Ray Peat: The importance of sugar and the dangers of fat (stress) metabolism

[Tyomodachi]

One thing to consider: I read a LOT of archaeological site reports and one thing that is notable is that the archaeologists can always tell the hunters from the agriculturalists by the state of their health as read from bones etc. It was noted very early by archaeologists/paleontologists that agriculture brought tooth decay, many diseases, and shortening of the lifespan. So I don't think I would suggest that it is in anyway good for anybody when it is so notable in the historical record how bad it was.

The grain diet of the [Chinese] peasant warriors stunted their bones, rotted their teeth, and left them weak and prone to disease. In contrast, the poorest Mongol soldier ate mostly protein, thereby giving him strong teeth and bones. Unlike the Jurched [Chinese] soldiers, who were dependent on a heavy carbohydrate diet, the Mongols could more easily go a day or two without food.

Traditional armies moved in long columns of men marching the same route with their large supplies of food following them. By contrast, the Mongol army spread out over a vast area to provide sufficient pasture for the animals and to maximize hunting opportunities for the soldiers.

I'm reading Ray Peat translated articles now and he has covered the causes of this bone degradation quite well.
Firstly the importance of carbon dioxide (CO2) which RP writes a lot about in general. Specifically in the matter of calcium in the bones and excessive soft tissue calcification, sufficient CO2 prevents free calcium from entering the soft tissue cell. And according to him digestion of simple glucose gives several times more carbon dioxide than complex carbohydrates in particular starch. As proof, he cites an experiment on mice deficient in vitamin D in food, one group of mice received 68% starch and the other group received 68% sucrose. The starch group had a lot of bone problems with all the signs of calcium deficiency, but the sucrose group had normally developed healthy bones (albeit lighter than the non vitamin D deficient mice)
And the second culprit RP declares is parathyroid hormone (PTH), which is responsible for the leaching of calcium from the bones. He blames low-protein diets (less than 0.8g/kg body weight) for PTH production; adequate protein intake inhibits PTH production.

So low-protein, high-starch farmers' diets made us sicker, which is something we do not get from nomads who eat mostly milk (lots of calcium + casein protein) and meat (protein) and at the other end of the dietary spectrum the high-carbohydrate Kitawans, Tukisenta and Okinawans in their diets 60-90% of calories come from carbs and although they are low-protein (in the Okinawan diet carbs to protein are 10:1, and the Tukisenta have 25:1), but they get plenty of sun for Vit D and their diets are based on sweat potato, which have a sucrose-to-starch ratio of ~1:1. i.e. enough cellular carbon dioxide.

 

[Matai]

I woke up this morning to the news that Ray Peat has passed away at the age of 86.

I know on this forum the paleo/keto/carnivore diet approach is largely recommended with some leeway depending upon individual tolerances for carbohydrates, as backed up by the Cs in previous sessions.

Ray's dietary advice was broad and wide ranging and often included recommendations somewhat counter to those recommended by the forum, such as his emphasis on the importance of carbohydrates/sugar. He did largely, however, maintain a flexible approach to eating and even stated in his later years that a carnivore diet is adequate provided someone ensured they had enough calcium from dairy/well cooked greens, with the provision that one experimented to find what works best for them.

I am feeling a deep sorrow at his passing. I have always struggled through my multiple attempts at doing low/carb/keto/carnivore type diets and it was in Ray Peat's extensive work that I found the necessary knowledge and inspiration to piece together the near optimal diet for myself as well as with great assistance from information on the forum.

Ray was a truly prodigious individual who dispersed tens if not hundreds of thousands of emails to questioners world wide throughout his lifetime, all free and with no obligation to follow him or but some latest product. He also had a large collection of free articles available for all to read and did regular podcasts where he also freely disseminated his immense knowledge of the human body and its functions. Even his paid for newsletters were very inexpensive and very well notated and thorough.

In addition to this, he was a stellar individual who was obviously remarkably intelligent, creative and free thinking. Regardless of your stance on his diet advice, his social commentary on philosophy, politics and history was very co-linear with that of the forum. Whether it was him discussing the the mirage of the left/right divide, covid, Russia/Ukraine, or the spy agencies, he consistently saw reality left and right and did this largely by himself without any seemingly substantial network.

I am blessed to rarely feel depressed or down, but at a certain point in my early to mid twenties I nearly lost all hope and had only shreds of faith remaining for my ailing health, despite repeated trials of low carb and other health interventions. Ray Peat helped me through this time to heal and come out stronger and for this I am eternally grateful and actually find myself in tears as I write this.

Unfortunately, as with many things in our world, his death has already been marked as potentially suspicious by some of his followers on the Ray Peat forum. Only recently he could be heard on recent podcasts maintaining his usual cheer, insight, memory and astute commentary on a range of topics. The details of his passing are not yet clear, so I will refrain from venturing much further into this but Peat himself has been quoted as saying that the deaths of multiple people involved in an interview series he did including biologist Gilbert Ling and others soon suspiciously passed away shortly after this was made. There has been extensive interviews of him discussing how he believed the CIA was involved with shutting down a University he previously set up and other strange occurrences. Or perhaps it was simply his time, I don't know.

Regardless, I am sending him my love and gratitude, for he was a great man who helped many people selflessly and with integrity, I rarely post due to life's commitments and my innate hesitancy, which I am constantly struggling to overcome. Ray's passing has pulled my conscience to write this to contribute in my own very small way of commemorating him and hoping him a gentle journey to the other side as well as to keep the essence of his work alive.

 

[ELT]

Such an informative thread, fascinating to me, as often.

I was about to reply to a certain post, then by keep reading to the end I saw the idea coming up :

It seems that weight loss is very little to do with the fuel source, but very much dependent on caloric intake and energy expenditure. I am tending toward thinking that macro-nutrients are of little importance when compared with macronutrient quantity , physical activity, and ability to effectively burn those calories. For some people they are better at burning fat, other people are better at burning carbohydrate.

It looks indeed like the cause of excess endotoxin isn't from some particular culprit, say sugar/glucose or fat, but from the quantity-excess- of any (whatever the amount is considered excessive for each person). So, not much about the 'what', and more about the 'how', even if 'how much' will end up determining 'what' we eat, in some way...

I found the the glycine infos compelling, yet perplexing. It was presented as "The Cure", but when I read the following...

Keyhole said : (from article)

When you eat an unbalanced diet high in fat/sugar/alcohol, you get bacterial stuff called “endotoxin” into your bloodstream.

Endotoxin is not very harmful in itself, but it can activate your immune system via a toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4) which is a very important factor behind metabolic syndrome and other chronic diseases.

Many animal studies have shown that inappropriate amounts of junk food increase endotoxin and lead to abdominal obesity and other problems such as high blood pressure and impaired thyroid hormone metabolism. Studies have also shown that you get the same health problems from a sole endotoxin injection, without the junk food.

It seems that the fat/sugar/alcohol we are eating is actually not so harmful. The harm doesn’t come from these macronutrients. It comes from the diet-induced increase in the blood levels of endotoxin and the subsequent immune reaction. There are actually many studies showing that if you reduce endotoxin levels or reduce inflammation, you make rats very resistant to diet-induced obesity and other problems.[2-15]

...I see that bringing glycine in the picture of "unbalanced diet -> high endotoxin lvl -> inflammation -> illness" may be very helpful to heal, but would only act as a "quick fix" at the second stage, without really curing the origin, i.e. Diet.

That is, only though the long and laborious experiment to find our own individual balanced diet can we reach optimal health. Such is our duty.
Again, the intentional suffering of "heating the crucible" is at the centre.

Anyway, I also wanted to ask @Keyhole, how did the rest of your High Carbs experiment go, from hindsight ?

I think the problem is still sugar, or simple carbohydrates. Would anyone bother eating these foods if they didn't contain sugar? Probably not. It's the hook that gets people to eat them. But, then I'm a sugar addict.

Indeed in part, and as you stated at the end, we're here entering the field of pharmacological effects of sugar, which is another topic than saying "sugar makes us obese", per se. So no, though indirectly yes through its addictive properties that make overeat it.

 

[Keyhole]

Anyway, I also wanted to ask @Keyhole, how did the rest of your High Carbs experiment go, from hindsight ?

You will notice I started this thread about 7 years ago. Ray peat's work is super popular now and many people are just discovering it. Well, I have dabbled and played around with his ideas on-and-off since before starting this thread.

I personally feel much better eating higher carb and lower fat.

I usually consume anywhere from 150-300grams carbohydrates and perhaps 50-80g fat per day. It works much better with my physiology, compared with low-carb-high-fat.

The carbohydrate comes from fruit, rice and potato, and juice. The more I learn the more I am convinced that Ray Peat's overall philosophy is quite sound, at least for some people. I don't agree with everything, particularly the anti-omega 3 stance, and the anti-microbiome stance.

But yeah, it suits me surprisingly well.

 

[Regulattor]

Just want to add my experiences with higher carb consumption. I have been on a proper ketogenic diet for years since it was published on this forum and although it surely did help with some health issues of mine i.e. seasonal asthma, in the long run, I've stumbled upon some issues with this diet approach. One of them was a problem with being underweight. I'm 5'9 and sometimes my body weight used to drop to only 59 kg during dose years. Most of the time my weight would stick around 62 kg but what was most negative during strict keto was constipation. Whatever I was doing in this regard, whether adding more probiotics via supplements or sauerkraut or whatever, it simply didn't work. It was so bad that I developed problems with hemorrhoids. There was also a noticeable fall in my energy levels during afternoons. So, a couple of years ago I decided to add some carbs back into my diet and it seems things have improved. I'm now quite regular with bowel movement and I've even put some weight on. Now I start with protein and fats only in the window from 9 a.m. to 2 p.m. adding carbs later during the day, usually 100 to 200 grams, mostly via white rice, potatoes, and occasionally buckwheat.

 

[ELT]

You will notice I started this thread about 7 years ago. Ray peat's work is super popular now and many people are just discovering it. Well, I have dabbled and played around with his ideas on-and-off since before starting this thread.

I personally feel much better eating higher carb and lower fat.

I usually consume anywhere from 150-300grams carbohydrates and perhaps 50-80g fat per day. It works much better with my physiology, compared with low-carb-high-fat.

The carbohydrate comes from fruit, rice and potato, and juice. The more I learn the more I am convinced that Ray Peat's overall philosophy is quite sound, at least for some people. I don't agree with everything, particularly the anti-omega 3 stance, and the anti-microbiome stance.

But yeah, it suits me surprisingly well.

Thank you.
May I ask you about protein too, please ?
I understand that this question of amount is entirely personal and depends about one's goal, I ask to get another reference.
For instance, I learned Shawn Baker is at about 4 pounds/2kg per day, he eats fully carnivore though. I'm personally at 800g so far.
What about you ?

 

[Goemon_]

Carnivore (mostly beef, veal and beef tallow) doesn't seem to work well for me on the long run .

I have been adding some carbs mostly from cabbage, cauliflower and lemon.

That is not exactly a pleasant experience. I guess there is some insulin sensitivity or something.

In "Data Companion to Toxic Superfoods" Sally K Norton writes:

For healthy persons, ingesting carbohydrates can be essential for keeping the cellular
metabolism humming, and prolonged ultra-low-carb diets can have drawbacks. If you have
been restricting calories for weight control or maintaining constant ketogenetic low-carb
dieting for any reason, and you find that you are struggling with thyroid problems, stress, leg
cramps, weight issues, feeling cold, or sleep issues, increasing carb intake might help. Re-
introducing moderate amounts of carbs may be necessary to improve sleep quality, physical
performance, and metabolic rate. These key gains from increased carb intake can support
the loss of excess body weight. But in the transition away from constant “keto,” be aware that
regaining metabolic glycemic sensibility can take five to six months or more. To ease the
adaptation process, increase carb intake slowly.
Healthy, moderately active adults should aim for about 60 g to 200 g of carbs daily; large,
athletic persons need more. Genetic, metabolic, and dietary factors influence carbohydrate
needs for any given individual. No matter your level of carb intake, select high-quality carb-
bearing foods (keeping oxalate levels in mind) that are not contaminated with mold, heavy
metals, or herbicides. Fruit juice, starchy vegetables (such as winter squash), properly
prepared (freshly cooked) white rice, and small amounts of simple sugars are all acceptable
carb sources in the context of a healthy diet based on fresh foods and adequate protein
intake.

This may explain that.

 

[iamthatis]

You will notice I started this thread about 7 years ago. Ray peat's work is super popular now and many people are just discovering it. Well, I have dabbled and played around with his ideas on-and-off since before starting this thread.

I personally feel much better eating higher carb and lower fat.

I usually consume anywhere from 150-300grams carbohydrates and perhaps 50-80g fat per day. It works much better with my physiology, compared with low-carb-high-fat.

The carbohydrate comes from fruit, rice and potato, and juice. The more I learn the more I am convinced that Ray Peat's overall philosophy is quite sound, at least for some people. I don't agree with everything, particularly the anti-omega 3 stance, and the anti-microbiome stance.

But yeah, it suits me surprisingly well.

So are you eating meat?

 

[anartist]

sources of Ray Peat info besides his website
Georgi Dinkov To Extract Knowledge from Matter – Perceive, Think, Act
Ray Peat Forum https://lowtoxinforum.com/

 

[Keyhole]

So are you eating meat?

Yeah, a lot of meat