Questions on the Ethics of Stealing and Survival.

[John G]

So you are educated, you are paid, you have a place to live which you are comfortable with, you have lots of time on your hands to study and pursue esoteric matters. Seems to me the system is working very nicely for you... Is it really essential for your survival as you say, will you starve without that food or is this simply a way of supplementing your income?

I think de-tached's idea is that free lance/private/local is better than his previous job at a conglomerate. If he made enough money at that not to be worried enough to have to supplement it, maybe he wouldn't be shoplifting. He also shares food with friends (don't know what their situation is). One would hope if free lance income goes down too much there's a better way to get food than stealing. It does seem like things aren't bad enough to justify stealing yet, but it does sound like things aren't working out nicely enough to always buy at farmers markets. I have to admit that in a couple years I could see my income situation getting to the point where I could see me skipping some $250 student loan monthly payments cause of large extra expenses (health care, repairs, etc.).

 

[flashgordonv]

If he made enough money at that not to be worried enough to have to supplement it, maybe he wouldn't be shoplifting.

He doesn't sound worried in his post, indeed there is a fairly weak attempt to justify his actions. Hence my comment that there is not enough data yet to decide.

Then we come to the question of whether he (I am making gender assumptions here) is spending all his time studying when he could time-manage his time and spend some more time earning a living, so he wouldn't need to steal his food - assuming he needs to steal it to survive. More data please.

 

[Bernhard]

My situation: I'm a working freelance artist who ALSO collects unemployment money on the side from my last job at a huge international entertainment conglomeration (one of the biggest in the world).
[...]
Again, I've used this situation as a Strategic Enclosure to rigorously study esotericism and allow my expenditures to go toward other educational things; for example: books, massage technician certification, and a Qi Gong workshop at Esalen. I learned from the EE breathing and Qi Gong practices that getting "in the body" gets me out of my head and more in touch with my emotional center, which helps greatly in my esoteric pursuits.

Others made some good points already. Here are my 2 cents on this based on the data given (and I could be off):
You say you live out of your van and you have no other expenses but enough money to pay for a massage certification, a workshop at Esalen, books, etc... So you are certainly not "broke" by any means, but seem to have saved up some money. Seems to me that you're stealing food (which it essentially is) simply in order to save some money, but not because you really would have to or can't afford the food (as you said it's not a life&death situation), and justify it because the "big corporations" take from others anyway and also because you "give" to others some of the goods you steal. Kinda like in a "Robin Hood" fashion that makes you feel good about yourself? (and issue of self-importance maybe?) You are also justifying it by some distorted idea of what esoteric work implies it seems. Not exactly sure what 'Strategic Enclosure' has to do with your life situation. Looks more like you are setting yourself up for the "General Law" in some way.

You then state that "I feel things that grown naturally should be free." Well, as mentioned by others, then grow your own food and/or dumpster dive. There is no need to steal groceries/food from people that work hard at producing it.
Much of what you wrote sounds like rationalizing without seeing yourself clearly

Rationalizing. You do realize that when you say that you are doing this 'for your immediate survival' it is because you have placed yourself in such situation in the first place, don't you??

Basing on the data given, it sounds your life style is that of a "tramp" or "leech" and essentially a very indulgent self centered life, as some one else noted. Fwiw...

As sugegsted by Nomad, you may want to read The 'First Initiation' written by Mme Jeanne de Salzmann:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=16426.msg141216#msg141216

 

[Bar Kochba]

it seems to me that many people use capitalism to legally steal from others. For example, i needed a car and was in a desparate situation...so i settled for a 2 year loan at 24 percent interest. I realized it was usury but i had no choice. I agree that the situation determines the action, but, i also firmly believe you get what you give. Stealing food to feed your family? Ok, if you must. Robbing houses to pay your rent? I dont think so. I will do what i must to care for my family. But that does not mean i would steal your family*s food to feed mine.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

I'd like to clarify this issue in case it is inhibiting my esoteric development, so I'll be as candid as possible in hopes of getting some clear insight.

Going to jail might inhibit your "esoteric development." Then again, you might have a lot of time to read in jail if you think reading is all it takes. It sounds like you want to skip the stage where you learn how to support yourself in the best way possible considering the circumstances of the society you find yourself in. If you can not reasonably support yourself, then how can you expect to ever have something to give back? I don't have a problem with anyone receiving government benefits. Why shouldn't a pittance of government spending go to help people instead of going to build more bombs? Stealing hurts regular people and puts yourself at risk and it just does not sound like you have exhausted enough avenues for stealing to be a resonable alternative to the suggestions you have been given.

 

[truth seeker]

I have to admit that in a couple years I could see my income situation getting to the point where I could see me skipping some $250 student loan monthly payments cause of large extra expenses (health care, repairs, etc.).

I think there's a world of difference in not paying bills because one can't afford to versus stealing food to support a lifestyle where someone has no monthly bills to pay.

De-tached, did you write this post in the hopes that the members of this forum would help you provide justification to your friends since your current reasoning isn't causing them to see the situation your way? Perhaps it is making for an uncomfortable situation with you and your friends?

Your reasoning concerning stealing from the rich falls apart. I don't think you truly understand how stealing affects people. Look around at various examples of what happens when the heads of these corporations have their financial situations threatened. The ones who end up paying the price are the people at the bottom. The poor. They pay with pay cuts, loss of working hours and in many cases their jobs. It is also as has been stated paid for by the customer (via higher prices) who is many times in the same (if not worse) situation as you.

I used to know someone who was exploiting the system (some of it was justified by use of welfare programs). One of the problems was that he never knew when to stop. He basically became someone who exploited everyone and everything he could just because. It became a part of how he moved through his life. Somewhere he thought he deserved it.

The other problem is that he was spiritually lacking. This was not because he wasn't well read. It was because he wasn't practicing values of external consideration in his life. If reading was all it took to become enlightened, we would have all reached that point many years ago. The work of practicing what we say we believe in our lives is what is necessary.

A few years ago, I didn't have enough money to buy food. I finally ended up going to a food pantry a couple of times. While I'll be the first to say that these places don't have the best food, when one is truly hungry any food tastes good. It got me through a few weeks until I was able to buy food. This may be one option for you if you don't like the idea of dumpster diving (also known as freegans). Just so you know, people do this (dumpster diving) in groups sometimes as it makes them feel more comfortable.

I may be off in this so please correct me if I am, but there's something about your food choices that makes me feel as if you're not as bad off as your post sounds. You say you have no rent or utilities to pay. Do you have any debts that you use the money you receive to pay? If not then it makes little sense to me that you would need to steal. If you don't need to steal because of lack of funds, then the only reason I can come up with for your stealing would be for the thrill of it. Is this the case?

This would point to a deeper issue.

 

[Nienna]

de-tached, from what I read of your post, your "reasonings" are not reasonings, but rationalizations.

From what you have written, you have no bills, but are receiving money on unemployment, thus, you have money to buy food with. You can rationalize all you want, but what you are doing has nothing to do with feeding someone who is desperate, is starving, has no way to pay for food and desperately needs it to survive. It seems more like a game to you. Which, to me, says a lot.

There is right, there is wrong and there is the specific situation that determines which is which. From what you have written, it all points to "wrong" in my way of thinking.

 

[de-tached]

Thank you all for your prompt and thorough replies.
In retrospect, I agree with many of you that there isn't enough information presented to fully decide. Hopefully I can answer your questions to offer further insight into the details, my motivations, and the ways I give back.

Your stated needs are modest enough that dumpster diving would meet them just fine. Now, that's taking from nobody and obtaining for free the things that are free. Same with growing your own rooftop garden or any garden. Have you tried any of that?

About Dumpster Diving:
For a while I lived in Oakland/ San Francisco where I was introduced to the ways of dumpster diving (which is also "illegal"), not only as a means to sustain ourselves while conserving "waste", but also because we would prepare food to take down to the non-obstructive areas where the homeless would gather and offer it freely. After a half hour or so, the police would show up and shut us down because we were "disturbing the peace by instigating a crowd in a public place" (too many "undesirables" for the gentrified elitists' liking) and because "it's against (their) law to serve food without a license because it could be potentially harmful."

All the food thrown out by these companies that we dumpster dived for was fresh (often being thrown out the day of or even SEVERAL days before the expiration date), including bread, meats (rarely), and produce- all of which were thoroughly inspected, sorted, prepared, and cooked. Nobody to our knowledge became sick or complained, entirely the opposite. Entire families, men, women, and children, would thank us and scorn the police when THE POLICE would cause a ruckus and break us up.

Then they'd increase their patrol to correspond with when businesses throw their food out for trash pickup, to "crack down" on "foragers" and "trespassers". Obviously they needed to fill their quota of "criminals", and would prefer to break up good-hearted citizens instead of going after the real perpetrators of crime- the ones signing their paychecks.

If this has "Robin Hood"-esque feel to it, the actions are not inspired out of self-important contempt for authority, but out of compassion and innovation for better ways to survive in a matrix which seems hell-bent on taking all its prisoners down with the ship.

Also, many businesses around major cities lock their dumpsters at night due to dumpster divers, so dumpster diving (which I do occasionally) is not a viable means of sustaining oneself. When I have gone, typically the homeless are already on it and I feel have a higher priority.

Here's a very good article about poverty and waste in America: http://www.bukisa.com/articles/67090_dumpster-diving-legality-vs-morality



Also, let's make another thing clear: I've worked for grocery stores when I was younger (yes, I stole food then to help feed my deaf single mom and I while we teetered on the poverty line) so I understand how the exchange is made between suppliers and stores. The stores buy from the suppliers and mark up their products to sell. I do not steal from those who produce the food; they are paid in full from the grocery stores. The corporately owned companies are the ones who "suffer" an infinitesimal deficit in profit. And, again, I NEVER steal from farmer's markets; I gladly buy from them whenever I have the chance.

About Gardens:
I also have helped establish community gardens and rooftop gardens, as I spent approximately 2 years learning and practicing permaculture, year-round harvest (growing in the snow), canning and preserving, composting (food and human waste- "Humanure"), natural building, and farm animal care & maintenance. I was raised in rural Wisconsin and, though I'm an artist, I have a fondness for tangible living practices. I offer my help to those who want assistance in establishing gardens and ecologically conscious practices, but I've often (but not always) found those who ask for help are either just theoretically interested with no desire to apply the practices long-term, or demand rent (for occasionally visiting and staying in my van) and more communal involvement than I care to contribute, as I feel the demands for my attention detract from my Strategic Enclosure while increasing my fundamental knowledge of esoterica... In short, it's too "new agey" and frivolous.

In the future, I greatly desire a balance of community who is ecologically responsible while understanding the esoteric principles and aspirations shared in this forum. It is one of the intentions I carry with me always, and am always looking out for... I had considered WOOLF'ing it, but it might be somewhat lacking in esoteric peers. If anyone knows of esoterically mindful and consciously evolving communities or "land owners" looking to develop equity to their property, let me know puh-LEEZE!


As a side observation between myself and other friends who pay rent, taxes, and work consistent wage jobs, I notice (as the article above on Dumpster Diving will illustrate) that they waste considerable amounts of food with no consideration of others who might benefit from the leftovers, or ways to utilize the scraps (like composting, making a vegetable broth from the leftover scraps, etc). So I feel I understand the value of what I have sometimes even more than those who conform to the social circumstances they find themselves in.


Moreover, I do feed my "family"; my friends are the family I choose. I provide for friends and acquaintances, some of which are "by-the-book" citizens with rental properties who offer occasional use of amenities (shower, washing machine, etc... domestic stuff) and some who are younger with (what the state defines as) "psychological illnesses" whose families are dysfunctional. I provide not only food, but (in their descriptions) comfort, occasional housing when needed, healing, advice, and "mentorship" (through influence I think, as I don't consider myself a "teacher" or moral paragon by any means).

De-tached, did you write this post in the hopes that the members of this forum would help you provide justification to your friends since your current reasoning isn't causing them to see the situation your way? Perhaps it is making for an uncomfortable situation with you and your friends?

I wrote this post without hopes or expectations, nor to attempt to prove anything to anybody else. I wrote this with the intention of seeing myself more clearly, with the help of the forum. My stealing conflicts with the sensibilities of my friends who live "by the book". I'm unsure if it's due to a sincere concern for objective ethics and morality, or if it's due to a subjective preference derived from a sense of privilege or entitlement because they abide by social regulations (which they also paradoxically disagree with).

I don't think you truly understand how stealing affects people. Look around at various examples of what happens when the heads of these corporations have their financial situations threatened. The ones who end up paying the price are the people at the bottom.

Looking at the profit margins of the corporate, international supermarkets I steal from, their profit margins have all been steadily increasing, if not skyrocketing. Considering the figures and that I don't take much, I sincerely doubt that anyone's losing their jobs or that prices are increasing due to theft. If they increase, it's for more profit for the retailers, not the suppliers who are paid outright by through the "higher ups" of the retailers regardless of the retailer's profit/ loss margin.

You say you have no rent or utilities to pay. Do you have any debts that you use the money you receive to pay? If not then it makes little sense to me that you would need to steal. If you don't need to steal because of lack of funds, then the only reason I can come up with for your stealing would be for the thrill of it. Is this the case?

This would point to a deeper issue.

All the "debts" I have are to the federal government and to banking oligarchs who themselves are in debt for reasons I'm sure we're all familiar with...

Does anyone feel it would be spiritually or esoterically preferential to just beg mercy from banks and government for my outstanding debts, then get a wage job (or several if I allow the banks and government to sink their teeth into me) to work even harder than I do now (which when you work for yourself is considerable) to throw money into the corrosive abyss of government and international banking? Money that I would otherwise put toward community enhancing causes and esoterically prolific endeavors?

I recognize that there is some subtle deceptive self-importance in my actions, but I contend my contributions bring far greater benefit than negative feedback, and my "rationalizations" are justified considering the alternatives.
I'm trying to set aside my "appreciation of myself" blinding me, which is prohibiting me from getting further. Thank you all for your time, effort, and patience. You're helping many more people than just me. :)

 

[John G]

Hi de-tached, I think truth seeker was wondering where your free lance/unemployment money is spent and why it is not enough. It sounds like some goes to friends in bartering and helping ways. Does some go for the Van's gas maybe? One would still think you'd be OK until unemployment ran out? After that maybe you do have to consider yourself like the homeless and do it however they do it in your area? I think in the big picture the prices given the producers is effected by the loss rate to theft so you along with the other shoplifters do have an effect.

 

[flashgordonv]

Thank you all for your prompt and thorough replies.
In retrospect, I agree with many of you that there isn't enough information presented to fully decide. Hopefully I can answer your questions to offer further insight into the details, my motivations, and the ways I give back.

Wow, that all sounds like a bunch of high sounding word salad, designed to depict you as a sensitive, compassionate but misunderstood person fighting valiantly against the greedy corporate giants and the nasty grasping government.

de-tached, please answer the question you have been asked a number of times. Let me paraphrase - "When you steal food, is it because you are desperate and have no money or is it because the "giant corporations make obscene profits and you only take a little?"

 

[anart]

Wow, that all sounds like a bunch of high sounding word salad, designed to depict you as a sensitive, compassionate but misunderstood person fighting valiantly against the greedy corporate giants and the nasty grasping government.

That pretty much sums it up. de-tached cannot see himself or his actions as they are, only as his illusions depict them; as his self-importance defines them. I, personally, find it very interesting that he brought this up at all. Perhaps some infinitesimal part of him is actually asking for the Truth...

 

[RyanX]

I also have helped establish community gardens and rooftop gardens, as I spent approximately 2 years learning and practicing permaculture, year-round harvest (growing in the snow), canning and preserving, composting (food and human waste- "Humanure"), natural building, and farm animal care & maintenance. I was raised in rural Wisconsin and, though I'm an artist, I have a fondness for tangible living practices. I offer my help to those who want assistance in establishing gardens and ecologically conscious practices, but I've often (but not always) found those who ask for help are either just theoretically interested with no desire to apply the practices long-term, or demand rent (for occasionally visiting and staying in my van) and more communal involvement than I care to contribute, as I feel the demands for my attention detract from my Strategic Enclosure while increasing my fundamental knowledge of esoterica... In short, it's too "new agey" and frivolous.

de-tached,

Based on what you've posted here it sounds like you have some issues with money or to put it in esoteric terms, "energy exchange". Stealing food from corporations, not paying a host an honest amount of rent, not contributing adequately to community work. It sounds like you have lofty ideas and a lot of preconceived ideas about how people should live or subsist, but you don't want to do any of the heavy lifting and be the model for such a lifestyle.

I think what you've just written is a good example of a Buffer and a big one at that! The reality of what you do hasn't sunk in yet. You mentioned that you used to steal to supply food to your poverty stricken mother, so it sounds like this is a long held behavioral pattern. It might be worthwhile observing yourself while you're in the act of stealing. What is going through your mind? How do you feel? Do you have some subconscious need to steal in order to please others? What childhood wounds are you covering up by continuing this behavior?

Like anart said, I am surprised you brought up this topic as well. In that sense, it is quite brave of you to stand up to a mirror when the image is this ugly. The truth of your situation has been pointed out to you by many in this thread already. Now it is your choice to SEE it or continue with your buffering and over-rationalization.

 

[truth seeker]

I wrote this post without hopes or expectations, nor to attempt to prove anything to anybody else. I wrote this with the intention of seeing myself more clearly, with the help of the forum. My stealing conflicts with the sensibilities of my friends who live "by the book". I'm unsure if it's due to a sincere concern for objective ethics and morality, or if it's due to a subjective preference derived from a sense of privilege or entitlement because they abide by social regulations (which they also paradoxically disagree with).

I would say that you did come here with an expectation judging from the tone of your last post. If there is noting to defend, why so defensive?

Looking at the profit margins of the corporate, international supermarkets I steal from, their profit margins have all been steadily increasing, if not skyrocketing. Considering the figures and that I don't take much, I sincerely doubt that anyone's losing their jobs or that prices are increasing due to theft. If they increase, it's for more profit for the retailers, not the suppliers who are paid outright by through the "higher ups" of the retailers regardless of the retailer's profit/ loss margin.

This is a rationalization. The crux of the matter is that when done for any reason other than dire need, stealing is wrong.

All the "debts" I have are to the federal government and to banking oligarchs who themselves are in debt for reasons I'm sure we're all familiar with...

Does anyone feel it would be spiritually or esoterically preferential to just beg mercy from banks and government for my outstanding debts, then get a wage job (or several if I allow the banks and government to sink their teeth into me) to work even harder than I do now (which when you work for yourself is considerable) to throw money into the corrosive abyss of government and international banking? Money that I would otherwise put toward community enhancing causes and esoterically prolific endeavors?

This was crucial information that was missing from your first post. You didn't state whether you were in debt or not but rather implied that you were living the life of Reily.

I recognize that there is some subtle deceptive self-importance in my actions, but I contend my contributions bring far greater benefit than negative feedback, and my "rationalizations" are justified considering the alternatives.
I'm trying to set aside my "appreciation of myself" blinding me, which is prohibiting me from getting further. Thank you all for your time, effort, and patience. You're helping many more people than just me. :)

I'm not sure if you're referring to the responses you've received as negative feedback. Can you please clarify?

 

[Bar Kochba]

its amazing how the machine can rationalize anything. Its fascinating how everyone can see my chief fault but me. If you point this out to me i will most likely get defensive and angry. I used to steal books because in my mind i didnt see them as material possessions, that knowledge belongs to all. Now i see what a grave error that was and how much it held up my progress.

 

[Hildegarda]

and more communal involvement than I care to contribute, as I feel the demands for my attention detract from my Strategic Enclosure while increasing my fundamental knowledge of esoterica...

I can't think of a worse kind of strategic enclosure in your situation than stealing. But, giving to the community feels like too much. Sounds like you are simply doing what you want, and are justifying it.