Questions on the Ethics of Stealing and Survival.

[de-tached]

Dec 22, 2009
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091223/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_shoplifting_ok

British priest: Shoplifting by poor sometimes OK

LONDON – For a priest in northern England, the commandment that dictates "thou shalt not steal" isn't exactly written in stone.
The Rev. Tim Jones caused an uproar by telling his congregation that it is sometimes acceptable for desperate people to shoplift — as long as they do it at large national chain stores, rather than small, family businesses.


Among the suggested readings which I have completed and on the forum, I have not yet come across anything regarding the topic of stealing/ theft/ reappropriation/ taking for the sake of maintaining fundamental nutritional requirements, medical requirements, or other necessities essential to survival.

What are peoples’ thoughts regarding this subject?
Is “stealing” wrong? Where does one draw the line of distinction of acceptable reasons if it is not always wrong?
Do codes of conduct apply to countries, as well as individuals?

 

[Beau]

Their is Heinz's Dilemma that has been discussed on the forum in a few places and was a matter of intense discussion on QFS a while back...

Heinz's Dilemma

Heinz's wife is dying from a rare form of cancer. According to the doctors, there is one drug that could save her, a radium compound that a druggist in Heinz's town has recently discovered. The ingredients for the drug are expensive to begin with, and the druggist is charging ten times what it costs him to make the medicine. The druggist pays two hundred dollars for the radium and charges his customers two thousand dollars for a small dose. Heinz goes to everyone he can think of and asks to borrow money. Still, he ends up with only about one thousand dollars. Heinz explains to the druggist that his wife will die without the drug, and asks him to sell the medicine at a cheaper price or to take payment later. But the druggist replies, "No, I discovered the drug, and I'm going to make money from it." Heinz becomes desperate. He breaks into the druggist's store and steals the drug for his wife.

Should Heinz have done that?

As far as -

What are peoples’ thoughts regarding this subject?
Is “stealing” wrong? Where does one draw the line of distinction of acceptable reasons if it is not always wrong?
Do codes of conduct apply to countries, as well as individuals?

I think that you have to take each situation as it is. Context is key in these situations, you can't give a clear cut answer to these questions without knowing the specifics. OSIT.

 

[Vulcan59]

Hi de-tached,

As Heimdallr mentioned above, check out this topic for the discussion on Heinz Dilemma. :)

 

[Nienna]

I think that it totally depends on the context of the situation. And, unfortunately, I think that we will be seeing more and more stealing as more and more people lose their jobs and homes and have no way to buy the things that they need to survive.

I think, along with the Heinz's Dilemma quoted above, that we should ask ourselves just what we would do to make sure that our loved ones are able to eat, have water, be warm in winter, have a place to sleep out of the wind and rain, for those who need meds to live, how to get them..... I'm not saying that stealing is the thing to do, but that in some circumstances, there is no other option available at the time.

It's a sad state of affairs when people are driven to do things that they normally wouldn't do if things were different. But our governments are hell-bent on causing as much suffering of the populace as possible.

And, then, you have people who steal just for the thrill of it. So, as has been said, context is everything.

fwiw

 

[StrangeCaptain]

I have to second everythiing everyone has shared especially the suggestion to look at the discussion of Heinz's Dilemma.

I also think of Gurdjieff's painted bird story in Meetings With Remarable Men. During his travels and at a particularly desperate stage in which he had no money but had a clue where he needed to go next to continue his search for esoteric knowledge, G tells the story of painting and clipping common birds and selling them as American canaries in the market in the town he was in. If I remember correctly, the gist of the story is that people with extra money to spend and enough vanity to want a genuine American canary were the ones likely to get fleeced. It was very challenging to me to read this story.

We come back to the idea that each situation contains a right and a wrong, but the context of each situation is of supreme importance to understanding this right and wrong. Part of this context is one's aim, but this is not the same as "the end justifies the means." I think what we call the third force here is the faculty to judge right and wrong in a given situation based on the context, which is another reason knowledge is important. How am I to understand the context of a situation if my knowledge about it is not sufficiently complete?

I think of a particular point here. In the Gurdjieff story, he mentions needing to leave town in a hurry before people started finding out that his canaries were regular birds, and he was planning to move on anyway. I think most of us tend to live in one community, a non-nomadic life. If I do something against commonly held ethics, then I must consider the possible consequences on my Strategic Enclosure.

 

[de-tached]

Hello all!

I would greatly appreciate some mirroring of my own circumstance regarding this issue, because I shoplift groceries. As it's a touchy issue with many people, I've been contemplating on whether or not my justifications for why I shoplift are just buffers which are made by my intellectual center. I'd like to clarify this issue in case it is inhibiting my esoteric development, so I'll be as candid as possible in hopes of getting some clear insight.

(Note: I'm presently in the midst of the second book of Gnosis, so I'm not COMPLETELY familiar with its entirety but have read much of the required reading on the forum, as described in the "introduce yourself" section.)

My situation: I'm a working freelance artist who ALSO collects unemployment money on the side from my last job at a huge international entertainment conglomeration (one of the biggest in the world).

Reasoning: The dollar doesn't really exist anyway, and the economy is all a privately manipulated, debt-based, infectious, war-fueling illusion (I realize I may be preaching to the choir). If the government corporatocracy is handing out free checks due to their psychopathic and destructive mismanagement, I feel everyone is well entitled to some form of corporate/ governmental (same thing) aid from this catastrophe in any way possible.

The company who also contributes to the unemployment checks make HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS in profits per year. Since working there, I began meeting others who also enjoyed exploring fringe topics and introduced me to esoteric teachings. I've been using the benefits of getting free money so I don't have to worry about working, putting the education pedal to the metal, so to speak.

Also, I live as a nomad in my customized art van, so I don't have to pay rent or utilities.

I don't pay taxes, don't pay back my student loans, and am quite content with living "under the radar" and "on the fringe", since I would feel wretchedly about contributing any more to "the system" than I must to survive and pursue my esoteric intentions.

Again, I've used this situation as a Strategic Enclosure to rigorously study esotericism and allow my expenditures to go toward other educational things; for example: books, massage technician certification, and a Qi Gong workshop at Esalen. I learned from the EE breathing and Qi Gong practices that getting "in the body" gets me out of my head and more in touch with my emotional center, which helps greatly in my esoteric pursuits.

NOW, here's the issue that my friends have amidst the whole "situation": I shoplift food.

Reasoning: I also share a good portion of my food with friends and often make dinners for them.
I eat primarily vegan, since meat and dairy spoil relatively quickly, so it's all healthy foods.
I don't shoplift anything that isn't essential to my immediate survival.
I feel things that grown naturally should be free.
I've attempted to work through local government to advocate the establishment of rooftop gardens, which would make MANY jobs, create inexpensive food for the city, add beauty and equity to buildings (by keeping buildings cool in the summer and warm in the winter), etc... But, again, I maintain that the corporately owned multinational oligarchies that are grossly perpetuating the entropic stagnancy of the world are merely suffering insignificant losses, with no .
I buy directly from farmer's markets when I'm able to.
The only take modestly from nationalized corporate franchises occasionally and live an otherwise ascetic lifestyle, and when I do spend money for retail commodities (retail, cafe, clothes), I primarily spend at privately owned businesses which give back to the community in some way.

Compared to the discussion of Heinz's Dilemma, my situation is by no means "life and death", but there it is. I understand the risks and the mainstream ethical policies which exist and could come in to conflict later on, but I feel the benefits presented and reasonings outweigh the risks involved.

Am I overlooking something? Thoughts, please?
Thank you for your considerations. <3

 

[Windmill knight]

My situation: I'm a working freelance artist who ALSO collects unemployment money on the side from my last job at a huge international entertainment conglomeration (one of the biggest in the world).

Reasoning: The dollar doesn't really exist anyway, and the economy is all a privately manipulated, debt-based, infectious, war-fueling illusion (I realize I may be preaching to the choir). If the government corporatocracy is handing out free checks due to their psychopathic and destructive mismanagement, I feel everyone is well entitled to some form of corporate/ governmental (same thing) aid from this catastrophe in any way possible.

You know, your 'reasoning' sounds a lot to what those guys at the top of the corporations must be thinking about their own ways. "The whole system is all manipulated anyway, and it would be the same with or without me. Everyone needs to take care of their own needs, so what's the big deal if I take a little here and there." Except that you are at the 'bottom', and they are at the 'top', but otherwise I don't see much of a difference.

In short, you are just rationalizing in order to be able to take as much as you can from life without giving anything.

The company who also contributes to the unemployment checks make HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS in profits per year. Since working there, I began meeting others who also enjoyed exploring fringe topics and introduced me to esoteric teachings. I've been using the benefits of getting free money so I don't have to worry about working, putting the education pedal to the metal, so to speak.

Also, I live as a nomad in my customized art van, so I don't have to pay rent or utilities.

I don't pay taxes, don't pay back my student loans, and am quite content with living "under the radar" and "on the fringe", since I would feel wretchedly about contributing any more to "the system" than I must to survive and pursue my esoteric intentions.

How convenient that you are 'interested in esoterism'. That way you can always rationalize and lie to yourself about how perfectly fine it is that you can take and take and never give anything back to life. Sorry, but your ethics are not that afar from those of the pathocrats.

Again, I've used this situation as a Strategic Enclosure to rigorously study esotericism and allow my expenditures to go toward other educational things; for example: books, massage technician certification, and a Qi Gong workshop at Esalen. I learned from the EE breathing and Qi Gong practices that getting "in the body" gets me out of my head and more in touch with my emotional center, which helps greatly in my esoteric pursuits.

Rationalizing so that you can have your cake and eat it too. It's all about your 'cool' and 'spiritual' lifestyle - if you have to steal to have it, that's ok with you.

NOW, here's the issue that my friends have amidst the whole "situation": I shoplift food.

Reasoning: I also share a good portion of my food with friends and often make dinners for them.
I eat primarily vegan, since meat and dairy spoil relatively quickly, so it's all healthy foods.
I don't shoplift anything that isn't essential to my immediate survival.
I feel things that grown naturally should be free.
I've attempted to work through local government to advocate the establishment of rooftop gardens, which would make MANY jobs, create inexpensive food for the city, add beauty and equity to buildings (by keeping buildings cool in the summer and warm in the winter), etc... But, again, I maintain that the corporately owned multinational oligarchies that are grossly perpetuating the entropic stagnancy of the world are merely suffering insignificant losses, with no .
I buy directly from farmer's markets when I'm able to.
The only take modestly from nationalized corporate franchises occasionally and live an otherwise ascetic lifestyle, and when I do spend money for retail commodities (retail, cafe, clothes), I primarily spend at privately owned businesses which give back to the community in some way.

Rationalizing. You do realize that when you say that you are doing this 'for your immediate survival' it is because you have placed yourself in such situation in the first place, don't you??

Compared to the discussion of Heinz's Dilemma, my situation is by no means "life and death", but there it is. I understand the risks and the mainstream ethical policies which exist and could come in to conflict later on, but I feel the benefits presented and reasonings outweigh the risks involved.

Benefits. Risks. For YOU. Can you see how selfish your lifestyle is?? Heinz was stealing for his wife. You are stealing for your own comfort. Do you call that 'esoteric'?!?

 

[Johnno]

Gurdjieff would describe you as a tramp.

“Tramps are not necessarily poor people, vagabonds, or street-dwellers. On the contrary, they can occupy very high positions in everyday life…The tramp does not understand that one must work in order to eat. The tramp does not like to pay its way. The tramp does not like to be responsible; it wants things to be free and easy and casual; it does not like rules, not realizing that without rules there is no school, no society, no culture, and no civilization. The tramp is characterized by not really being interested in anything. It has no values. It has no discipline… The tramp considers itself to be on a higher level than, and despises the Good Householder and their values, which insist that one must work for what one gets… The tramp believes it is owed a living for merely existing. The tramp wants and expects something for nothing, without making effort. Tramp is a parasite. [It] takes other people's resources, time, and money as though it belongs to them.”

 

[Mark]

Am I overlooking something? Thoughts, please?

I think a key milestone in anyone's personal development in this Work is reaching a point where you understand the value of what you acquire and how your gain creates a situation where you absolutely must give back in a commensurate, if not greater amount, whenever possible. You obviously haven't reached that point yet.

Meanwhile, it's up to you to decide when you'll stop being a leech on society.

 

[vinny]

Mme Jeanne de Salzmann says it better than I ever could. The whole thing is available at the link below:

The 'First Initiation' written by Mme Jeanne de Salzmann:

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! ...

You live exclusively according to "I like" or "I don't like," you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you-theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your "appreciation of yourself" blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further.

 

[Joe]

I feel things that grown naturally should be free.

Assuming that your current lifestyle really does allow you to have as much time as possible to follow your esoteric path, and that you are on the right esoteric path, then I don't see anything wrong with it, including the claiming of unemployment benefit while working "free lance". I do however take issue with the above. Things grown naturally ARE free, IF you grow them yourself. Stealing vegetables that someone else has grown is taking it too far, IMO.

I could of course be wrong about this, since I don't know enough about you or your life situation, specifically in terms of what you give back to life

 

[Hildegarda]

Reasoning: I also share a good portion of my food with friends and often make dinners for them.
I eat primarily vegan, since meat and dairy spoil relatively quickly, so it's all healthy foods.
I don't shoplift anything that isn't essential to my immediate survival.
I feel things that grown naturally should be free. [..]
I've attempted to work through local government to advocate the establishment of rooftop gardens, which would make MANY jobs, create inexpensive food for the city, add beauty and equity to buildings (by keeping buildings cool in the summer and warm in the winter), etc... [..]
I buy directly from farmer's markets when I'm able to.
The only take modestly from nationalized corporate franchises occasionally and live an otherwise ascetic lifestyle, and when I do spend money for retail commodities (retail, cafe, clothes), I primarily spend at privately owned businesses which give back to the community in some way.
[..]

Am I overlooking something? Thoughts, please?

Your stated needs are modest enough that dumpster diving would meet them just fine. Now, that's taking from nobody and obtaining for free the things that are free. Same with growing your own rooftop garden or any garden. Have you tried any of that?

Otherwise, it's still stealing, and stealing from people, not from the devilish corporations, AND to support a lifestyle that is self-oriented and, for all its stated ascetism, seemingly pick-and-choose and comfortable.

In pursuing your esoteric interests, you appear to have skipped entirely the whole obyvatel stage, and one can't help wonder what the final value of this choice would be, from the esoteric point of view:

"Obyvatel is a strange word in the Russian language. It is used in the sense of 'inhabitant,' without any particular shade. At the same time it is used to express contempt or derision--'obyvatel'--as though there could be nothing worse. But those who speak in this way do not understand that the obyvatel is the healthy kernel of life. And from the point of view of the possibility of evolution, a good obyvatel has many more chances than a 'lunatic' or a 'tramp.' Afterwards I will perhaps explain what I mean by these two words. In the meantime we will talk about the obyvatel. I do not at all wish to say that all obyvatels are people of the objective way. Nothing of the kind. Among them are thieves, rascals, and fools; but there are others. I merely wish to say that being a good obyvatel by itself does not hinder the 'way.' And finally there are different types of obyvatel. Imagine, for example, the type of obyvatel who lives all his life just as the other people round him, conspicuous in nothing, perhaps a good master, who makes money, and is perhaps even close-fisted. At the same time he dreams all his life of monasteries, for instance, and dreams that some time or other he will leave everything and go into a monastery. And such things happen in the East and in Russia. A man lives and works, then, when his children or his grandchildren are grown up, he gives everything to them and goes into a monastery. This is the obyvatel of which I speak. Perhaps he does not go into a monastery, perhaps he does not need this. His own life as an obyvatel can be his way.

"People who are definitely thinking about ways, particularly people of intellectual ways, very often look down on the obyvatel and in general despise the virtues of the obyvatel. But they only show by this their own personal unsuitability for any way whatever. Because no way can begin from a level lower than the obyvatel. This is very often lost sight of on people who are unable to organize their own personal lives, who are too weak to struggle with and conquer life, dream of the ways, or what they consider are ways, because they think it will be easier for them than life and because this, so to speak, justifies their weakness and inadaptability. A man who can be a good obyvatel is much more helpful from the point of view of the way than a 'tramp' who thinks himself much higher than an obyvatel. I call 'tramps' all the so-called 'intelligentsia'--artists, poets, any kind of 'bohemian' in general, who despises the obyvatel and who at the same time would be unable to exist without him. Ability to orientate oneself in life is a very useful quality from the point of view of the work. A good obyvatel should be able to support at least twenty persons by his own labor. What is a man worth who is unable to do this?"

 

[RyanX]

I feel things that grown naturally should be free.

...

Stealing vegetables that someone else has grown is taking it too far, IMO.

I agree and I can say categorically that the natural or organic food is not "free" by any stretch of the imagination. If you have ever worked on a farm and seen the time, thought and back-breaking labor that goes into making good natural food you would pay those farmers as much as you could for their efforts! That is assuming one has a conscience to begin with. People gripe and complain about high food prices, well good food isn't cheap! In the US, some food is cheap because the government subsidizes it and these are usually the corn or corn-based goods. Sadly, this is what people have come to expect.

On another note, have you considered the criminal implications of your lifestyle? What happens if you get caught? Do you really think you are smart enough to pull this off for the rest of your life? I've known people in my younger years who would shoplift and I noticed it begins to become an addition of sorts and addition to thrill or whatever.

I'm not sure about where you live, but around here there are options for working for food. They might not all come as easy as shoplifting, but with a little networking they are possible. One could volunteer at a CSA or other natural/organic farm and get a lot of free food. I've met people who live from year to year not working any jobs, but working on the farms and getting paid with food which lasts them the rest of the year. I've met and known people who dumpster dive for a lot of foods. Legally, this is pushing the limits too and the food they get is typically not the greatest - but for basic survival it's another option.

I could understand your situation if it was a matter of life or death, but that doesn't seem to be the case in this instance.

 

[flashgordonv]

Hello all!

I would greatly appreciate some mirroring of my own circumstance regarding this issue, because I shoplift groceries.


My situation: I'm a working freelance artist who ALSO collects unemployment money on the side

I've been using the benefits of getting free money so I don't have to worry about working, putting the education pedal to the metal, so to speak.

Also, I live as a nomad in my customized art van, so I don't have to pay rent or utilities.

I don't pay taxes, don't pay back my student loans, and am quite content with living "under the radar" and "on the fringe", since I would feel wretchedly about contributing any more to "the system" than I must to survive and pursue my esoteric intentions.

What an interesting post.

The first thing that strikes me is that you refer to your practice as shoplifting - come on, it is stealing, so why not call it what it is. After all what is being discussed here is the ethics of stealing.

The second thing is that although you profess to despise the system, you are using it to the maximum. You used it to get a free education. You use it to get free money so you don't have to work. And you justify your actions as being designed to not contribute to the system any more than you need to in order to survive.

So you are educated, you are paid, you have a place to live which you are comfortable with, you have lots of time on your hands to study and pursue esoteric matters. Seems to me the system is working very nicely for you.

On top of all that, you steal from people who work long and hard to produce natural organic food. I understand one of the principles of most esoteric works is that the workman is worthy of his hire - he is worth being paid for the work he does - whether that is imparting spiritual wisdom, or growing vegetables. So why steal from him?

You also don't mention whether you can actually afford to pay for the food you steal? Is it really essential for your survival as you say, will you starve without that food or is this simply a way of supplementing your income? Or is this how you get your kicks?

In summary, not enough data yet to decide, but it does sound to me like you are living a very indulgent self centered life and this is just a part of that.

 

[The rabbit]

Heinz Dilemma does not count in your situation.

When i left one institution in Britain , i was penalised for having had a student loan which I had obviously spent. I ended up being entitled from the state FIVE English pounds a fortnight to live on because of that loan. The state also payed my rent.

Out of that five pounds One pound went into an electric meter , the rest on vegetables and packets of noodles that i lived on untill the next fortnight , it was hard but i managed. My life was in no danger. I found voluntary work in an Oxfam book shop which though not payed provided a free dinner on each day that i worked there..

In short in my opinion what you are doing , there is no justification for.