Self-Improvement & The Work

Argonaut

Jedi Master
My day-to-day life is currently very empty. I mainly spend my leisure time watching movies or playing the online game World of Warcraft. I do make time to read books, visit sott.net, and so on, but the majority of my life is spent with electronic entertainment of some sort. I'm dissatisfied with this lifestyle, but the majority of my I's like it just fine and feel no drive to change it. According to Gurdjieff, everything simply happens. Nobody can truly do anything. And as a prerequisite to starting the Work, we must focus on self-observation, self-remembering, etc, remaining objective without judging or analyzing, until we eventually reach the point where we CAN start to "do"... and only THEN can we Work.

So with this in mind, should we strive towards any kind of self-improvement at all? Wouldn't any attempt to improve one's self be mechanical and unconscious? And while we're still asleep, an improved self would be just as artificial as an "unimproved" self, wouldn't it? Maybe more artificial in some cases. It seems like it would be best to just observe ourselves "as is" without any attempt to make changes in our daily habits. At least until we can actually "do" something. I'd greatly appreciate some input on this, because I feel trapped by my daily habits, yet also feel that struggling against them may a pointless, wasted effort. Or even detrimental. Thanks. :)
 
Alderpax said:
My day-to-day life is currently very empty. I mainly spend my leisure time watching movies or playing the online game World of Warcraft. I do make time to read books, visit sott.net, and so on, but the majority of my life is spent with electronic entertainment of some sort. I'm dissatisfied with this lifestyle, but the majority of my I's like it just fine and feel no drive to change it.

You won't change it until you have had enough of it. If you cannot see the horror of the situation, then you cannot see the horror of the situation.

ap said:
According to Gurdjieff, everything simply happens. Nobody can truly do anything. And as a prerequisite to starting the Work, we must focus on self-observation, self-remembering, etc, remaining objective without judging or analyzing, until we eventually reach the point where we CAN start to "do"... and only THEN can we Work.

Nope. It sounds like you're making excuses because you want to spend your time playing WoW - go play WoW - it's your life to waste as you please. Once you have had enough of being sleeping food, you will stop playing WoW and do what is necessary to awaken. Gurdjieff was speaking of sleeping humanity. There is another humanity, but it has to be within you to do - one has to have reached a bankruptcy with 'normal life' - with being nothing but food. Without the 'battle between yes and no', there is no awakening.

ap said:
So with this in mind, should we strive towards any kind of self-improvement at all?

First of all what you have 'in mind' is inaccurate. Secondly, you appear to be trying to convince yourself that there is no point in trying - fine - don't try. It is your life to waste as you please. One has either had enough of being sleeping food or not - there is no in between.


ap said:
Wouldn't any attempt to improve one's self be mechanical and unconscious?

Nope, though the devil is in the details.

ap said:
And while we're still asleep, an improved self would be just as artificial as an "unimproved" self, wouldn't it? Maybe more artificial in some cases.

You are selecting and substituting data to fit a hypothesis that you want to be true.

ap said:
It seems like it would be best to just observe ourselves "as is" without any attempt to make changes in our daily habits.

Why would this be best - assuming one can even observe themselves in the first place?

ap said:
At least until we can actually "do" something. I'd greatly appreciate some input on this, because I feel trapped by my daily habits, yet also feel that struggling against them may a pointless, wasted effort. Or even detrimental. Thanks. :)

If you are sincere, then playing less WoW and reading more might be a first step - IF you are sincere. I do not know if you are sincere, since it seems as if you are basically whining that you 'feel bad' about wasting your life so now you want a reason to not 'feel bad' about it - some sort of reassurance that it is a waste (or even detrimental - the only way it would be detrimental to struggle against the most entropic parts of oneself is if one is aligned with entropy) - which is nothing but you lying to yourself and trying to lie to this forum. Without the 'battle between yes and no', there is no heat to fuse a singular I.

In short, you are looking for reasons to sleep and be food - you don't need reasons, it's your choice. The Universe will proceed in its path no matter which face you choose to align with - entropy or creativity. From what you've written here, you're aligned with entropy and fighting to keep it that way - so - go do it - it's your life. Just don't try to convince this forum of things that are not objectively true.
 
Alderpax said:
According to Gurdjieff, everything simply happens. Nobody can truly do anything.
This is hyperbole designed to shock you into actually doing something.

Even if we have many i's, there is still something which can impartially observe them. The process of the work is to strengthen this 'inner self' by doing small things and building up to bigger things.

The important things people imagine they can do, e.g. consciously directing their own lives, are clearly impossible without work on the self.

And as a prerequisite to starting the Work, we must focus on self-observation, self-remembering, etc, remaining objective without judging or analyzing, until we eventually reach the point where we CAN start to "do"... and only THEN can we Work.

All of the above activities are the work.
 
Alderpax said:
I'm dissatisfied with this lifestyle, but the majority of my I's like it just fine and feel no drive to change it.

Gurdjieff goes into this "dissatisfaction" during a meeting as described by Ouspensky in the book 'In Search Of The Miraculous.'

Excerpt from In Search Of The Miraculous by P.D. Ouspensky p241-242:

The next meeting after this was very interesting. Everyone was full of impressions of talks with friends; everyone had a great many questions; everyone was somewhat discouraged and disappointed.

It proved that friends and acquaintances asked very shrewd questions to which most of our people had no answers. They asked for instance what we had got from the work and openly expressed doubts as to our "remembering ourselves." On the other hand others had themselves no doubt whatever that they "remembered themselves." Others found the "ray of creation" and the "seven cosmoses" ridiculous and useless; ... others asked who had seen the centers and how they could be seen; others found absurd the idea that we could not "do." ...

G. laughed when we recounted to him our conversations with our friends.

"This is nothing," he said. "If you were to put together everything that people are able to say about this system, you would not believe in it yourselves. This system has a wonderful property: even a mere contact with it calls forth either the best or the worst in people. You may know a man all your life and think that he is not a bad fellow, that he is even rather intelligent. Try speaking to him about these ideas and you will see at once that he is an utter fool. Another man, on the other hand, might appear to have nothing in him, but speak to him on these subjects and you find that he thinks, and thinks very seriously."

"How can we recognize people who are able to come to the work?" asked on of those present.

"How to recognize them is another question," said G. "To do this it is necessary to a certain extent 'to be.' But before speaking of this we must establish what kind of people are able to come to the work and what kind are not able.

"You must understand that a man should have, first, a certain preparation, certain luggage. He should know what it is possible to know through ordinary channels about the ideas of esotericism, about hidden knowledge, about possibilities of the inner evolution of man, and so on. What I mean is that these ideas ought not to appear to him as something entirely new. Otherwise it is difficult to speak to him. It is useful also if he has at least some scientific or philosophical preparation. If a man has a good knowledge of religion, this can also be useful. But if he is tied to religious forms and has no understanding of their essence, he will find it very difficult. In general, if a man knows but little, has read but little, has thought but little, it is difficult to talk to him. If he has a good essence there is another way for him without any talks at all, but in this case he has to be obedient, he has to give up his will. And he has to come to this also in some way or other. It can be said that there is one general rule for everybody. In order to approach this system seriously, people must be disappointed, first of all in themselves, that is to say, in their powers, and secondly in all the old ways. A man cannot feel what is most valuable in the system unless he is disappointed in what he has been doing, disappointed in what he has been searching for. If he is a scientist he should be disappointed in his science. If he is a religious man he should be disappointed in his religion. If he is a politician he should be disappointed in politics. If he is a philosopher he should be disappointed in philosophy. If he is a theosophist he should be disappointed in theosophy. If he is an occultist he should be disappointed in occultism. And so on. But you must understand what this means. I say for instance that a religious man should be disappointed in religion. This does not mean that he should lose his faith. On the contrary, it means being 'disappointed' in the teaching and the methods only, realizing that the religious teaching he knows is not enough for him, can lead him nowhere. All religious teachings, excepting of course the completely degenerated religions of savages and the invented religions and sects of modern times, consist of two parts, the visible and the hidden. To be disappointed in religion means being disappointed in the visible, and to feel the necessity for finding the hidden and unknown part of religion. To be disappointed in science does not mean losing interest in knowledge. It means being convinced that the usual scientific methods are not only useless but lead to the construction of absurd and self-contradictory theories, and, having become convinced of this, to begin to search for others. To be disappointed in philosophy means being convinced that ordinary philosophy is merely--as it is said in the Russian proverb--pouring from one empty vessel into another, and that people do not even know what philosophy means although true philosophy also can and should exist. To be disappointed in occultism does not mean losing faith in the miraculous, it is merely being convinced that ordinary, accessible, and even advertised occultism, under whatever name it may pass, is simply charlatanism and self-deception and that, although somewhere something does exist, everything that man knows or is able to learn in the ordinary way is not what he needs.

"So that, no matter what he used to do before, no matter what used to interest him, if a man has arrived at this state of disappointment in ways that are possible and accessible, it is worth while speaking to him about our system and then he may come to the work. But if he continues to think that he is able to find anything on his former way, or that he has not as yet tried all the ways, or that he can, by himself, find anything or do anything, it means that he is not ready. I do not mean that he must throw up everything he used to do before. This is entirely unnecessary. On the contrary, it is often even better if he continues to do what he used to do. But he must realize that it is only a profession, or a habit, or a necessity. In this case it is another matter; he will then be able not to 'identify.' [...]

"[...] In the meantime remember one thing only: A man must be sufficiently disappointed in ordinary ways and he must at the same time think or be able to accept the idea that there may be something--somewhere. If you should speak to such a man, he might discern the flavor of truth in what you say no matter how clumsily you might speak. But if you should speak to a man who is convinced about something else, everything you say will sound absurd to him and he will never even listen to you seriously. It is not worth while wasting time on him. This system is for those who have already sought and have burned themselves. Those who have not sought and who are not seeking do not need it. And those who have not yet burned themselves do not need it either."

"But this is not what people begin with," said one of our company. "They ask: Do we admit the existence of the ether? Or how do we look on evolution? Or why do we not believe in progress? Or why do we not think that people can and should organize life on the basis of justice and the common good? And things of this sort."

"All questions are good," said G., "and you can begin from any question if only it is sincere. You understand that what I mean is that this very question about either or about progress or about the common good could be asked by a man simply in order to say something, or to repeat what someone else has said or what he has read in some book, and on the other hand he could ask it because this is the question with which he aches. If it is an aching question for him you can give him an answer and you can bring him to the system through any question whatever. But it is necessary for the question to be an aching one."
 
kenlee,

Yes, this describes my situation well. But if I must reach a point of utter bankruptcy with my life as anart said, I'm not quite there yet. I must be getting there though, because my daily activites are leaving me with an empty, hollow feeling inside. I won't just sit back and do nothing, waiting for my feelings to get more severe - But it's still good to know that things might be heading in the right direction for me to truly be ready to begin the work.

Kesdjan,

So there's a differene between making small beneficial changes and directing the course of one's life. I never considered that, but what you say about working up from small things to bigger things makes sense.

anart,

Ok... I have no hidden agenda, I wasn't trying to justify my behavior to myself, I wasn't whining, and I am not fighting to stay aligned with entropy. It seems that most of my I's are quite happy with things staying how they are, but those I's aren't writing these posts. The I (or I's) writing here was simply asking questions and seeking help figuring them out. Oh, and thank you for mentioning the battle between yes and no. The "shocks" which can come from this could be a crucial part of the self-observation/self-remembering process, so I can see your point that to literally do NOTHING but observe leads nowhere but further into entropy.

The ISOTM quote kenlee posted contains a statement very similar to what I read that started me wondering about these questions. I'll re-quote that portion so you might get an idea where my head was actually at. Even though one must be disappointed with one's life, Gurdjieff adds:

I do not mean that he must throw up everything he used to do before. This is entirely unnecessary. On the contrary, it is often even better if he continues to do what he used to do. But he must realize that it is only a profession, or a habit, or a necessity. In this case it is another matter; he will then be able not to 'identify.' [...]

I'm not blaming you for any misunderstanding; it happens. Gurdjieff said that people don't really understand each other, and I'm sure poor writing skill contributes to that. If we'd have been having this exchange in person, you wouldn't have come to the same conclusions. Sometimes my writing generates much more noise than it should and the signal gets obscured. My apologies. I definitely need to work on that.

Also, if I did misrepresent Gurdjieff or his ideas about not being able to "do," it was because I was sincerely mistaken, not because I was using Gurdjieff to excuse my laziness. I thought I knew what I was talking about. But it's good to have my bubble burst. Thanks.
 
alderpax said:
I wasn't trying to justify my behavior to myself

Are you sure about that? I think it might be wise to take another look and reconsider that conclusion.
 
Alderpax said:
kenlee,

. It seems that most of my I's are quite happy with things staying how they are, but those I's aren't writing these posts. The I (or I's) writing here was simply asking questions and seeking help figuring them out.
The question is which I's you choose to support consistently( though it is not going to be easy) . It is interesting to see that you mentioned these words twice in this thread "most of my I's are quite happy with things staying how they are". It is good you confessed and asked for help , still By saying it, you are trying to side the entropic I's instead of Real I's. For false self , doing any thing contrary is like suffering and that needs to be conscious suffering. So the Issue is what actions you are willing to do for supporting the Real I , while starving the false I's.
 
Alderpax:

It's important to recognize (as Gurdjieff did) that the first order of business when undertaking the Work is becoming psychologically healthy. Part of the process of working to understand your "machine" is to gain a basic understanding and acquaintance with your own psychological make-up and history, emotional issues, family/relationship patterns, etc. To that end, the following "Big Four" books on human psychology are strongly recommended to those who are serious about beginning the Work. Laura recommends that they be read in the following order:

1) The Myth of Sanity by Martha Stout
2) The Narcissistic Family by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman & Robert M. Pressman
3) Trapped in The Mirror by Elan Goulomb
4) Unholy Hungers by Barbara Hort
 
anart said:
Are you sure about that? I think it might be wise to take another look and reconsider that conclusion

Yes, it's always wise to take a closer look, especially when another person seems so sure that something's amiss. I do feel sure about what I'm saying. When I'm wrapped up in a movie or a game, those I's have little to no interest in anything else, and I do think I'd try and justify my habits at those times. So clearly this tendency exists in me. But when I wrote my post, I felt unhappy about my lifestyle. My feelings actually seemed to be the opposite of wanting to justify it. Maybe on some level I'm lying to myself, and if so I'd like to find out. But the I who's writing feels negatively about my habits, whereas there are other I's who enjoy them. So it doesn't seem to me that the I writing these posts would wish to justify the habits. If it's possible that ALL of my known I's would try to justify my entertainment habits - even the ones who seem to be trying to awaken - that concerns me greatly. It would be like having an internal COINTELPRO agent bent on my destruction, and that agent would technically be ME. That's a scary thought. So what in my words makes you so sure?

seek10 said:
By saying it, you are trying to side the entropic I's instead of Real I's. For false self , doing any thing contrary is like suffering and that needs to be conscious suffering. So the Issue is what actions you are willing to do for supporting the Real I , while starving the false I's.

In this case the only action is to cut the false I's off from their precious entertainment. Am I willing to? Yes. Will I be willing to tomorrow, or even an hour from now? That's the question. It depends on who's driving the machine at the time, it seems like. I thought that a "Real I" needed time and work to develop. I was under the impression that I didn't have one at all yet. Or am I misunderstanding? I thought I knew a lot, but you all are putting cracks in my assurance. Which is a good thing. It leaves me kind of feeling like I need to unlearn all the Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, C's material, etc, that I've (mis?)read and start over fresh somehow. This is part of the beauty of networking, I guess. Things can easily get distorted when working alone, no matter which books one reads.

PepperFritz,

Thank you for the recommendations. I've read Unholy Hungers, but not the rest. I'll buy them online this weekend.
 
Alderpax said:
In this case the only action is to cut the false I's off from their precious entertainment....

The "all or nothing" approach is the best way to sabotage your own efforts. Remember Kesdjan's advice: Start small, build slowly and gradually.

For example, if you usually participate in "electronic entertainment" six hours per night, you might try committing yourself to limiting such participation to, say, four hours per night; or designating one night per week (say, Tuesday) where you do not indulge in such entertainment at all. And then endeavour to practice self-observation during these "no electronic entertainment" periods. What kind of emotions rise to the surface during these brief periods of "self-denial"? In what way does your online game-playing act as an effective "buffer" between you and those emotions? Why are you afraid of those emotions? What happens if you follow those emotions to their natural conclusion? Etc Etc.

In my experience, it is during those moments when we diverge from our "usual" behavioural patterns that we have the opportunity to observe and learn the most about our machine. In a way, when the machine is doing its usual "job", there's not much to observe; as you say, all of the little "I"s are quite content and happy, and don't have much to say. It is when you alter those patterns and introduce a little (with the operative word being "little") intentional stress, or "suffering", that you have an opportunity to find out why the little "I"s do what they do.

Remember: You cannot change or "cure" what you do not understand. Seek to understand your machine a little at a time, but be consistent and committed about it. Persistence is the key, not grand gestures based on wishful thinking.
 
PepperFritz said:
Alderpax said:
In this case the only action is to cut the false I's off from their precious entertainment....

The "all or nothing" approach is the best way to sabotage your own efforts. Remember Kesdjan's advice: Start small, build slowly and gradually.

Ah, of course. I took kesdjan to mean that I should start with small problems, but yes, stepping down slowly makes a lot of sense, too. I know this can be effective for breaking habits; guess I just didn't consider it because this isn't "normal" habit-breaking - it's habit breaking for the Work. I was artificially creating some kind of divider between the two. But breaking a habit is breaking a habit. Interesting how the brain chooses to differentiate sometimes. *forehead slap*

PepperFritz said:
For example, if you usually participate in "electronic entertainment" six hours per night, you might try committing yourself to limiting such participation to, say, four hours per night; or designating one night per week (say, Tuesday) where you do not indulge in such entertainment at all. And then endeavour to practice self-observation during these "no electronic entertainment" periods. What kind of emotions rise to the surface during these brief periods of "self-denial"? In what way does your online game-playing act as an effective "buffer" between you and those emotions? Why are you afraid of those emotions? What happens if you follow those emotions to their natural conclusion? Etc Etc.

During the times I've actually tried this, I've experienced restlessness and boredom and felt seriously deprived. Taking away all that stimulation must send the brain into a kind of withdrawal or something. This only happens when I deliberately give up the entertainment just to give it up. It never happens if I forego it because I feel like doing something else, like reading. I'm guessing because the entertainment-loving I's are dormant at these times. I definitely need to explore further to find out why I fear the emotions, what happens if I follow them, and so on. As for a buffer, I do know that when I'm playing a game or watching something I become identified with it, and I'm pretty much "not there" - my mind is immersed in the story or gameplay. At the time, I feel that the entertainment is "fun," but it's really pure escapism. I'm sure there's more to learn about this aspect too.

PepperFritz said:
In my experience, it is during those moments when we diverge from our "usual" behavioural patterns that we have the opportunity to observe and learn the most about our machine. In a way, when the machine is doing its usual "job", there's not much to observe; as you say, all of the little "I"s are quite content and happy, and don't have much to say. It is when you alter those patterns and introduce a little (with the operative word being "little") intentional stress, or "suffering", that you have an opportunity to find out why the little "I"s do what they do.

Remember: You cannot change or "cure" what you do not understand. Seek to understand your machine a little at a time, but be consistent and committed about it. Persistence is the key, not grand gestures based on wishful thinking.

Thanks for this advice. Small changes and observing a little at a time makes sense.
 
Taking away all that stimulation must send the brain into a kind of withdrawal or something.

I used to play Online games such as Everquest and Wow every second I could, so I know how you feel..
At some point, you just have to delete it from your harddrive, and go join a gym or some other activity that takes you outta the house.

I still miss it sometimes.

Time spent practicing self-observation is much more rewarding though :)
 
Alderpax said:
It would be like having an internal COINTELPRO agent bent on my destruction, and that agent would technically be ME. That's a scary thought.

Pretty much - see part of the horror of the situation? 

a said:
So what in my words makes you so sure?

The way you wrote your first post on this topic and this:

a said:
So with this in mind, should we strive towards any kind of self-improvement at all? Wouldn't any attempt to improve one's self be mechanical and unconscious? And while we're still asleep, an improved self would be just as artificial as an "unimproved" self, wouldn't it? Maybe more artificial in some cases. It seems like it would be best to just observe ourselves "as is" without any attempt to make changes in our daily habits.

If we had answered 'yes' to these questions of yours - if we had agreed with your take on it - the premise you put out as being likely true - then you would have all the assurance you needed to go back to your games and movies - that is why you asked the questions the way you asked them.  It was an exercise in getting tacit 'permission' to do what IT wants to do.

I assume you have read the following threads, but, if not - please do so - in their entirety.  I would also tend to disagree with Pepperfritz's take that one should take 'small steps' in this particular case - and that cutting off all gaming in this case is a bad idea. An addict doesn't recover by doing their drug of choice every once in a while, or only five times a week versus six.

As Helle said,

Helle said:
 At some point, you just have to delete it from your harddrive, and go join a gym or some other activity that takes you outta the house.

That is, if you are sincere about waking up.  fwiw. Here are the threads:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=129.msg392#msg392  - 'video games'

and

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=5553.msg37399#msg37399  - 'Games'
 
Alderpax said:
In this case the only action is to cut the false I's off from their precious entertainment. Am I willing to? Yes. Will I be willing to tomorrow, or even an hour from now? That's the question. It depends on who's driving the machine at the time, it seems like. I thought that a "Real I" needed time and work to develop. I was under the impression that I didn't have one at all yet.

You are already defeated before you begin. If you were sincere about what you were saying then you would just DO it and you would be too busy doing it to even talk about whether you would be willing to do it “ tomorrow, or even an hour from now.”
 
At this time I have only a small piece of practical advice. Try to cut gaming for a month and observe what effect that has on you. And during that time, observe how gaming affects your thinking, your reactions (they DO program you... especially the violent ones), and try to get a glimpse of the fact and ways of how they separate you from what is Real and worth knowing. In the end it may seem like a waste of time to you, and it will be if you don't try to self-observe. Just know that a lot of the time you will go into dissociation and daydream about the game. That is normal. But the point is to see what a CHUNK the game will take out of your life, and affect you even beyond the time you spend playing.

Edit: Darn, I should have just read the entire thread before answering. Pepperfritz said the same thing better. Anyway, I think that cutting gaming will work to show you just how much They Play You. And that worked for me.

My own experience with trying to cut gaming: while I had cut my gaming for some time (no gaming at all for a month), I began to have serious desire to go back. I almost salivated of the thought! Luckily, I had sold my PS2 controller to a friend so I couldn't. It has been now about four months and they occupy my mind no longer. And I was a gamer for years! Anyway, it was important to fill the time I spent gaming with something else. I read a lot of the diet-threads and came up with some life-saving information. Someone here said that "when uncertain: Read" and it helped me. And it needs to be said; I had tried to cut gaming earlier completely and I hadn't succeeded. And the last time I thought of limiting my gaming, it was just that: limiting, but I ended up leaving it for good. It is quite important to realize that you will not succeed with the first try. But with that first try, you can still observe the relation between you and gaming.

At any rate, going by what I've understood from your posts, you are in a quite similar situation that I was a few months back. And in the end, I saw gaming as detrimental. Not positive, not even neutral, just outright negative. But know that there is nothing blameworthy if you keep on gaming. It is your life to do with what you want.
 
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