Question about orientation

[Gimpy]

We have a group of cross-dressers here locally that have formed a club. They have a social every month. They contract with a hotel for a ballroom and they are not hidden; they are right there for people to see. They help their members with dressing appropriately. I know some of the people that started it, and I encouraged them to welcome transsexuals as well. And they did, in spite of the local wisdom that that doesn't work. And of course it works. They have all sorts of other people dropping in from out of town. Everything imaginable on the gender identity continuum. I am not involved any longer myself, but I saw enough while I was there to realize just how complex and varied these people are. I think we could use more people like this.

Megan's quote above got me to thinking about the subject of compulsions, and fetish behavior. Sexual fetishes are 'hard wired', meaning they don't go away no matter what therapy is done. There is little if any research done on this subject that I can find, it is mostly focused on the sadistic/psychotic end of the spectrum.

My question would be: what causes fetishism in humans, is it a spectrum of behavior held over from past lives, or is it a direct interference from 4D, or a combination of programs designed to hinder soul growth that are chosen?

 

[Brewer]

G'day Gimpy!

I know one male to female transsexual well. The relationship she's in is, in short a feeding relationship, and she's a glutton! Though outwardly charming within her relationship she's vain, manipulative, narcissistic and selfish and I've found that often to be the case with such people.

I do not know if it's related to past lives, 4D STS, or programs but it seems there is something definitely running here.

The man she is with is food, however he knew the score and walked into it willingly, the best food there is I hear, a willing victim.

 

[anart]

G'day Gimpy!

I know one male to female transsexual well. The relationship she's in is, in short a feeding relationship, and she's a glutton! Though outwardly charming within her relationship she's vain, manipulative, narcissistic and selfish and I've found that often to be the case with such people.

I do not know if it's related to past lives, 4D STS, or programs but it seems there is something definitely running here.

The man she is with is food, however he knew the score and walked into it willingly, the best food there is I hear, a willing victim.

I know, personally, six or seven females who are gluttons in their feeding relationships. I know another 8 or so men who are as well - I think that is simply indicative of humanity, not transsexuals. fwiw.

 

[Gimpy]

G'day Gimpy!

I know one male to female transsexual well. The relationship she's in is, in short a feeding relationship, and she's a glutton! Though outwardly charming within her relationship she's vain, manipulative, narcissistic and selfish and I've found that often to be the case with such people.

I do not know if it's related to past lives, 4D STS, or programs but it seems there is something definitely running here.

The man she is with is food, however he knew the score and walked into it willingly, the best food there is I hear, a willing victim.

G'day Brewer. :)

Well, my question isn't about feeding behavior or the signs of narcissism. It has to do with sexual fetish behavior, because as far as I can tell, it does not occur in nature, just in humans. I'm not talking about someone who is transgendered, but someone who isn't interested in sex with another person as much as an object, like a pair of shoes. There are all kinds of these fetishes. Most are made fun of. This is an area that I don't understand, and I know people who do have problems with this. It causes real pain and it can destroy people's lives. I've tried researching it and found next to nothing out there.

I am aware that this is not a common question and that it can be controversial, and that its not a behavior that afflicts a great many people....but those I've met who have a fetish live in fear of being discovered and ridiculed, and worse. From what listening and questions I've managed to ask, this is something that affects people regardless of race, culture, trauma or no trauma, or gender....and to be frank...it just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Brewer]

G'day Gimpy!

I know one male to female transsexual well. The relationship she's in is, in short a feeding relationship, and she's a glutton! Though outwardly charming within her relationship she's vain, manipulative, narcissistic and selfish and I've found that often to be the case with such people.

I do not know if it's related to past lives, 4D STS, or programs but it seems there is something definitely running here.

The man she is with is food, however he knew the score and walked into it willingly, the best food there is I hear, a willing victim.

I know, personally, six or seven females who are gluttons in their feeding relationships. I know another 8 or so men who are as well - I think that is simply indicative of humanity, not transsexuals. fwiw.

That's alright, I know, experienced much the same and left my love bite/feeding relationship 18 months ago. I've known plenty of feeders and their more or less willing food of both genders, some seem to take turns feeding within their relationship. It is indicative of humanity and for this particular individual, the rituals involved, 'to be a woman' are intense and there is a small pyramid of people supporting it, 'making nice'. Regarding their personalities, whether they're born that way or they adopted their personas when they found out they were transsexuals and began associating with same I don't know. I've associated with many types of people and though transsexuals are rare, in general they shared much the same personas. Main thing is, I don't judge them, just like anything else, be aware, knowledge protects.

Thanks Anart

Brewer

 

[Masamune]

My question would be: what causes fetishism in humans, is it a spectrum of behavior held over from past lives, or is it a direct interference from 4D, or a combination of programs designed to hinder soul growth that are chosen?

I think these may all be possible but also I think that they may be caused by entity possesion. I have read stories of people who have strange paraphilias that vanish after having an entity removed. Also there is a discussion about the book The Sex Connection by Alan Fitzpatrick that may provide some clues:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=11341.0

I just finished reading The Sex Connection by Alan Fitzpatrick. It's a tome on Richard Rose's views about sex which seems to coincide with a lot that is said by Don Juan, Gurdjieff (whose teachings Rose read) and the C's.

Richard Rose calls the entities that feed on our neural energy at orgasm "sex bugs". These sex bugs are from another dimension that humans can't perceive and are strategically superior. He believed that the sex bug becomes attached to a person at the moment they have their first orgasm and it stays with them for life, luring them into sexual reverie in order to compel them into engaging in a sex act which will lead to orgasm. Hence, guaranteeing a food supply. He felt that sex was not something over which we have control. We are compelled. Rose also believes that the particular sex act that served as one's introduction into sex leaves a mental imprint of sorts that is called upon time and time again over the lifespan (with some variation and additions) to put us in the mood for sex. Most important to the mood is sexual reverie. Without it there can be no sex. Rose stated that the experience of drifting into sexual reverie is one's signal that the entity is present. Rose said that the sexual imprint can affect all aspects of one's life. In order to overcome any sexual compulsion, one must stop the reverie involved. This can only be done through intense introspection, uncovering all lies until there is nothing but the truth.

 

[Masamune]

Also I found this about possible causes and treatment for paraphilias: http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/paraphilias?tab=Causes

Causes

It is unclear what causes a paraphilia to develop. Psychoanalysts theorize that an individual with a paraphilia is repeating or reverting to a sexual habit that arose early in life. Behaviorists suggest that paraphilias begin through a process of conditioning. Nonsexual objects can become sexually arousing if they are repeatedly associated with pleasurable sexual activity. Or, particular sexual acts (such as peeping, exhibiting, bestiality) that provide especially intense erotic pleasure can lead the person to prefer that behavior. In some cases there seems to be a predisposing factor such as difficulty forming person-to-person relationships.

Behavioral learning models suggest that a child who is the victim or observer of inappropriate sexual behaviors learns to imitate and is later reinforced for the behavior. Compensation models suggest that these individuals are deprived of normal social sexual contacts and thus seek gratification through less socially acceptable means. Physiological models focus on the relationship between hormones, behavior and the central nervous system with a particular interest in the role of aggression and male sexual hormones.

Treatment

Treatment approaches have included traditional psychoanalysis, hypnosis, and behavior therapy techniques. More recently, a class of drugs called antiandrogens that drastically lower testosterone levels temporarily have been used in conjunction with these forms of treatment. The drug lowers the sex drive in males and reduces the frequency of mental imagery of sexually arousing scenes. This allows concentration on counseling without as strong a distraction from the paraphiliac urges. Increasingly, the evidence suggests that combining drug therapy with cognitive behavior therapy can be effective.

Regarding medication for paraphilias, level of sex drive is not consistently related to the behavior of paraphiliacs and also high levels of circulating testosterone do not predispose a male to paraphilias. That said, hormones such as medroxyprogesterone acetate (Depo-Provera) and cyproterone acetate decrease the level of circulating testosterone thus reducing sex drive and aggression. These hormones result in reduction of frequency of erections, sexual fantasies and initiations of sexual behaviors including masturbation and intercourse. Hormones are typically used in tandem with behavioral and cognitive treatments. Antidepressants such as fluoxetine (Prozac) have also successfully decreased the sex drive but have not effectively targeted sexual fantasies.

Research suggests that cognitive-behavioral models are effective in treating paraphiliacs. Aversive conditioning, for example, involves using negative stimuli to reduce or eliminate a behavior. Covert sensitization entails the patient relaxing, visualizing scenes of deviant behavior followed by a negative event such as getting his penis stuck in the zipper of his pants. Assisted aversive conditioning is similar to covert sensitization except the negative event is made real most likely in the form of a foul odor pumped in the air by the therapist. The goal is for the patient to associate the deviant behavior with the foul odor and take measures to avoid the odor by avoiding said behavior. Aversive behavioral reversal is commonly known as "shame therapy" as the goal is to shame the offender into stopping the deviant behavior. For example, the offender might be made to watch videotapes of their crime with the goal that the experience will be distasteful and offensive to the offender. Vicarious sensitization entails showing videotapes of deviant behaviors and their consequences such as victims describing desired revenge or perhaps even watching surgical castrations.

There are also positive conditioning approaches that might center on social skills training and alternate behaviors the patient might take that are more appropriate. Reconditioning techniques center on providing immediate feedback to the patient so that the behavior will be changed right away. For example, a person might be connected to a plethysmographic biofeedback machine that is hooked to a light. The person is taught to keep the light within a specific range of color while the person is exposed to sexually stimulating material. Or masturbation training might focus on separating pleasure in masturbation and climax with the deviant behavior.

Cognitive therapies described include restructuring cognitive distortions and empathy training. Restructuring cognitive distortions involves correcting erroneous beliefs by the patient, which may lead to errors in behavior such as seeing a victim and constructing erroneous logic that the victim deserves to be party to the deviant act. Empathy training involves helping the offender take on the perspective of the victim and in identification with the victim, understand the harm that has been done.

 

[Breton]

I don't have much time to discuss this topic, but it reminded me of a radio program that I once listened to where the psychologist introduced the topic of "love maps" and explained how they are formed early and can sometimes be very narrow and specific. Sometimes objects, instead of people get into one's "love map" (my memory is not too good). It is something that one can study that I think could lead to getting at the the kind of information and studies that relate to this topic.

I think this even more when I just checked what someone has put in wikipedia:

[quote author=wikipedia]
A lovemap is a concept originated by John Money to assist a discussion of why people like what they enjoy sexually and erotically. According to Money, it is "a developmental representation or template in the mind and in the brain depicting the idealized lover and the idealized program of sexual and erotic activity projected in imagery or actually engaged in with that lover.

SNIP

Money describes the formation of an individual's lovemap as similar to the acquirement of a native language, in that it bears the mark of his or her own unique individuality, similar to an accent in a spoken language. A lovemap is usually quite specific as to details of the physiognomy, build, race, and color of the ideal lover, not to mention temperament, manner, etc.[citation needed] Since its inception, the concept of “love maps”, applied to interpersonal relationships, has found apt acceptance[citation needed] and is frequently referenced in love / relationship / sexual-evolution theory books;[citation needed] as for example in Wilson and McLaughlin’s 2001 The Science of Love.[2]

In "Gay, Straight, and In-Between: The Sexology of Erotic Orientation," Money (1988: 127-128) suggests that love is like a Rorschach (ink blot) test, where if projections (shaped by a body/mind's lovemap) on the other are mutual, pair-bonding occurs, typically in a courtship phase of mating.

* Heterosexual lovemaps – love mappings associative to persons of the opposite gender.

* Homosexual lovemaps – love mappings associative to persons of the same gender.

* Vandalized lovemaps – is when the love mapping process or neurological template development stage becomes traumatized, as when a young child is either exposed to, or forced to participate in such inappropriate behaviors as pedophilia, incest, or sexual sado-masochism. Such a lovemap is typically formed between the ages of two to eight. A vandalized lovemap is often an atypical lovemap.

* Paraphilic lovemaps – when lust is attached to fantasies and practices that are socially forbidden, disapproved, ridiculed, or penalized; sometimes as the result of residual imprinted memories from certain traumatic or unusual episodes from early childhood, or sometimes the result of various physiological anomalies such as the presence of a micropenis, a chromosomal abnormality (45, X/46, XY), or of accelerated growth (premature puberty).

* Native lovemap - by analogy with native language, is a lovemap that is assimilated as one's own personal, inalienable possession, regardless of how many of its attributes are shared, or not shared by others.

* Klismaphilic lovemap – specifies both in fantasy and performance that the person’s sexual and erotic will be aroused, and orgasm achieved, only if the partner participates in a scenario of administering an enema.

* Acrotomophilic lovemap – specifies a paraphilia of the stigmatic/eligibilic type in which sexual and erotic arousal and facilitation of attainment of orgasm are responsive to, and dependent upon a partner who is an amputee, or in extreme cases a thalidomide baby who has reached adulthood.

* Zoophilic lovemap – specifies a paraphilia of the stigmatic/eligibilic type in which sexual and erotic arousal and facilitation of attainment of orgasm are responsive to, and dependent upon engaging in cross-species sexual activities, that is, with an animal.

[/quote]

Hopefully this might be a useful hint!

 

[Gimpy]

Also I found this about possible causes and treatment for paraphilias: http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/paraphilias?tab=Causes

Causes

It is unclear what causes a paraphilia to develop. Psychoanalysts theorize that an individual with a paraphilia is repeating or reverting to a sexual habit that arose early in life. Behaviorists suggest that paraphilias begin through a process of conditioning. Nonsexual objects can become sexually arousing if they are repeatedly associated with pleasurable sexual activity. Or, particular sexual acts (such as peeping, exhibiting, bestiality) that provide especially intense erotic pleasure can lead the person to prefer that behavior. In some cases there seems to be a predisposing factor such as difficulty forming person-to-person relationships.

Behavioral learning models suggest that a child who is the victim or observer of inappropriate sexual behaviors learns to imitate and is later reinforced for the behavior. Compensation models suggest that these individuals are deprived of normal social sexual contacts and thus seek gratification through less socially acceptable means. Physiological models focus on the relationship between hormones, behavior and the central nervous system with a particular interest in the role of aggression and male sexual hormones.

Thank you Masamune, Brewer and Breton for looking for ideas. I've read different conglomerations of the same information across the net. If I had money and a better medical dictionary, it would be possible to pay for some of the papers that may be out there on this abroad. Most of the journals require subscriptions and credentials I don't have, which is one of the reasons I'm asking here.

The few people that have felt safe/comfortable enough to talk to me have all said the same thing: the fetish was always there. A few have said it's like being gay, its just how sex works for them.

The more I've read on psychologists etc trying to 'fix it' or 'cure' it, the more I'm convinced nobody else groks it either. The whole 'shame therapy' is too much like torture. It would be the same as giving people electric shocks to 'cure them' of being heterosexuals. osit.

 

[Buddy]

I have a brother who is gay and about 15 or 20 years ago, due to some quirk of happenstance, I met one of his friends. He seemed like a really nice guy. Long story short, I wound up meeting a couple more of his friends and we went to a gay bar one Saturday night just because I mentioned that I was curious about that particular place.

Once inside the place, and before I knew it, I was introduced to many other gay people, male and female, transexuals, and whatever. Most of them gave me a hug and seemed to express genuine warmth and welcome.

Anyway, someone I was introduced to asked me directly "So, what do you think? Are gay people born that way or are they turned gay somehow?" Without missing a beat, I said "Well, I guess you'd have to ask each one."

I think he was pleased with my answer. Anyway, I stayed, had a few drinks, a few dances, watched a VERY impressive Transexual stage show, and went home having had a really good time, just clubbing with them. That's where I learned the "Electric Slide."

Thinking back on the experience, I was impressed that, even though everyone knew I wasn't inclined in that direction, they were all "looking after me to keep me safe, and wanted to make sure I was enjoying myself." I was impressed by the sense of community and belonging and I also suspect that in such a welcoming scenario, anything that could be in a person's psychology would have ground to develop if it is something that is accepted within the community.

So, I guess my thoughts on your question are the same as they always were: you'd probably have to ask each individual.

Hope that's not too far off topic, if it is. I just don't know about 'fetishes' in general, or any particular one, but I wanted to share that.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Well, my question isn't about feeding behavior or the signs of narcissism. It has to do with sexual fetish behavior, because as far as I can tell, it does not occur in nature, just in humans.

Well dogs have been known to use "objects" like people's legs and soft squishy toys to hump. I'm not sure if that qualifies as a fetish, as I'm not sure of the exact definition, but it sounds like it may be. I know that animals are also known to masturbate. Also, they can try to have sex with other animals, not of their own species at all, which is somewhat like "beastiality" may be for humans. I'm not sure where the line is between normal sexuality and sexual "perversion", and whether a fetish counts as such, and what would cause that. I'd imagine that as with all our likes and dislikes it is shaped by our psychological health in general, which is a result of our experiences, environment, upbringing, etc. Like being attracted to much older or much younger males may be related to our relationship with our father/mother, etc. It's probably similar to what shapes our hobbies and what kind of people we choose to "attract" to ourselves but also be attracted to, when both can be very damaging and yet almost inexplicably we keep coming back to the damaging dynamic over and over again because of some psychological issue that "feeds" some part of us while hurts another.

I can imagine that being homosexual and heterosexual can both be natural and healthy, and both be unnatural and unhealthy if it is a result of psychological issues. Things like crossdressing could have varied causes - maybe someone is gay but "in the closet" so to speak, or someone is just feeling more feminine all their life and have repressed it and at some point "snapped" and is rebelling against this repression by crossdressing because they feel this is associated with feminism so that's what they must do, or maybe someone is just born into that culture and is literally brainwashed into the "lifestyle" if you can call it that, but again, then it's just psychological.

Having said that, what is the reason that men and women even wear the clothes they wear? Is there anything natural about the chosen wardrobes or is it purely cultural? Maybe it's just "accenting" what is considered "male" and "female" and thus is attractive to the opposite sex, but then the question is, why is that version of masculinity or femininity attractive - is THAT natural or cultural? For example the obsession with skinny women in modern society hasn't always been this way - art and sculptures of past ages are evidence of that. So considering how much of what attracts us is manufactured, it seems rather difficult to remove those layers and get to what is natural underneath it all, which might turn out to be vastly different from what we consider feminine and masculine now, and what is truly attractive to our real "I". In other words, we're always brought back to the realization that we are a huge "toxic" mess on many levels, and nothing in our lives escapes the mechanical and twisted nature of our personalities.

 

[Cyre2067]

My question would be: what causes fetishism in humans, is it a spectrum of behavior held over from past lives, or is it a direct interference from 4D, or a combination of programs designed to hinder soul growth that are chosen?

I'm not sure if cross-dressing is a 'fetish', per se. I'm sure there are a variety of causes for different fetishes, there is also the question of where do you draw the line. Is cross dressing socially a fetish when no sexual activity is involved? For background, here's the definition from m-w.com

1 a : an object (as a small stone carving of an animal) believed to have magical power to protect or aid its owner; broadly : a material object regarded with superstitious or extravagant trust or reverence b : an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion : prepossession c : an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression
2 : a rite or cult of fetish worshipers
3 : fixation

So purely social cross dressing wouldn't necessarily be a fetish any more then a preference for wearing skinny jeans or camo pants out on the town would be.