot of books. I buy many used books, and I accumulate those. This is pretty STS, because each time that I come back home with a new bunch of books, I feel like "yeah". And I store my books, and I have plenty, and I like it. This is something that I started to do recently. Before, I owned nothing. This ruins my emotional state, my mental, the trust in myself because I feel that I wouldn't be able to leave my "library" (I would but I can see that it holds me a little). I started stacking something, "physicality" - and I became a bit more one of a materialist, a "consumer".
The opposite side of the coin (positive), is that I like it. I recognize myself into piles of books. It allows me to "be". When a kid, there weren't computers, and all we did was "handwriting" and reading books (or going outside). When I was 18 y.o., I became mesmerized with those "computers" and Nintendo; in addition, this was for me the moment I had to go to work. What kicked in, was the feeling to "own a house" and to "earn my first million". Slowly, but surely, "the handwriting" & "the books" left the Psyche, so that, today, when I handwrite and read paperback books, it reconnects myself, my Psyche - with what I believe is quite a more authentic "self". I have glimpses of "me as a kid". I invested two decades in this, I shaped my being, when a children, according to books and hadwriting. Handwriting and books simply allow me to feel my old self. Crazy experience.
Another critically good point, with the stacking of books, is that I believe that a pile of books, with specific knowledge, could act as a spiritual catalyst. It would form a sort of "whole", in terms of energy, and this is not something to underconsider. Many books, much potential knowledge - that would be "an Information Field" - and I am sure that The Information Field appreciates this.
I am thus, here, suggesting how the accumulation of books may have a STO side of some sort.
Difficult to expand on a garden. Could be that a variety of plants would act as a positive catalyst for the Information Field. One would need an anthill, a bee hive, and to frame it within the whole existing framework, instead of going "my own idea of ... and ... or ...". Not sure.
Imagine that you start a back garden, and that you pray in it three times a day. One may do "spiritual gardening". I am sure that nature, being part of the whole Universe, would resonate with the spirituality of prayers. It could be that if we do this with a relatively calm mindset, no expectation of whatever sort - just doing it - we may achieve results.
At this stage, it could be that one could provide a high fertility rate, in a garden. Growing spiritual vegetables. If I follow Paul's idea, there would exist a spiritual framework to achive, "it's all part of a cycle" - so that garden spirituality would have to do with achieving this, and not "growing spiritual vegetables" at all cost. This would be a positive side effect.
This is just an idea and I don't know if this is wrong. At least, if you don't do this for "having super vegetables" to eat, it's not materialist. If you genuinely "pray", not even knowing about the outcome, well, it would be akin to go to church. Ultimately, gardening implies interactions between matter and spirituality, 3D, 4D, and one would be somehow applying the principles of the STS > 4D STO transition ... to plants. Why not. If all is connected in a "big" basic whole, featuring 2D, 3D, and so on, I believe this is how it works.
And so, here, a garden would potentially become "useful", or less STS. Can it become STO?
And so, I tried to show a situation where we would have "gardening for one self in my house, my stomach, selling, my waller & money ... STS" - towards - something objectively beneficial. After all, the Planet has a 2D and 3D side, and those, before being STS, are balanced supports for the Planet, so not negative or STS per se, and thus available for "Service".
@Nienna thank you for your quotes! It was in this exact context that I remember the take, and the following quotes express a specter of ideas that would make one consider "agriculture is STS":
We now know (thanks to the forum), that the introduction of agriculture is recent, so that it does not "bode" well, in terms of original paleochristianity: the Goddess, hunter-gatherers - all implies we were deisgned to interact within an environment in a different manner. I am wondering if this extends to raising cattle, too.
And the introduction of grains adds up to the above.
Overall, the idea of "cultivating" plants appears as an artificial process. It is difficult not to feel "bad" when reading about this, so I wouldn't start up with ruining our back garden "because grain agriculture is STS". I believe that in term sof what's STS, interactions with others may be extremely more relevant than "a back garden". It is interesting to know, to orient ourselves more in this world. I wouldn't feel "alarmed" in owning a back garden, especially if I am starving and really need some food.
@Nienna, the exact quote was from Chu, in a post during a conversation. I cannot remember it precisely, but it was within the above context, and I believe she expressed the take "forget about vegetables" "agriculture is STS". Unless it was "vegetables, etc, forget about all of this, it's STS" (I believe it was as such!).
I was wondering if it would be possible to have a "denominator", to identify for sure, what falls into STS or STO. I assume it's all in the acronym - STS - if it is of service to "Self". To that, I would add, that we know of "Serving Others through Self", which is STO. This would require "thinking" and adapting, depending on the matter. A garden can become a problem, and a garden can not be a problem.
If you had a way, to formulate a sentence, about this "equation", I would be happy to read about it, please
Thank you!
Note: I have been stating many many takes, about various things, and I really only "tried" to "discuss matters" the best I could, without going outside of the road. I am trying to be clear on those matters, because those matter a lot. Please excuse my rant about books, garden, vegetables. Those are examples, that I discussed, to analyse STO/STS principles, in an hypothetical manner. I understand this is the core of the forum, than to figure out those things, and that it has already been extensively discussed. Well - I hope that I wasn't off track (or too much off track)!
It all depends if the purpose is to serve to others more than yourself.
Another example, there is a story that Gurdjieff used to tell to this followers involving a woman named Simone (if I remember correctly) who literally painted regular birds, to make them look like different exotic species, in order to sell them to support a community in need.
Was the woman lying to people in order to sell the birds? Yes. It’s lying considered bad? Well in regular terms yes, but in this case, she did it for something bigger than her, the money wasn’t for herself but for her community who couldn’t support themselves. This would make the situation more STO. Hopefully that example can give you an idea of a STO vs STS type of situation.
That is the purpose of the forum, we are here to learn together. A different case however, would be of someone who would comes here to preach knowledge without any support to back up such knowledge, and who clearly hasn’t read any of the recommended materials, then that would just be noise, which it has happened many times before.
If I remember correctly, Gurdjieff did this himself in order to make money for his school. Not saying that this woman didn't do it, but I do remember reading that Gurdjieff painted sparrows to look like canaries and sold them as such to make money for his school.
Thank you! You are right, I think I might have mixed characters from other of his multiple stories or examples lol
Wandering Star
The Living Force
I would interpret it in terms of possession.I think that you are raising a question of importance, a basic one, and one that has already been discussed extensively here - so I am sure that we may be able to find very precise takes on the matter. If I may explain:
The toilet example is a very polarized example, almost caricatural, and it shows that "because we own the toilet" - "it's STS". I would tell you: not the toilet.
That's because, as you said, it serves a function. Here, we can sew a starting point of the "precise take on the matter" that I suggested already exists somewhere on the forum, especially if we add @irjO 's quote:
I would think in terms of "if it's a matter of function, human functionality, basic functions - it's "okay". Well, basically.
I can see how this is a matter that requires permanent "reflexion" so that we need to think and discern things each time.
So, the toilets would not be STS per se, while the ownership of several things, would be.
Thing I can see, here, is that there seems to exist a "threshold": if agriculture would be STS, and not a toilet, or a pan, or flowing water in the kitchen, there is a domain where "it's too much STS" and another domain where "it is justified because we need it". So: what's the border (if ther eis such thing). Does the border vary (depending on our spiritual approach of it)?
Again, I believe that there exists a very precise "take", allowing us to understand what is what
I wouldn't want to express subjective takes. But that's what I see.
I have been thinking of the garden: if, let's say, I keep half of my vegetables and give the other half to an anthill, or drop it in nature, would it work? But this would not prevent the fact that I digged up earth that would be supposed to belong to the Planet. Many animals, in it, because of my "new buildup", cannot "be". At the same time, God provided humans with an environment. It is made for us to "be" within it, not oustide of it. 2D and 3D are basic supports for "being". It could be that as soon as we take more than required, it becomes STS.
In addition, @Nienna quoted several sessions in which it was said how grains culture were not that good. I assume that there exists different types of people, different "tribes", so that this may not apply to all (but still to a majority). Some feed on grain, they need grain, it's their food, so they would need to farm grains. But overall, it could be that 90% of people don't need grains.
I can see a whole developing and motion, in terms of farming, gardening, etc, because of grain, and the grain problem has to deal with a basic & normal keto diet, too.
The above is what I "see": do others have additional ideas? Can somebody refine this, or does somebody have the perfect sentence that reconcile all? (what/when is it STO, what/when is something STS?)
@irjO 's quote is very high-level, as it provides a basic answer to a wide range of "problems". For instance, veganism. I assume there exist a few people who need to go vegan because it's their "being state". But for most people, going vegan would go against what @irjO explains. This is the core problem of veganism: people don't eat meat in order to save the planet; but, I believe that "God" wants us to be, simply put. God laid down a planet with resources. To stop eating meat is a noble strategy; sacrificing one self for the Big Blue Marble. This is honorable, I would say. But there seems to be a share of "disrespect to God", at the same time, because we wouldn't be honoring the body he gave us. No pun: martyrdom and sacrifice have STO existence, in very few instances, I believe.
So the core problem of veganism is that you stop sustaining your "machinery" and it's bad. "Meat", we need, to "think" and "breathe", and God wants us to eat meat. Stopping meat would be a step too far in terms of the basics.
Perhaps it has to do with what's "absolutely essential"?
In old TV show "Survivors", we see Abby and Jenny trying to go agriculture:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9u10rq?start=233
That's where Paul appears, and at 7 min 10...
... Paul explains that growing things is all part of a cycle, so that the idea would be to frame our gardening efforts, respectfully in regard of a whole, already existing.
So it "depend", I suppose.
Here is an additional example, about the hypothesis of "variability of STS/STO", for the back garden.
I have books, a lot of books. I buy many used books, and I accumulate those. This is pretty STS, because each time that I come back home with a new bunch of books, I feel like "yeah". And I store my books, and I have plenty, and I like it. This is something that I started to do recently. Before, I owned nothing. This ruins my emotional state, my mental, the trust in myself because I feel that I wouldn't be able to leave my "library" (I would but I can see that it holds me a little). I started stacking something, "physicality" - and I became a bit more one of a materialist, a "consumer".
The opposite side of the coin (positive), is that I like it. I recognize myself into piles of books. It allows me to "be". When a kid, there weren't computers, and all we did was "handwriting" and reading books (or going outside). When I was 18 y.o., I became mesmerized with those "computers" and Nintendo; in addition, this was for me the moment I had to go to work. What kicked in, was the feeling to "own a house" and to "earn my first million". Slowly, but surely, "the handwriting" & "the books" left the Psyche, so that, today, when I handwrite and read paperback books, it reconnects myself, my Psyche - with what I believe is quite a more authentic "self". I have glimpses of "me as a kid". I invested two decades in this, I shaped my being, when a children, according to books and hadwriting. Handwriting and books simply allow me to feel my old self. Crazy experience.
Another critically good point, with the stacking of books, is that I believe that a pile of books, with specific knowledge, could act as a spiritual catalyst. It would form a sort of "whole", in terms of energy, and this is not something to underconsider. Many books, much potential knowledge - that would be "an Information Field" - and I am sure that The Information Field appreciates this.
I am thus, here, suggesting how the accumulation of books may have a STO side of some sort.
Difficult to expand on a garden. Could be that a variety of plants would act as a positive catalyst for the Information Field. One would need an anthill, a bee hive, and to frame it within the whole existing framework, instead of going "my own idea of ... and ... or ...". Not sure.
Imagine that you start a back garden, and that you pray in it three times a day. One may do "spiritual gardening". I am sure that nature, being part of the whole Universe, would resonate with the spirituality of prayers. It could be that if we do this with a relatively calm mindset, no expectation of whatever sort - just doing it - we may achieve results.
At this stage, it could be that one could provide a high fertility rate, in a garden. Growing spiritual vegetables. If I follow Paul's idea, there would exist a spiritual framework to achive, "it's all part of a cycle" - so that garden spirituality would have to do with achieving this, and not "growing spiritual vegetables" at all cost. This would be a positive side effect.
This is just an idea and I don't know if this is wrong. At least, if you don't do this for "having super vegetables" to eat, it's not materialist. If you genuinely "pray", not even knowing about the outcome, well, it would be akin to go to church. Ultimately, gardening implies interactions between matter and spirituality, 3D, 4D, and one would be somehow applying the principles of the STS > 4D STO transition ... to plants. Why not. If all is connected in a "big" basic whole, featuring 2D, 3D, and so on, I believe this is how it works.
And so, here, a garden would potentially become "useful", or less STS. Can it become STO?
And so, I tried to show a situation where we would have "gardening for one self in my house, my stomach, selling, my waller & money ... STS" - towards - something objectively beneficial. After all, the Planet has a 2D and 3D side, and those, before being STS, are balanced supports for the Planet, so not negative or STS per se, and thus available for "Service".
@Nienna thank you for your quotes! It was in this exact context that I remember the take, and the following quotes express a specter of ideas that would make one consider "agriculture is STS":
We now know (thanks to the forum), that the introduction of agriculture is recent, so that it does not "bode" well, in terms of original paleochristianity: the Goddess, hunter-gatherers - all implies we were deisgned to interact within an environment in a different manner. I am wondering if this extends to raising cattle, too.
And the introduction of grains adds up to the above.
Overall, the idea of "cultivating" plants appears as an artificial process. It is difficult not to feel "bad" when reading about this, so I wouldn't start up with ruining our back garden "because grain agriculture is STS". I believe that in term sof what's STS, interactions with others may be extremely more relevant than "a back garden". It is interesting to know, to orient ourselves more in this world. I wouldn't feel "alarmed" in owning a back garden, especially if I am starving and really need some food.
@Nienna, the exact quote was from Chu, in a post during a conversation. I cannot remember it precisely, but it was within the above context, and I believe she expressed the take "forget about vegetables" "agriculture is STS". Unless it was "vegetables, etc, forget about all of this, it's STS" (I believe it was as such!).
I was wondering if it would be possible to have a "denominator", to identify for sure, what falls into STS or STO. I assume it's all in the acronym - STS - if it is of service to "Self". To that, I would add, that we know of "Serving Others through Self", which is STO. This would require "thinking" and adapting, depending on the matter. A garden can become a problem, and a garden can not be a problem.
If you had a way, to formulate a sentence, about this "equation", I would be happy to read about it, please
Thank you!
Note: I have been stating many many takes, about various things, and I really only "tried" to "discuss matters" the best I could, without going outside of the road. I am trying to be clear on those matters, because those matter a lot. Please excuse my rant about books, garden, vegetables. Those are examples, that I discussed, to analyse STO/STS principles, in an hypothetical manner. I understand this is the core of the forum, than to figure out those things, and that it has already been extensively discussed. Well - I hope that I wasn't off track (or too much off track)!
STS owns it, it's mine, not yours.
I have walked with my family through rural areas where there were farms with fruit trees.
Hundreds of kilos of fruit were rotting on the ground under the trees because nobody was picking that fruit.
Now..., on the walk my family and I felt like eating a piece of fruit from one of those trees, but we couldn't do it because it would be stealing.
The land and the trees belonged to someone.
STS owns, STO shares.
Ricardo
The Living Force
American canaries he called them iirc , somewhat apt XD
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