Self Control and STS ?

[agni]

Is it too STS to control your thoughts, emotions, feelings and behavior ? What do you guys think ?

For an example. If I crave to do something... Which I think might be wrong... Would it be too STS to "force" yourself into not doing it while you still desire it ?

There is something I do not quite feel comfortable with... As I believe that everything happens for a reason and for the best, no matter what is happening to me and others since it's all part of a lesson... Do I really have a "right" to be upset about someone pain ? Aka being upset about what lessons Creator put me and others through ? The thought of people pain that it is for their best sort of silences my emotions and feelings. I am starting not to feel so much internal pain for others as I used to... I don't know if it's right or wrong...(do I even need to dived in what is right or wrong?) does it make me inhumane ? I might not feel as much for the pain for other, but I do have a compassion and a hope of them having more strength and understanding going through lessons ?

Isn't it me growing more STS ?

 

[anart]

For an example. If I crave to do something... Which I think might be wrong... Would it be too STS to "force" yourself into not doing it while you still desire it ?

I'm a bit unclear on what you're asking, but it might help to consider that 'desire' is STS - as is 'craving' - not that we don't all desire and crave, because this is an STS world and we are here because we 'fit' in some way.

I have no way of knowing if you are 'growing more STS' - but perhaps you are simply learning that not all is as it seems and that all there is is lessons. There seems to be a difference between building an understanding that all there is is lessons, and growing cold and unfeeling about the suffering of others. I suppose that you are the only one who is able to ultimately determine what is going on in your own mind. While I cannot imagine reaching a point where I do not feel the pain of others, I do understand the 'calmness' that a certain perspective on suffering can bring - it's rather difficult to clearly describe at the moment, however.

 

[agni]

Thank you anart.

Let me give another example. If I feel jealous for a girl. I know that this is wrong, since everyone have own choice and I have no right to feel that way.. I know that person actions should be respected and not judged, or especially controlled... But I for some reason I still have the feeling of being jealous.. Would it be "wrong/STS" to try force myself to get rid of the feeling since I know that this is completely wrong ?

As far as second part "calmness" is better term. (my English sucks, sorry.. I find it hard to pick right wording sometimes). I feel pain of others, it touches me to the toes... but at the same time I am starting to respond to it less and less emotionally, while calm/silent (not cold) compassion and understanding is growing. It's very hard to describe the feeling.

 

[bw]

Hey Agni...
what if you put that "calmness" towards your own pain (not just that of others).. maybe if you see that your own pain might be for the best, it will calm your emotions and you'll be able to figure out the cause of the jealous feeling...

Brandon

 

[agni]

Oh, I completely agree. I do not really care much for my own pain I do look at it calmly also. As a matter of fact I am thankful and to that ! If not for "pain" I would never learn (or would not learn that fast) !
I do wish the person to be happy, with me or without me. At least I want to believe that. I would not call being jealous - a pain. It's rather "greedy" snakish mind that puts "possessive" thoughts into my head, triggering "negative vibrations" that make me feel jealous at times. And it kills me that I feel that way... Because I know I am not suppose to ! And this is not right !

Question is... Would it be wrong to attempt to silence jealousy through thee mind.. Since I understand that this is nothing more then a result of my own STS nature of possessing and controlling, deep within I want person to be happy no matter what! But even I know that, it does not stop me from experience this from time to time... Just plainly weird.. I guess this is lack of my complete understanding of what I tend to believe, otherwise it would not be in my head and I won't feel that way.

I am not concerned with pain of jealousy, I am more concerned with why do I feel that way and I want to put an end to it ! I do understand that this is dead wrong !

 

[bw]

Hmm.. maybe, look at it this way: If we are currently STS beings, and basically everything we do is STS... and your choices are between "attempting to silence jealousy through the mind" and acting on that jealousy (if that's what you mean? I don't know the specifics of your situation)... what choice would you make? :)

Which one is "less STS" (if such a concept even makes sense)..or..more heading towards STO?

And, about silencing jealousy... you recognise that it's a certain part of your mind causing it (the predator's mind).. keep observing it and recognising that it's the predator's mind. It will be very hard to get rid of the feeling...but if you keep seeing it for what it is, it will become easier, I think.

Have you read anything about the "predator's mind"? (as written about by Carlos Castaneda). Have a search for that term on here and on cassiopaea.org, there's some stuff about it...

Brandon

 

[agni]

Thanks bw. That's the whole dilemma I have  I do not like using an excuse that I am STS based being... I almost feel that's just an excuse to myself of sort. The thing is... If I have learned the lesson about jealousy properly I do not think that it would be bothering me anymore...but it does... If I attempt to silence the feeling, in my terms it's basically the running from it and covering it with mind enforced illusion that it does not bother me, which I think can be viewed as STS approach, because in "background" it kinda does. Same as lying to myself...
Moreover, me not liking it and thinking about fighting it points out more to my selfish STS behavior. The only reasonable action needs to be done by me to resolve this is to allow this to "fade" naturally, when I reach proper understanding. I thought I had understanding of it.. but I guess not completely...whether I like it or not... it's there for a reason 
I just realized that self-inflicted silencing of it through the mind is basically one more STS move on my part. I think I should let it flow...

It's just sometimes I get so sick of myself and my ways that I feel like throwing up !

Anyway.. thank you all for your part !

P.S. And yes...I will be reading "Predator's mind"  thanks for the tip.

 

[anart]

The only reasonable action needs to be done by me to resolve this is to allow this to "fade" naturally, when I reach proper understanding. I thought I had understanding of it.. but I guess not completely...whether I like it or not... it's there for a reason

After reading about the predator's mind you might come to the realization that it will take a lot of effort on your part - Work on your part - to remove this jealousy 'program' - 'thinking with a hammer' will come in much more handy than 'allowing it to fade once you've reached the proper understanding'. It turns out that, often, thinking with a hammer IS reaching the proper understanding - the process of learning to be brutal with yourself and your own programs is what will bring about this 'proper understanding' - or so it has been in my experience thus far.

 

[agni]

Thank You all for your help !

 

[ljvh769]

Hello,
I am new to forum interaction. It is so great to have a place where I can talk about all of this. It is excruciating to keep things to myself about the knowledge that is hidden from us. I continue to do inventory and recapitulation my past. I feel so much remorse and pain for the STS behavior and being that is me. The pain comes from the realization and awareness that my behavior was "food for the moon". MY work is to transform this behavior. Everyday, I look back on my interactions with people and life and judge the intentions either STS or STO. I am STS and because I am aware of the other way to be, I strive to change it. It is very difficult and each day is an opportunity for a lesson. Today I feel bad about my behavior. Shame (feeling bad about what you did or said) is a good thing, if you use it to aid your transformation for potential to be STO. It is not good when you hurt yourself or others because of it. I fear abandonment and loneliness and it can paralyze me. This is really hard but there is no turning back. I feel that suffering is our common bond and it needs to be felt together. I also feel we all need to "highlight" the momments when we have empathy for others and in those momments we do not fear the future. The later will keep us sane and concious of our mission.

 

[Gaby]

Hello,
I am new to forum interaction. It is so great to have a place where I can talk about all of this.

Hello,

Negative emotions are useful to the process of self-knowledge, specially if there is response-ability. If certain feelings are "paralyzing" you, then probably the "predator mind" is having the best of you. Also, it is important to arrive to the root of the programs, therefore the importance of recapitulation. So, welcome aboard, you're not alone!

You mentioned "shame", which reminded me the next example... The following are quotes of the book Why is it always about you by Sandra Hotchkiss. We are raised in a narcissistic STS society, and if we strive to be STO then the following could be useful to any of us:

The narcissistic engages us via our own narcissistic vulnerabilities. These early experiences leave us with unrealistic expectations of ourselves and a need for repair of the shame we felt when we couldn't measure up to theirs. [...]

By attaching ourselves to these individuals we get immediate gratification of our need to feel special by basking in their glow, and when we go out of our way to please them in order to hold their interest, we signal them that we can be used to meet their needs. The door is then open to the exploitation and shame-dumping that is characteristic of the way they operate. The most treacherous ones will keep us bound to them by pumping us up between the put-downs and the manipulations.

The Narcissistic has a prism that refracts and distorts incoming messages to avoid the intolerable feeling of shame. Narcissists constantly dump -or project- unwanted parts of themselves onto other people. They begin to behave as if others possess these unwanted pieces of themselves and they may even succeed in getting others to feel as if they actually have those traits or feelings. This is an unconscious process for both the dumper and the dumpee, but what if means is that you end up being treated like the dirt they've brushed off their own psyches, or feeling the humiliation, the anger, the vulnerability, and the worthlessness that they cannot tolerate themselves. They lob it onto you, you suck it in, and for an icky while, it's yours. If you are young, dependent, or otherwise vulnerable, their "disowned" parts may stick around and become part of your own self-image.

Anyway, just one of many examples.

 

[foofighter]

Negative emotions are useful to the process of self-knowledge, specially if there is response-ability. If certain feelings are "paralyzing" you, then probably the "predator mind" is having the best of you. Also, it is important to arrive to the root of the programs, therefore the importance of recapitulation. So, welcome aboard, you're not alone!

You can say that again! I am personally in such a paralysis right now, and the frustrating part is that I know why. It is exactly this sense of unrealistic expectations and shame, as a narcissistic response, that is the cause.

The details: next week I am going to be doing a presentation at a big conference on a topic I love and for people that are my peers. I have done it so many times that I know exactly already how it will play out. First, I have had this sense of paralysis for six months or so from the date I accepted the invitation to the conference, since I have had to prepare the presentation prior to a certain date. It is customary that the presenter hands in the slides a month before the presentation so that it can be printed in advance. While doing this, since I love what I do, and since I have this narcissistic vulnerability, I have great and unrealistic expectations of myself, and I am essentially "competing" with my own view of prior presentations I have done, which always end up well and appreciated. Therefore I expect myself to not only do well, but to do excellently this time as well. So in this case I am not even projecting things onto others, but rather myself in the past!

End result? I can't do anything until the very last minute, because if I do it may not be as good as I know it *could* be, and the end result of that is a stream of negative feelings and sense of worthlessness and frustration of not being able to get out of this thought loop. And now, since I understand how narcissism works and where it comes from, it is even sillier since I am *still* unable to break this spell. It sucks. How can I compete with myself? From past experience I know that once I get up on stage all of this disappears, and it becomes just me and the people listening, and we all have a great time for an hour or so. So in spite of this self-doubt I know it will work out. And yet... *sigh*... the predator mind is indeed having the best of me.

Not sure if there's any point to what I'm saying, other than reiterating navigante's words, you are not alone Suffering is what makes us similar, and striving beyond it, for ourselves and otherselves, is what makes life worth living.

 

[atreides]

Thank you anart.

Let me give another example. If I feel jealous for a girl. I know that this is wrong, since everyone have own choice and I have no right to feel that way.. I know that person actions should be respected and not judged, or especially controlled... But I for some reason I still have the feeling of being jealous.. Would it be "wrong/STS" to try force myself to get rid of the feeling since I know that this is completely wrong ?

As far as second part "calmness" is better term. (my English sucks, sorry.. I find it hard to pick right wording sometimes). I feel pain of others, it touches me to the toes... but at the same time I am starting to respond to it less and less emotionally, while calm/silent (not cold) compassion and understanding is growing. It's very hard to describe the feeling.

Jealousy is the shadow of greed :)

Greed is the ultimate STS sin, out of the 7 that is. Though no sin is polarized either way. They are, but the Sin of choice for STS seems to be Greed. Money, Power, Destruction ya know, the golden oldies.

As for whether or not desire is STS I am not so sure, desire by a pure definition of want would be necessary for existance. I.E. nothing would exist if the universe didn't desire existance, none of us would be alive if we did not desire existance, L would never have contacted the Cs unless she desired answers, the Cs would never have responded unless they Desired to help those who desire help etc. Without desire, the universe would kinda fall apart, somewhat. Not only that, but the purpose of existance would fallout. So, I don't think that desire is STS, however to desire something that only gratifies yourself at the expense of another would be STS, so context is key I suppose.

 

[Ruth]

Hello,
I fear abandonment and loneliness and it can paralyze me.

It also stops a person from becoming STO. This is because, (I believe) these two things are such prominent things in our STS existence. When ever we start to get some sort of 'idea' about what the heck is STO? Then, whamo, there's 'abandonment and loneliness' trying to 'encourage' us back onto the STS path...

This is really hard but there is no turning back. I feel that suffering is our common bond and it needs to be felt together. I also feel we all need to "highlight" the momments when we have empathy for others and in those momments we do not fear the future. The later will keep us sane and concious of our mission.

What is 'our mission'? I must admit to having only fleeting ideas or insights into what (if anything) my 'mission' is. I suppose it will all 'come out in the wash' at some stage.

I tend to think that Frank Herbert 'had something' when he came up with the saying "Fear is the mind killer" which I think he atributed to the Bene Gesserit Order. It certainly is a hinderance in this life (and a controller?). It certainly must have had some significance to the Bene Gesserit.

 

[Gaby]

Jealousy is the shadow of greed :)

"Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."-Counsel with Yoda;)