Sailing the storms of uncertainty

Beau

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I will ask that if you are going to post a one-liner directed at just one person, send it to them privately. This way you save the time of the other forum readers.
 

Renaissance

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Sorry for the delay; my computer access on the weekends is pretty limited.

j0da said:
Shane said:
What happens if you're wrong about something on the list?
Wrong in what way? Being wrong about the contents of the list, it's possible incompletness? Or being wrong in one's estimation of a school/way regarding any of those points? Or maybe being wrong in some other way? Please, specify your question, Shane.
Although there's been some discussion in how you're not intent on freezing your list to the original items, I think there are still some things that may be important to consider. When I posted the above question it was simplified from of a bunch of thoughts I had on the subject - I think I simplified too much. Most of what I wondered was if a list could be a useful means of determining a fit between you and a school since both are likely to change. I think even the characteristics of a school may contain varying degrees of and even opposing characteristics depending on where the student is at on the learning curve. For example, if we take 'clarity of information' from your list - all information cannot be immediately clear to all students, certain things may have to be learned and experienced first before the information is clear. You expressed this concept of changing variables later on in this thread (copied below), but I just wanted to clarify what I was thinking.

j0da said:
As a quick answer I may say that being wrong about something one day doesn't exclude being right about it in the future provided new experience and knowledge is gained.
Since you are saying the above, it's interesting to me that you still feel a list is necessary - and that it provides you with a sense of security as you say below.

j0da said:
Like Ryan wrote, one can spend a lifetime knocking doors and that was a danger I perceived very clearly. In desperate attempt I've assembled this list of mine to narrow down the number of possible areas of interest. It may be not perfect, even highly incomplete, but it's application combined with knowledge of cosmic cointelpro tactics brought me unbelivable relief and for the first time I finally feel some ground beneath my feet.
Writing a list to identify a school reminded me of the list writing to identify OP's. I think it's possible, even likely, that this can be a reaction of fear from the predator's mind from seeing the terror of the situation. I think the lists, in these cases, may provide some comfort in thinking that we have some inventory of the situation. I think that not only can this reinforce linear thinking but also can lead us astray in thinking we 'have' something when we may not. It also avoids the context. I've experienced the predator's mind going wild after seeing some painful truth, trying to rationalize and comfort. There's an extra energy created within when seeing genuine terror and it seems the predator goes in overdrive so as to capture that energy instead of us using it to see truth. I don't know that this is definitely occurring in this situation, but I thought I'd share my thoughts.

I think a potentially helpful area to investigate is 'what is the intent (and I think it may be important to consider the intent of the predator's mind) of the list'? From what you wrote, at least part seemed for a way to feel secure. I'm not sure how familiar you are with 4th way terminology, but I think there's a good chance of this being what Gurdjieff described as self calming. It lulls the conscience back to sleep in a 'things are fine' lullaby - and it again steals the energy for work.

Much of the list also seemed like one where the flow of work was mainly from the school to you, which seems backwards and limiting when seeking an open system. I think an open school is one that produces work from the student for the school, thereby helping the individual and group - and creates an amplification of learning. I think this is also why personal characteristics are important for a school - and would seem to be a large aspect of what defines a school. Most schools set up in the ordinary world seem to 'teach' from the school to the student - which also reminds me of the quote - "beware of someone who wants to teach you something"


Here's what you wrote in regards to the list for ease of reference:
j0da said:
This set comprises of: a clarity of provided information, coherency of data, high signal-to-noise ratio, availability, affordability, fruitfulness, quality and quantity of information explaining crucial global events of normal/paranormal character and finally certain frequency which resonates with my intuition. Failure to meet ANY of mentioned requirements would result in exclusion from a pool of considered areas of involvement.
Again, I'm not certain if any/some/all of the above is true regarding this situation, but I thought I'd share it.


I am also interested in hearing any more of what you'd like to share about your Scientology experience.
 

Ruth

The Living Force
j0da said:
Tonight I couldn't sleep as I had intense pain in the back of my neck and one thought was occupying my mind constantly: "This isn't a joke, or a kid's play anymore, joda. All of this isn't a damn joke at all".
Seems like you've just discovered your 'up to your eyeballs' in the *#!#$%! A pretty shocking place to be, but really, really cathartic. It will heighten your sense of danger and provide a lot of motivation to 'rise above'... This is also the place where a person is most vunerable, as well as being a cross-roads of sorts.

I hope you have the strength to take the right path for yourself.

... and avoid the trip wires put in your way deliberately....

Good luck with that. Its only your future at stake - as long as you know that!
 

Cyre2067

The Living Force
Go joda! You remind me of, well me. We seem to have the same deal with learning simple lessons then getting presented with more complex ones.

I've been doing the same thing, spent ~ $200 on books in the last two months. But i've found the most important concepts i've acquired from "the work" so far are don Juan's Internal Silence, and G's Self-remembering. They're nearly identical but subtly different. I've been practicing them back and forth in tandem and the matrix responds in turn by bombarding me with other stimuli. I also enjoy recapitulating, which is don Juan's bit where you write out a list, present to past, of everyone you've met, and then everything you can recall about those people. I've found these concepts to be the most practical thus far.

I must admit scientology scares the bejesus outta me. I'd def like to hear more about your experiences as they seem to be providing a subtle form of chemical addiction, with your own brain chemicals at that! I mean, when you combine the "feel good" high of enlightenment and with the "you pay for it" it seems that same as buying a bag of illegal narcotic. Have you seen the scientology south park episode? Where tom cruise refused to come out of stan's closet? It's a riot.

Thanks for the update, i enjoy hearing about your experiences as they tend mirror my own, in a funky funhouse mirror sort of way.
 

j0da

Jedi Council Member
I’ve been putting my thoughts together and it took some time, but finally here I am to answer your questions and share some thoughts.

Shane said:
Most of what I wondered was if a list could be a useful means of determining a fit between you and a school since both are likely to change.
My main goal in putting the list together was achieving at least some order in my search for truth. In part I used it to determine a fit between myself and a school – but since I’ve read your replies I understood that in this case this list is to bigger or lesser degree incomplete or even improper. On the other hand it helped me to decide which books or materials I need to read now. I have a terrible tendency to dive into matarials which I barely understand, which maybe are of some value, but I’m unable to extract it due to my inexperience or lack of knowledge. I guess it’s the “stangeness” factor that pulled me into such writtings or high level of abstraction. Very often also high count of “mysterious” terms or unknown words acted on me like a charm – “ouch, boy, it’s so complicated – it MUST be something there”.
Such way of thinking doesn’t seem rational for me now, but nevertheless, it was usually my standard mode of operation. Why would I act in such manner – I don’t know – maybe it’s a program which I’ve been running for a long time now. Not very pleasant idea :O

Shane said:
I think even the characteristics of a school may contain varying degrees of and even opposing characteristics depending on where the student is at on the learning curve. For example, if we take 'clarity of information' from your list - all information cannot be immediately clear to all students, certain things may have to be learned and experienced first before the information is clear. You expressed this concept of changing variables later on in this thread (copied below), but I just wanted to clarify what I was thinking.
Exactly, all information cannot be immediately clear, but there is usually some “entry point” in any body of knowledge/school and if I can’t understand what is contained within the entry level then there is no point in diving into it. But, again, I was very often jumping to the end of the book stand, taking some fat tome and enjoying my complete cluelessness dressed as “studying serious stuff”.

Shane said:
j0da said:
As a quick answer I may say that being wrong about something one day doesn't exclude being right about it in the future provided new experience and knowledge is gained.
Since you are saying the above, it's interesting to me that you still feel a list is necessary - and that it provides you with a sense of security as you say below.

j0da said:
Like Ryan wrote, one can spend a lifetime knocking doors and that was a danger I perceived very clearly. In desperate attempt I've assembled this list of mine to narrow down the number of possible areas of interest. It may be not perfect, even highly incomplete, but it's application combined with knowledge of cosmic cointelpro tactics brought me unbelivable relief and for the first time I finally feel some ground beneath my feet.
Writing a list to identify a school reminded me of the list writing to identify OP's. I think it's possible, even likely, that this can be a reaction of fear from the predator's mind from seeing the terror of the situation. I think the lists, in these cases, may provide some comfort in thinking that we have some inventory of the situation. I think that not only can this reinforce linear thinking but also can lead us astray in thinking we 'have' something when we may not. It also avoids the context. I've experienced the predator's mind going wild after seeing some painful truth, trying to rationalize and comfort. There's an extra energy created within when seeing genuine terror and it seems the predator goes in overdrive so as to capture that energy instead of us using it to see truth. I don't know that this is definitely occurring in this situation, but I thought I'd share my thoughts.
For me it brought a state of lessened confusion. When this unfortunate “list” served it’s function (for me understanding that first thing to do is finishing reading “Adventure Series” and “Secret History of the World”) it can be discarded. Did it bring comfort? Yes, I just know how to divide my time and on what should I concentrate my effort – it feels much better than sitting on the fence, between scientology books, African Ifa materials, numerology, and what not, and finally Cass materials, Laura’s books and those of Gurdjieff, Ouspiensky and Mouravieff.

But, there is something I must confess. In part I wrote my first post in this thread just to share some of my ideas, but there was also not so conscious goal of “writing something sounding wise or valuable”. Something like “Come on, J0da, sit at the keybord and strike those buttons till you produce something sounding reasonable and showing those guys that you are indeed Jedi”. Expressing pretended knowingness was my defaut mode of self-rewarding. Heck, there is even more to it..and it is a paradox for me. It seems that another part of me wanted to finally go under the fire of your discernment, fellow forum members. I’ve been writing “safe” posts long enough that I grew tired of my ‘secure’ behaviour. Yes, I am a mess, and presenting this fact to you as well as reading your reactions produces all sorts of reactions, mostly I feel uneasy. But since it is how it works – what a hell. I’ve been walking around thinking I’m someone much better than others long enough and when I finally saw that my opinion about myself grossly contradicts the facts I knew I must abandon my old ways eventually.

Shane said:
I think a potentially helpful area to investigate is 'what is the intent (and I think it may be important to consider the intent of the predator's mind) of the list'? From what you wrote, at least part seemed for a way to feel secure. I'm not sure how familiar you are with 4th way terminology, but I think there's a good chance of this being what Gurdjieff described as self calming. It lulls the conscience back to sleep in a 'things are fine' lullaby - and it again steals the energy for work.
I looked into the glossary and I think you are right, Shane, in part the list served as self-calming tool. But since I’m not familiar with the concept of working with the energy of negative emotions, I wouldn’t know how to benefit from the overwhelming feeling of confusion and helplessness. I had to DO SOMETHING and I acted according to my best knowledge on how to propell myself from being stuck in a ridge of conflicting goals.

Shane said:
Much of the list also seemed like one where the flow of work was mainly from the school to you, which seems backwards and limiting when seeking an open system. I think an open school is one that produces work from the student for the school, thereby helping the individual and group - and creates an amplification of learning. I think this is also why personal characteristics are important for a school - and would seem to be a large aspect of what defines a school. Most schools set up in the ordinary world seem to 'teach' from the school to the student - which also reminds me of the quote - "beware of someone who wants to teach you something".

Here's what you wrote in regards to the list for ease of reference:

j0da said:
This set comprises of: a clarity of provided information, coherency of data, high signal-to-noise ratio, availability, affordability, fruitfulness, quality and quantity of information explaining crucial global events of normal/paranormal character and finally certain frequency which resonates with my intuition. Failure to meet ANY of mentioned requirements would result in exclusion from a pool of considered areas of involvement.
Again, I'm not certain if any/some/all of the above is true regarding this situation, but I thought I'd share it.
Thanks for pointing this out, Shane – this special characteristics of open system is a new concept for me. This immediately brings a question – do I or will I have characteristics which would be of value to the school? To ask myself such questions also brings forth the feeling of inadequacy, like something is screaming inside “What!? Me? Not worthy? Improper? Undesirable? How dare you even think such question?!” I’m slowly learning the fact that such eventuality exists and contemplating it removes me far from the “comfort zone”.

Regarding Scientology - I’ve become aware of certain factors which by their nature prevent me from futher elaborations, at least for the time being. This in itself says a lot, doesn't it?

As a side note - the meeting I've been writting about was ok - nothing scary or suspicious. I had a funny thought regarding this...is the preparedness/awareness of potential danger able to influence the course of events - in the sense of bringing "another set of potentialities" into existence, before we have an occasion to act according to awareness/inner warning? Such possibility would imply that not only future changes but past and present change as well in a moment of particular decision and it seems as completely outlandish idea, but I thought I would express it anyway.
 

Renaissance

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j0da said:
Exactly, all information cannot be immediately clear, but there is usually some "entry point" in any body of knowledge/school and if I can't understand what is contained within the entry level then there is no point in diving into it. But, again, I was very often jumping to the end of the book stand, taking some fat tome and enjoying my complete cluelessness dressed as "studying serious stuff".
Hi J0da,

I think this is a useful point, one that took me sometime to figure out. There is particular difficulty if one tries to find the 'enty point' to an esoteric school. Mouravieff describes how we must first go pass through the exoteric and then mesoteric levels in order to reach the esoteric. Essentially, I think an 'entry point' into a school that may lead to esoteric study deals with understanding the basics of knowledge. It seems for greater esoteric understanding there first is a requirement to have a certain mastery of ordinary knowledge and ordinary life. I've also scattered myself and pretended to have 'great knowledge' when in fact it's largely superficial. This kind of vanity had it's hold on me for quite a while; it spread my attention quite thin, and I think more importantly it perverted any kind of sincerity toward learning truth. I think to be sincere takes serious effort in taking down all those barriors that prevent learning and serving others.

j0da said:
For me it brought a state of lessened confusion. When this unfortunate "list" served it's function (for me understanding that first thing to do is finishing reading "Adventure Series" and "Secret History of the World") it can be discarded. Did it bring comfort? Yes, I just know how to divide my time and on what should I concentrate my effort - it feels much better than sitting on the fence, between scientology books, African Ifa materials, numerology, and what not, and finally Cass materials, Laura's books and those of Gurdjieff, Ouspiensky and Mouravieff.
I think the above indicates goal setting and descerning where one is at and what one needs to do. This seems to relate to the C's statement of what is important is 'Who you are and what you see'.

j0da said:
But, there is something I must confess. In part I wrote my first post in this thread just to share some of my ideas, but there was also not so conscious goal of "writing something sounding wise or valuable". Something like "Come on, J0da, sit at the keybord and strike those buttons till you produce something sounding reasonable and showing those guys that you are indeed Jedi". Expressing pretended knowingness was my defaut mode of self-rewarding. Heck, there is even more to it..and it is a paradox for me. It seems that another part of me wanted to finally go under the fire of your discernment, fellow forum members. I've been writing "safe" posts long enough that I grew tired of my 'secure' behaviour. Yes, I am a mess, and presenting this fact to you as well as reading your reactions produces all sorts of reactions, mostly I feel uneasy. But since it is how it works - what a hell. I've been walking around thinking I'm someone much better than others long enough and when I finally saw that my opinion about myself grossly contradicts the facts I knew I must abandon my old ways eventually.
I think what you describe above is DOING the Work. Allowing yourself to be as you are, and willing to face the ponergenic programing that runs within.

j0da said:
]I looked into the glossary and I think you are right, Shane, in part the list served as self-calming tool. But since I'm not familiar with the concept of working with the energy of negative emotions, I wouldn't know how to benefit from the overwhelming feeling of confusion and helplessness. I had to DO SOMETHING and I acted according to my best knowledge on how to propell myself from being stuck in a ridge of conflicting goals.
I questioned myself for a while before I sent you my reply. Largely, because from past experience I have been off in what I thought I saw, and I think have put some though unneccessary and potentially harmful situations. I think by trying to be sincere in knowing that we don't know all that much can help a great deal. I think what you did was entirely appropriote. In this open network hopefully we can all learn from eachother in creating a less subjective lens to see reality as it is. It's quite useful as a feedback loop!

j0da said:
This immediately brings a question - do I or will I have characteristics which would be of value to the school? To ask myself such questions also brings forth the feeling of inadequacy, like something is screaming inside "What!? Me? Not worthy? Improper? Undesirable? How dare you even think such question?!" I'm slowly learning the fact that such eventuality exists and contemplating it removes me far from the "comfort zone".
Perhaps it would be useful to read what Laura wrote about the Names of God regarding this (in the Wave and in TSHOTW). It may be a useful approach to see that attributes are utilized rather than 'own's own' - I gotta run - getting kicked out of the lab.
 
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