Qualities of essence

RflctnOfU said:
Anthony said:
To complicate things even more, G. said that behind personality lies essence, behind essence lies real I, behind real I lies God.

Would you cite a source for this quote please??

Thanks

Kris
.
Anthony said:
Yes. Maurice Nicoll Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky Volume 4.
Also here in more detail: http://gurdjieffbooks.wordpress.com/2008/03/31/56/

Interesting. I was into Nicoll's commentaries for awhile. Even had the book that was just an index.

I started wondering why the Commentaries are rarely cited in any work of a practical nature. I also noticed that, while the content was mostly Gudjieff, the form was mostly pep-talky and inspirational. I started thinking that Nicoll was combining works of Carl Jung, Gurdjieff and Christian teachings to bring forth his own vision of an institutional religion. In a strange way it seems easy to "take on" or identify with Nicoll's personality as it relates to G's work and yet still walk away with little experiential help. Why is that, I wondered?

Down here at the level of the individual, I think that's maybe related to how personality rarely cites essence for support in what personality thinks and "knows" - fruit-bearing experience being the connecting link of support, I suppose. I think that's kinda funny and tends to point to the gap where personality and essence may disconnect.

Gurdjieff says that essence stops growing in most people around age 6 or 7. No wonder. That's about the time when many children started school and after at least a year of being enculterated, acclimated, socialized and robotized by parents and others in preparation for this public education. Also, by this time in a child's life, many adults have fulfilled their apparent need to stop their children from asking "why?", "what does that mean?", and "how or why does that matter?, or at least labeled these fundamental questions as inappropriate, succeeding in delaying them indefinitely.



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Perceval said:
dugdeep said:
{snipped some good stuff Perceval quoted}
Excellent story Dug and a very interesting observation, and very true I think.

I agree. Thanks for that, dugdeep.
 
Buddy said:
RflctnOfU said:
Anthony said:
To complicate things even more, G. said that behind personality lies essence, behind essence lies real I, behind real I lies God.

Would you cite a source for this quote please??

Thanks

Kris
.
Anthony said:
Yes. Maurice Nicoll Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky Volume 4.
Also here in more detail: http://gurdjieffbooks.wordpress.com/2008/03/31/56/

Interesting. I was into Nicoll's commentaries for awhile. Even had the book that was just an index.

I started wondering why the Commentaries are rarely cited in any work of a practical nature. I also noticed that, while the content was mostly Gudjieff, the form was mostly pep-talky and inspirational. I started thinking that Nicoll was combining works of Carl Jung, Gurdjieff and Christian teachings to bring forth his own vision of an institutional religion. In a strange way it seems easy to "take on" or identify with Nicoll's personality as it relates to G's work and yet still walk away with little experiential help. Why is that, I wondered?

Down here at the level of the individual, I think that's maybe related to how personality rarely cites essence for support in what personality thinks and "knows" - fruit-bearing experience being the connecting link of support, I suppose. I think that's kinda funny and tends to point to the gap where personality and essence may disconnect.

Gurdjieff says that essence stops growing in most people around age 6 or 7. No wonder. That's about the time when many children started school and after at least a year of being enculterated, acclimated, socialized and robotized by parents and others in preparation for this public education. Also, by this time in a child's life, many adults have fulfilled their apparent need to stop their children from asking "why?", "what does that mean?", and "how or why does that matter?, or at least labeled these fundamental questions as inappropriate, succeeding in delaying them indefinitely.



----------------------



Perceval said:
dugdeep said:
{snipped some good stuff Perceval quoted}
Excellent story Dug and a very interesting observation, and very true I think.

I agree. Thanks for that, dugdeep.
Hi Buddy. I had a similar impression of nicoll's work when I read it, at least in terms of nothing 'sticking'. I am reminded of the tale, in meetings, of brothers sez, and ahl.

Kris
 
RflctnOfU said:
Hi Buddy. I had a similar impression of nicoll's work when I read it, at least in terms of nothing 'sticking'. I am reminded of the tale, in meetings, of brothers sez, and ahl.

Kris

Yes, that's it! Thanks Kris!

For interested readers:

From Chapter X:

[quote author=Meetings With Remarkable Men]

'To help you understand what I have just said, I will cite as an example the fact which aroused in us the desire to make investigations and led us to the discovery of this law.

'I must tell you that in our brotherhood there are two very old brethren; one is called Brother Ahl and the other Brother Sez. These brethren have voluntarily undertaken the obligation of periodically visiting all the monasteries of our order and explaining various aspects of the essence of divinity.

'Our brotherhood has four monasteries, one of them ours, the second in the valley of the Pamir, the third in Tibet, and the fourth in India. And so these brethren, Ahl and Sez, constantly travel from one monastery to another and preach there.

'They come to us once or twice a year. Their arrival at our monastery is considered among us a very great event. On the days when either of them is here, the soul of every one of us experiences pure heavenly pleasure and tenderness.

'The sermons of these two brethren, who are to an almost equal degree holy men and who speak the same truths, have nevertheless a different effect on all our brethren and on me in particular.

'When Brother Sez speaks, it is indeed like the song of the birds in Paradise; from what he says one is quite, so to say, turned inside out; one becomes as though entranced. His speech "purls" like a stream and one no longer wishes anything else in life but to listen to the voice of Brother Sez.

'But Brother Ahl's speech has almost the opposite effect. He speaks badly and indistinctly, evidently because of his age. No one knows how old he is. Brother Sez is also very old—it is said three hundred years old—but he is still a hale old man, whereas in Brother Ahl the weakness of old age is clearly evident.

'The stronger the impression made at the moment by the words of Brother Sez, the more this impression evaporates, until there ultimately remains in the hearer nothing at all.

'But in the case of Brother Ahl, although at first what he says makes almost no impression, later, the gist of it takes on a definite form, more and more each day, and is instilled as a whole into the heart and remains there for ever.

'When we became aware of this and began trying to discover why it was so, we came to the unanimous conclusion that the sermons of Brother Sez proceeded only from his mind, and therefore acted on our minds, whereas those of Brother Ahl proceeded from his being and acted on our being.

'Yes, Professor, knowledge and understanding are quite different. Only understanding can lead to being, whereas knowledge is but a passing presence in it. New knowledge displaces the old and the result is, as it were, a pouring from the empty into the void.

'One must strive to understand; this alone can lead to our Lord God.

'And in order to be able to understand the phenomena of nature, according and not according to law, proceeding around us, one must first of all consciously perceive and assimilate a mass of information concerning objective truth and the real events which took place on earth in the past; and secondly, one must bear in oneself all the results of all kinds of voluntary and involuntary experiencings.
[/quote]
 
Yeah, I read Nicole's Commentaries several years ago, and I must say the description of Brother Sez and Brother Ahl hit the nail on the head. While reading, it seemed that there were lots of new insights and connections about the Work, but after a little while nothing of practical value remained that would impact Being. OSIT.

Thanks for the excerpts from ISOTM and Meeting with Remarkable Men. I hadn't read them in quite some time, and they were a good reminder.
 
I must agree with that aswell, this is my 2nd time of reading through Commentaries.
In a way Nicoll reminds me of Epictetus. The way he taught uplifted and soon after
everything faded away. That quote from Remarkable Men is quite fitting.
 
Buddy said:
Yes, that's it! Thanks Kris!

For interested readers:

From Chapter X:

[quote author=Meetings With Remarkable Men]
'And in order to be able to understand the phenomena of nature, according and not according to law, proceeding around us, one must first of all consciously perceive and assimilate a mass of information concerning objective truth and the real events which took place on earth in the past; and secondly, one must bear in oneself all the results of all kinds of voluntary and involuntary experiencings.
[/quote]

Very interesting that the above point in bold would be made, since it is, in fact, precisely what we have been doing.
 
SeekinTruth said:
Yeah, I read Nicole's Commentaries several years ago, and I must say the description of Brother Sez and Brother Ahl hit the nail on the head. While reading, it seemed that there were lots of new insights and connections about the Work, but after a little while nothing of practical value remained that would impact Being. OSIT.

Thanks for the excerpts from ISOTM and Meeting with Remarkable Men. I hadn't read them in quite some time, and they were a good reminder.

Here's a video dramatization of Gurdjieff's account of the two brothers in the movie
Meetings With Remarkable Men (towards the end):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPo9B41xOas&feature=related
 
This is indeed an interesting quote because I have been a lifelong amateur student of history in its many facets. It is quite interesting to see how much of what I have studied on a variety of subject matters appears to function as the exact kind of preparatory coursework which i need now to understand and apply the Work.

I am still working my way, in addition to using many other sources, through Nicoll and i found that as an introductory course explaining some basics, it serves well enough.
But I have seen its limitations and I feel that a work like that will not be able to get me past a certain stage. Thankfully there are many other options.


Perceval said:
Buddy said:
Yes, that's it! Thanks Kris!

For interested readers:

From Chapter X:

[quote author=Meetings With Remarkable Men]
'And in order to be able to understand the phenomena of nature, according and not according to law, proceeding around us, one must first of all consciously perceive and assimilate a mass of information concerning objective truth and the real events which took place on earth in the past; and secondly, one must bear in oneself all the results of all kinds of voluntary and involuntary experiencings.

Very interesting that the above point in bold would be made, since it is, in fact, precisely what we have been doing.
[/quote]
 
Jacob Boehme tells that man, in space time, is among other things, but is not, an amalgamation of a devil, an animal and an angel. I think the essence Gurdjieff talks about is the devil, because it is the part of man made by God the Father and the forces which make and maintain the essence are astringency, sourness and fire and man must add the four others forces to get a state of equilibrium by his own will to transform these into love. Personality is no more than the learned common behavior mammals get by imitation, it is nothing. Personality must grow big in all possible ways, to get a realistic picture of the reality and then convince the essence to act in a precise way which is often contrary to it, cause essence began it's journey in an absolute egoistic state.
 

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