Raine, Samenow, Fallon: Neuropsychology & The Work

Beau

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luc said:
I'm currently reading Raine's book (still at the beginning), and I feel the same about him - after Collingwood, at first I thought it will be an easy read, but while it's not very demanding intellectually, there is something deeply disturbing about these topics. Notably, I sense a direct connection between my own shortcomings, my own automatic behavior that may be damaging to others if I'm not aware enough all the time, and the murderous, psychopathic cases discussed in the book. It's really horrific to think about it that way, but there it is - it's the same thing. It's the dark path that lurks behind every little act that we commit if we don't pay strict attention and that we then rationalize away. I guess we need to face this horror, and these books seem to facilitate that greatly.
Indeed, that is similar to what I am noticing while reading Inside the Criminal Mind. That connection you speak of shows that it's not just the criminals in Samenow's case studies who should be worried about their thinking, but all of us. We should all be examining our thinking and behavior which can lead us away from where we want to go. I'd say one of the really important things the book does is give you a really personal terror of the situation, which is something that can be hard to get otherwise. If the book is read in that way not just in a detached way where one is merely reading about criminals 'not like me', I think it can be incredibly useful.
 

Redrock12

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Beau said:
luc said:
I'm currently reading Raine's book (still at the beginning), and I feel the same about him - after Collingwood, at first I thought it will be an easy read, but while it's not very demanding intellectually, there is something deeply disturbing about these topics. Notably, I sense a direct connection between my own shortcomings, my own automatic behavior that may be damaging to others if I'm not aware enough all the time, and the murderous, psychopathic cases discussed in the book. It's really horrific to think about it that way, but there it is - it's the same thing. It's the dark path that lurks behind every little act that we commit if we don't pay strict attention and that we then rationalize away. I guess we need to face this horror, and these books seem to facilitate that greatly.
Indeed, that is similar to what I am noticing while reading Inside the Criminal Mind. That connection you speak of shows that it's not just the criminals in Samenow's case studies who should be worried about their thinking, but all of us. We should all be examining our thinking and behavior which can lead us away from where we want to go. I'd say one of the really important things the book does is give you a really personal terror of the situation, which is something that can be hard to get otherwise. If the book is read in that way not just in a detached way where one is merely reading about criminals 'not like me', I think it can be incredibly useful.
Indeed, Samenow connects directly to what Mouravieff states in his gnosis trilogy that, to paraphrase, a man isn't capable of 4th way work if he is satisfied with himself the way he is at present, taking credit for all his successes and blaming others, or circumstances, for his failures and shortcomings.
So when Samenow puts his habitual criminals on the hotseat, placing the blame directly on them for their criminal behavior, he's actually practicing 4th way work on them. Or a version of it anyway.
 

Mariama

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Beau said:
luc said:
I'm currently reading Raine's book (still at the beginning), and I feel the same about him - after Collingwood, at first I thought it will be an easy read, but while it's not very demanding intellectually, there is something deeply disturbing about these topics. Notably, I sense a direct connection between my own shortcomings, my own automatic behavior that may be damaging to others if I'm not aware enough all the time, and the murderous, psychopathic cases discussed in the book. It's really horrific to think about it that way, but there it is - it's the same thing. It's the dark path that lurks behind every little act that we commit if we don't pay strict attention and that we then rationalize away. I guess we need to face this horror, and these books seem to facilitate that greatly.
Indeed, that is similar to what I am noticing while reading Inside the Criminal Mind. That connection you speak of shows that it's not just the criminals in Samenow's case studies who should be worried about their thinking, but all of us. We should all be examining our thinking and behavior which can lead us away from where we want to go. I'd say one of the really important things the book does is give you a really personal terror of the situation, which is something that can be hard to get otherwise. If the book is read in that way not just in a detached way where one is merely reading about criminals 'not like me', I think it can be incredibly useful.
I couldn't agree more. I am reading Raine's book now (still about 70 pages to go) and this book is giving me small and big shocks on a very visceral level. I have to take it very slowly at times, because it makes me go back in time. I start to understand why I had or have such problems with anger (probably because my hippocampus was damaged in some way) and what I did wrong as a parent. I think it is a very painful read and some passages have hit me like a ton of bricks, but it also makes me more understanding of my children and others. Even writing this unleashes a small torrent of sensations. I am not sure whether I understand everything correctly, but there it is.
 

jhonny

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Mariama said:
Beau said:
luc said:
I'm currently reading Raine's book (still at the beginning), and I feel the same about him - after Collingwood, at first I thought it will be an easy read, but while it's not very demanding intellectually, there is something deeply disturbing about these topics. Notably, I sense a direct connection between my own shortcomings, my own automatic behavior that may be damaging to others if I'm not aware enough all the time, and the murderous, psychopathic cases discussed in the book. It's really horrific to think about it that way, but there it is - it's the same thing. It's the dark path that lurks behind every little act that we commit if we don't pay strict attention and that we then rationalize away. I guess we need to face this horror, and these books seem to facilitate that greatly.
Indeed, that is similar to what I am noticing while reading Inside the Criminal Mind. That connection you speak of shows that it's not just the criminals in Samenow's case studies who should be worried about their thinking, but all of us. We should all be examining our thinking and behavior which can lead us away from where we want to go. I'd say one of the really important things the book does is give you a really personal terror of the situation, which is something that can be hard to get otherwise. If the book is read in that way not just in a detached way where one is merely reading about criminals 'not like me', I think it can be incredibly useful.
I couldn't agree more. I am reading Raine's book now (still about 70 pages to go) and this book is giving me small and big shocks on a very visceral level. I have to take it very slowly at times, because it makes me go back in time. I start to understand why I had or have such problems with anger (probably because my hippocampus was damaged in some way) and what I did wrong as a parent. I think it is a very painful read and some passages have hit me like a ton of bricks, but it also makes me more understanding of my children and others. Even writing this unleashes a small torrent of sensations. I am not sure whether I understand everything correctly, but there it is.
Same here! While reading Raine’s book I remembered that I was born with forceps and my mom suffered from preeclampsia. Actually I’m so worried that I have been thinking of researching more about the consequenses for the brain.
 

Renaissance

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jhonny said:
Same here! While reading Raine’s book I remembered that I was born with forceps and my mom suffered from preeclampsia. Actually I’m so worried that I have been thinking of researching more about the consequenses for the brain.
Samenow's work is useful in this regard because he doesn't give any value to figuring such things out (at least in terms of changing behaviors, which is what his focus is on). All that matters is identifying thinking errors and correcting them.
 

Odyssey

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Renaissance said:
jhonny said:
Same here! While reading Raine’s book I remembered that I was born with forceps and my mom suffered from preeclampsia. Actually I’m so worried that I have been thinking of researching more about the consequenses for the brain.
Samenow's work is useful in this regard because he doesn't give any value to figuring such things out (at least in terms of changing behaviors, which is what his focus is on). All that matters is identifying thinking errors and correcting them.
I appreciate the fact that he focused on changing the behavior. Deciphering all of the reasons why a particular state may occur, though enlightening, can be an energy suck on the real work of changing the behavior.

So, having read The Myth of the Out of Character Crime -- a real page-turner, by the way -- I thought it really pushed home how dangerous thinking errors are even if you're not committing any crimes or think that your thoughts impact anyone else (which in itself is a thinking error). At the very least you should realize that you are committing a 'crime' against yourself or the ideal person that you want to become.
 

Approaching Infinity

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Odyssey said:
Renaissance said:
jhonny said:
Same here! While reading Raine’s book I remembered that I was born with forceps and my mom suffered from preeclampsia. Actually I’m so worried that I have been thinking of researching more about the consequenses for the brain.
Samenow's work is useful in this regard because he doesn't give any value to figuring such things out (at least in terms of changing behaviors, which is what his focus is on). All that matters is identifying thinking errors and correcting them.
I appreciate the fact that he focused on changing the behavior. Deciphering all of the reasons why a particular state may occur, though enlightening, can be an energy suck on the real work of changing the behavior.

So, having read The Myth of the Out of Character Crime -- a real page-turner, by the way -- I thought it really pushed home how dangerous thinking errors are even if you're not committing any crimes or think that your thoughts impact anyone else (which in itself is a thinking error). At the very least you should realize that you are committing a 'crime' against yourself or the ideal person that you want to become.
I think the two can even go together. Raine provides a pretty comprehensive list of risk factors. Any of us here on the forum can do a little investigation and see how many may apply to us: minor physical anomalies, birth complications, malnutrition, heavy metals, brain injury, etc. But since we're all here with the purpose of building our will and correcting our thinking errors, these can be guides. For instance, "Wow, based on this I'm really predisposed to violence. So which areas should I work on to mitigate the possible effects?" In other words, not to use such things as an excuse to justify behavior, but as a motivator for change.

Reading Samenow after reading Raine, my current hypothesis is this: perhaps a lot of "out of character" crime would not occur if risk factors were identified and taken care of. That might reduce crime, but it wouldn't necessarily do anything about changing the actual character of the people who commit those crimes. Perhaps they would still be manipulative, controlling individuals. In which case, identifying risk factors won't change much. Instead, work on character is important, i.e. fixing thinking errors.
 

Laura

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The following posts were posted in the Gurdjieff Cosmology thread, but were so a propos to this discussion, I thought I would quote them here for my response.

T.C. said:
Divide By Zero said:
T.C. said:
Reading Samenow's so difficult for me because every other paragraph triggers painful self-remembering or flickering snapshots, lasting for seconds, or minutes, or me having to put down the book and smoke a cig. It really should be known here as, "Inside the Predator's Mind." The only argument (or buffer!) I have against the idea that, "It could have been written about me," is that the Predator gave us their mind, so it's not really me...

Pretty kundabuffer-destroying, anyway.
Agreed! However, when I think of the Predator giving us their mind, I think of survival/evolution. Survival requires fooling of the self, especially in hard conditions of the past. The brain adapted to fool itself to instill motivation and/or narration of a story in order to keep the organism going, in this case the human brain.
Yes and no. What you're saying is true - or I agree with it, anyway. But it's only one way of surviving.

Remember in the beginning of Anatomy of Violence. Raine compares two different cultures. One is murderously psychopathic, but the other one is not; instead, it is cooperative!

So we can't excuse our selfishness by saying, "It's for our own good and the good of others." It might very well be, if we base the "good" on the selfish gene theory. But that doesn't mean it's necessary.

We're not much different than the animals in the lab tested by Pavlov, etc. I still doubt the idea of an outside force doing this directly. What if 4d STS is a possible future evolution instead of the cause of what we are (which can be explained by evolution and seeing how animals do similar things)?
Reminds me of Laura's "Eclipsing of Realities" experience. I don't think it matters either way because it pretty much amounts to the same thing - past, present and future. It's still only one 'branch' of evolution. We could choose a different one.
I think that everyone can see themselves in Samenow's work on the Criminal Mind, only what we see is "there, but for the grace of God..." And we realize all too painfully that, even though we didn't go there, we still have those kinds of thinking errors, some of us more often than others. It is painful to reflect on our lives and see all the times things went South in our relationships because of such errors. And, perhaps for some, there is a terrifying realization that this is what is still going on and it isn't pretty!

What is interesting is that Samenow has exposed the "Predator's Mind" in a way that is eminently practical and clear, and the consequences of some thinking errors allowed to run without challenge, is horrifyingly evident. If you want to see THAT play out, then read Ressler's "Whoever Fights Monsters". That should give you a big dose of the "Terror of the Situation."

What is also interesting is that we have talked about all of these things for years now; I wrote about it at length in The Wave; it is discussed in many of the previously recommended books in various ways; but until you read Samenow's clear, practical, on the spot examples of what it is and how it works and where it goes, it's all still just theoretical and you can use that same Predator's mind to argue your way out of it.

Also, Samenow's examples and his system of therapy highlights the value of what we do here, The Work, The Mirror, etc. And it is a much better method we have been devising and working with over the years than what is otherwise available elsewhere. Yes, obviously, from Samenow and Raine, Fallon and Ressler, we can see that The Work is NOT for everyone. But those who can do it from the position of the obyvatel instead of from the position of the criminal, may find benefits and blessings beyond anything they imagined.
 

Echo Blue

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I want to thank Laura and everyone contributing to this thread with their comments. I'm reading Inside the Criminal Mind, and at the beginning I found it a very difficult read, and wasn't even sure why I was being tasked to read this book. I stopped and started reading several times. But I finally have struggled and read three quarters of the way through. And I am so happy that I did keep on reading.

The comments and insights posted in this thread have kept me going and wanting to learn more. And all of a sudden things are starting to click in my head. I'm having some interesting aha moments into the way my mind works and thinks. That has been a real surprise to me. And for someone who wanted to give up early on with the list of recommended reading, I'm glad I didn't.
 

Altair

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Echo Blue said:
I want to thank Laura and everyone contributing to this thread with their comments. I'm reading Inside the Criminal Mind, and at the beginning I found it a very difficult read, and wasn't even sure why I was being tasked to read this book. I stopped and started reading several times. But I finally have struggled and read three quarters of the way through. And I am so happy that I did keep on reading.

The comments and insights posted in this thread have kept me going and wanting to learn more. And all of a sudden things are starting to click in my head. I'm having some interesting aha moments into the way my mind works and thinks. That has been a real surprise to me. And for someone who wanted to give up early on with the list of recommended reading, I'm glad I didn't.
Could you share with us some of these aha moments?
 

Laura

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Altair said:
Echo Blue said:
I want to thank Laura and everyone contributing to this thread with their comments. I'm reading Inside the Criminal Mind, and at the beginning I found it a very difficult read, and wasn't even sure why I was being tasked to read this book. I stopped and started reading several times. But I finally have struggled and read three quarters of the way through. And I am so happy that I did keep on reading.

The comments and insights posted in this thread have kept me going and wanting to learn more. And all of a sudden things are starting to click in my head. I'm having some interesting aha moments into the way my mind works and thinks. That has been a real surprise to me. And for someone who wanted to give up early on with the list of recommended reading, I'm glad I didn't.
Could you share with us some of these aha moments?
Yes, please!

And you (and everyone else) will have even more such insights while reading "The Myth of the Out of Character Crime." He really peels the onion there!
 

Pashalis

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Haven't jet delved into the books mentioned in this thread. Hopefully soon I'll do so, after finishing Speculum Mentis. Having followed the discussion here and noticed some interesting or lets say rather frightening things, I think it might be worthwhile to bring the following up. If it derails the discussion, please feel free to remove it.

In my "free time", that is, when driving from and to work I'm currently hearing Jordan Petersons lectures on the bible and a couple of very interesting things came up that I thought needed to be brought up here in this discussion, because they are 1: closely related to the discussion 2: explain a bit how he has been going through a similar process of discovering how serious and dangerous we ourselves can really be , if we not pay strict attention and constantly work on ourselves 3: how dangerous naivete is 4: how there is essentially only one thing that can "set us free" which is the truth. At one point Peterson started to notice a split developing in him, pretty much like the "it" and the "I" in Gurdjieffs terms.

I spare you the detailed description of the following three lecture parts, because I can't put all Peterson brings across there as well as he can. If you have time, I think it very worthwhile to listen to those parts closely. All three videos start at the right point.

The first one he discusses how important it is to fully realize the dark parts of ourselves (the monster) and how dangerous naivete is, and how it is even more dangerous if you think "I have nothing to do with this stuff" and life in a bubble where nothing directly applies to you personally. It goes from 1:35:04 - 1:48:07:




https://youtu.be/R_GPAl_q2QQ?start=5704

In this lecture Peterson tells his own story and how he discovered his monster and how terrifying it was/is to realize that. How he lied a lot. Out of this shock a second part in him developed that watched everything "it" did and said, so that he at one point realized he pretty much couldn't say 95 percent of the things he would normally say. After that he also started to notice that when he says something that he shouldn't say that it robs him energy immediately. He also mentions how when this monster is in control everyone around you suffers and you contributing to the bad in the world far more then you think. Conversely if you get your act together you can contribute positively in your environment and in the world far more then you think. Sort of like the Butterfly effect. It goes from 36:10 - 50:36.


https://youtu.be/6gFjB9FTN58?start=2170

And finally in this lecture he speaks about the only thing that makes us and our environment better, which is the truth. No matter how hard the recognition and realization of it might be:


https://youtu.be/_ttzBz55e8k
 

Echo Blue

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Laura said:
Altair said:
Echo Blue said:
I want to thank Laura and everyone contributing to this thread with their comments. I'm reading Inside the Criminal Mind, and at the beginning I found it a very difficult read, and wasn't even sure why I was being tasked to read this book. I stopped and started reading several times. But I finally have struggled and read three quarters of the way through. And I am so happy that I did keep on reading.

The comments and insights posted in this thread have kept me going and wanting to learn more. And all of a sudden things are starting to click in my head. I'm having some interesting aha moments into the way my mind works and thinks. That has been a real surprise to me. And for someone who wanted to give up early on with the list of recommended reading, I'm glad I didn't.
Could you share with us some of these aha moments?
Yes, please!

And you (and everyone else) will have even more such insights while reading "The Myth of the Out of Character Crime." He really peels the onion there!
Will do. Just need to organize my thoughts a bit.
When I get an Aha! Moment, I can get so excited that, like my dreams, I tend to quickly start forgetting the details.
 

stellar

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Renaissance said:
jhonny said:
Same here! While reading Raine’s book I remembered that I was born with forceps and my mom suffered from preeclampsia. Actually I’m so worried that I have been thinking of researching more about the consequenses for the brain.
Samenow's work is useful in this regard because he doesn't give any value to figuring such things out (at least in terms of changing behaviors, which is what his focus is on). All that matters is identifying thinking errors and correcting them.
That's what I am hoping for; identifying and correcting. I am aware that I may not be able to repair some of the damage done to my kids in the ignorance of parenthood so once I have read and hopefully understood the books I may share with them, also, any new realisations. Whatever I can do to mend my past and existing thinking flaws and create new correct ones, I am willing to put the work in. I just ordered all 4 books which should arrive in time for the holidays to keep me busy.
 

Jones

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Pashalis:

After that he also started to notice that when he says something that he shouldn't say that it robs him energy immediately.
I recognise this sensation at times, and I also recognise the struggle against saying something I perhaps shouldn't. It ain't always easy. Sometimes it wins.

I wonder though if this dynamic works in the opposite way for some? I mean if lying actually energises them instead of de-energising them? Or if it's a contextual thing. For example the lies that people tell in order to protect others from harm? Those that were helping to protect the Jews in Nazi Germany as one thing that comes to mind.
 
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