Questions on the Ethics of Stealing and Survival.

[The rabbit]

Ultimately how you live your life is your choice - that is the beauty of free-will - and in that sense, it's ok. Just don't confuse it with esoterism, being an STO candidate, fighting the system or building strategic enclosure, because that is not what it is at all. Your life is simply another version of STS - and a very STS oriented life, in my opinion - and nothing more. You are obviously very comfortable with it, so perhaps you should reassess your interest in esoterism?

I totally agree with this. De tached has every right to live the way he chooses to , but to proclaim he is on an esoteric path beggars belief and is in need of as you rightly say Windmill knight re assessment .

I hope De tached does take what has been given in feed back to him seriously and does not twist things to suit his own needs so that he can stay locked into his own illusion of what he believes to be wrong and right.

I keep meaning to write and i will now , "Render up to cæser that which is cæsers. Forgive me if thats not totally correct.

 

[John G]

I keep meaning to write and i will now , "Render up to cæser that which is cæsers. Forgive me if thats not totally correct.

Yeah I remember the Cs advising Laura to help Ark sell himself the American way when Ark first came to the US. I'd take my job back at IBM (they laid me off eight years ago). For one thing I could make much larger donations to SOTT/Cass/FOTCM. My sister in law had to tackle a shoplifter where she works, there's just something about stealing that makes it an absolute last resort even if on paper it's less bad than people who go bankrupt after living beyond their means.

 

[Gimpy]

Ultimately how you live your life is your choice - that is the beauty of free-will - and in that sense, it's ok. Just don't confuse it with esoterism, being an STO candidate, fighting the system or building strategic enclosure, because that is not what it is at all. Your life is simply another version of STS - and a very STS oriented life, in my opinion - and nothing more. You are obviously very comfortable with it, so perhaps you should reassess your interest in esoterism?

I agree with Windmill Knight, too. Stealing is a crime that is guarded against, and eventually, the thief gets caught. It requires all your time and energy to stay a step ahead and vigilant to avoid that, and that kind of investment in a lifestyle is counterproductive to the Work, osit.

 

[Brenda86]

Quote from: Brenda86
...it doesn't really cut into the profits of these huge, corrupt corporations. This may be true, but what if you and 100 other people who shop at the same store have this same idea?

How about this...
"To live comfortably and conveniently to my culturally conditioned preferences, I'm going to live in an industrial civilization that relies on perpetual expansion and consumption of natural resources."

This rationalization almost made me laugh de-tached, and I don't meant that to be rude, but I (and I think this goes for a lot of people) do not live where I live because I chose to (in the bigger sense, like COUNTRY or STATE). I was born here and I do the best with what I have. I can't afford to move. Even if I just got to walking I'd only end up in Canada or Mexico - not much better choices. It's not feasible to swim across the ocean.

Beyond that... how many times on this forum has it been said - IT'S NOT WHERE YOU LIVE, BUT WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU SEE.

Most people can't afford to pack up and move to a deserted island, nor would that be prudent in most cases. Sure you could sit around and contemplate your belly button, but you'd be ignoring all that's going on in the world.

What's interesting is that you see a corrupt system and chose to be corrupt, as well, as anart said, you are feeding the entropy here. You asked for a mirror, but you are trying to manipulate it - aiming it at other issues rather than the one you asked about. You didn't ask about libraries, or music, or art, you asked about stealing food. Everyone pretty much seems to agree that if it were a truly dire situation that it would be necessary, but that in your case you seem to be doing it because it is more convenient for you.

I am definitely in agreement with Windmill Knight:

De-tached, my impression is that you were never really asking for objective feedback from the forum; what you really wanted was the forum to pat you on the back and tell you that what you do is alright. That didn't happen, so you have been rationalizing through relativism and legalism.

Ultimately how you live your life is your choice - that is the beauty of free-will - and in that sense, it's ok. Just don't confuse it with esoterism, being an STO candidate, fighting the system or building strategic enclosure, because that is not what it is at all. Your life is simply another version of STS - and a very STS oriented life, in my opinion - and nothing more. You are obviously very comfortable with it, so perhaps you should reassess your interest in esoterism?

And... as always, I want to remind you that we are not saying these things to you out of anything but love - even if it may seem harsh at the time.

 

[Gonzo]

Hi de-tached,

We generally agree that stealing is wrong, but acceptable in some cases. For example, we view murder as wrong, but killing in self defense may be acceptable.

But I'm sensing that you don't necessarily see it that way. You seem to have rationalized that stealing might be wrong, depending on who the owner is.

I used to think that when I was a young anarchist in the 80s, when I had an 'eat the rich' attitude. And I found my opinions easily reinforced by belonging to a peer group of like minded individuals and limiting my exposure to information that didn't challenge my thinking beyond the belief structure I had formed. In reality, it became a form of self hypnosis and brainwashing IMO.

But imagine if everyone woke up one day with the view that large, profitable corporations are fair game to steal from. I can only imagine that we wouldn't be able to afford grocery stores, as the price of everything would have gone up forcing the poor into even greater hardship.

I guess you have to assess how much value you put on the thoughts of those to whom you have asked. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you hold, at the very least, the more senior members on this forum in high regard and you chose to inquire here so that you would receive as close to objective assessments as possible from these valued people.

Unfortunately, when the responses were not in accord with your desired and anticipated outcome, perhaps you assumed it was because you weren't clear enough, didn't provide enough context, etc. And then once you provided further information and the reflection back hadn't changed, I imagine it might have been a shock.

This then offers you a few choices, some of which are:
- you could reduce the value in your mind of those you moments earlier held in high regard;
- you could think that if you could still provide further context, the responses would be more along your desired outcome, thinking they just don't understand;
- you could consider the comments to be accurate, requiring you to humble yourself enough to re-assess your beliefs and opinions.

I would hope that you would choose the third options, so that you open the door to genuine growth, as painful and difficult it may be.

Most people here know how difficult this would be and the moment you show signs of such humility and direction, their caring, support and empathy will be evident.

The greater your investment into a certain belief, the more difficult its change would appear. If much of your inputs are in alignment with a belief and little time is spent in attempting objective analysis with a network, the more likely you will have a hard time even seeing the need for change.

As well, you might even find fewer obstacles in your life if you can become more flexible in your thinking, forming working hypothesis subject to re-evaluation with the arrival of new information.
And then there's the issue of karmic debt. If you take, regardless of whether it be from a rich man, poor man or corporate giant with obscene profits, you have created an energy imbalance that will someday need to be balanced. It doesn't matter that the company you take from also creates imbalances, that is their karma and you are responsible only for your own.

I hope this helps you clarify the issue a bit.

Regards,
Gonzo

 

[de-tached]

Hello again!

A few friends have inquired about the resolution to this issue, because it's been a while since the last post. Gnosis takes time and considerable effort, which is why I've abstained from posting preemptive thoughts.

But in the interest of replying in a timely manner, I'd like to say that, while I still occasionally find myself confronting a residual self-important part of me that wants to rationalize the entropic tendency of shoplifting, the part embracing creative innovations coupled with the intention of wanting to produce and give, rather than take and give, has been exponentially gaining ground and finding unexpected avenues of opportunity.

In discussing the issue with many people, I've found MANY friends and acquaintances going through similar dilemmas which are all convoluted by self-interest, laziness, lack of creative problem solving, and other various external circumstances. But in talking it over and networking, it led to meeting people who were interested in rooftop gardening and landshare as a renewable solution to high-price food demands and dwindling community empowerment. I'm very excited to see where it leads. :)

I've found myself experimenting with disregarding the categorical classifications of "good" and "bad" toward many of the social circumstances I find myself in, because my intellect, which seeks logical absolute closure, inevitably finds the only reasonable sense within the assimilation of paradox which opens my mind to weave whatever sort of sense it needs to, which can easily and subtly deceive itself. Instead, I've taken to thinking in terms of creating innovative, prolific, contributory solutions vs. temporary parasitic patches of immediate gratification. Give a person a fish vs. Teaching a person to fish...

The latter takes much more effort, but, as always, is ultimately and infinitely more fulfilling and beneficial to all.

As you've all illustrated by helping to teach me.

Thank you all for your patience and support. Truly. <3

 

[de-tached]

In reading "Gnosis: the Mesoteric Cycle" I came across a pertinent passage that really hit home...

"There is certainly nothing new in man substituting a tradition of his own for the Tradition that has a divine origin ... and then becoming enslaved by his own invention. Jesus reproached the chosen people of having emptied the divine word of its essence of which they were the trustees and replacing it with rituals and human verbosity. For it is a fact that human traditions create true conditioned reflexes which then prevent the exertion of the critical mind necessary for adaptation to circumstance.

The apostle Peter analyzes this problem in the second chapter of his second Epistle: he tells how when those who had the eyes to see and the ears to hear crossed the threshold which separates the Cycle of the Father from Cycle of the Son, false doctors, obsessed by the past, were sometimes able to lead them back to the ancient beliefs. St Peter tells us concerning those doctors:

II Peter ii: 17-22

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

... That's the cherry on the "Wake up!" sundae for this topic...
Thank you all again.