Self-Improvement & The Work

[Argonaut]

You are already defeated before you begin. If you were sincere about what you were saying then you would just DO it and you would be too busy doing it to even talk about whether you would be willing to do it “ tomorrow, or even an hour from now.”

Kenlee,

Games like WoW have been likened to a drug, as far as their addictive effect on the brain. So I feel like quitting may be quite a process... But as you said, I haven't even been doing anything towards quitting. Up until now I haven't drawn a line or made a decision that I'm going to quit. I've just been playing it and making excuses as to why it's "ok", or why I should keep playing "for now" until I feel "ready" to quit. And I'm sure anyone here knows that "for now" can stretch into infinity if we let it, as we can always find reasons to not be "ready". I agree that I haven't been sincere with myself. I may have other I's who want to continue playing WoW, but that's the point. If nothing in me WANTED to play, quitting wouldn't produce any shocks, any "yes/no" struggle. I get that now. It's not about quitting to better my life right now necessarily; it's about quitting to aid myself in the work. Which renders my original question empty and pointless. I'm glad everyone here has shown me this. So now it's time for me to quit this life-eating habit of mine. I just need to make sure I actually use this to my advantage in the work rather than simply replacing one habit with another, which is something I've done in the past.

At this time I have only a small piece of practical advice. Try to cut gaming for a month and observe what effect that has on you. And during that time, observe how gaming affects your thinking, your reactions (they DO program you... especially the violent ones), and try to get a glimpse of the fact and ways of how they separate you from what is Real and worth knowing. In the end it may seem like a waste of time to you, and it will be if you don't try to self-observe. Just know that a lot of the time you will go into dissociation and daydream about the game. That is normal. But the point is to see what a CHUNK the game will take out of your life, and affect you even beyond the time you spend playing.

Smallwood,

This sounds like a good way to proceed, thank you. I fooled myself into thinking I could have my WoW and the work too - I even made attempts to self-observe while playing, which was always a huge failure. The game almost forces you do identify with it, and self-observation goes right out the window. Or maybe I forced MYSELF to identify, because I knew that the moment I didn't identify with WoW it would stop being fun, and I would see no point in even playing it. I've now been disabused of my delusions about WoW's compatibility with the work. I feel amazed that I couldn't reach this conclusion by myself, since it was all right there in front of me... But I'm glad that everyone here was willing to hold up a mirror for me.

Edit: Darn, I should have just read the entire thread before answering. Pepperfritz said the same thing better. Anyway, I think that cutting gaming will work to show you just how much They Play You. And that worked for me.

No problem. Both of you saying it in different ways helped me understand it more fully. :)

My own experience with trying to cut gaming: while I had cut my gaming for some time (no gaming at all for a month), I began to have serious desire to go back. I almost salivated of the thought! Luckily, I had sold my PS2 controller to a friend so I couldn't. It has been now about four months and they occupy my mind no longer. And I was a gamer for years! Anyway, it was important to fill the time I spent gaming with something else. I read a lot of the diet-threads and came up with some life-saving information. Someone here said that "when uncertain: Read" and it helped me. And it needs to be said; I had tried to cut gaming earlier completely and I hadn't succeeded. And the last time I thought of limiting my gaming, it was just that: limiting, but I ended up leaving it for good. It is quite important to realize that you will not succeed with the first try. But with that first try, you can still observe the relation between you and gaming.

I think my biggest struggle will be wondering what to do with my time. Reading sounds like an excellent way to solve that problem. And trying to self-observe, of course. I've already seen some of WoW's effect on me when I'm not playing. I tend to think about my characters, plan out what I'm going to do next time I play, look up stuff about it online, etc. It doesn't consume every waking hour, but close enough to be really bad. So I'm somewhat prepared for what the "withdrawal" may be like. One thing I haven't mentioned yet is that my two roommates play WoW too. They're the ones who got me into it, and we frequently help each other in-game. So I also wonder if I'll be facing some "peer pressure." Or at least a bit of ridicule, as I doubt they'll understand why I'm quitting. I agree with what you said about failing the first time. I won't plan to fail, but it's good to know that failure can be fodder for the work. But even allowing the possibility of failure, I feel like my WoW days need to end soon. Because the next expansion is coming out in November or so. And I really don't want to still be playing when it does.

At any rate, going by what I've understood from your posts, you are in a quite similar situation that I was a few months back. And in the end, I saw gaming as detrimental. Not positive, not even neutral, just outright negative. But know that there is nothing blameworthy if you keep on gaming. It is your life to do with what you want.

I'm starting to see it as negative too. It seems to have many hidden effects on the human brain, and none of them are good. I've considered playing some of my console games again (which have just been gathering dust since I started WoW). They're still negative, but not nearly the huge time-sink of an MMORPG. However, I think this one-month WoW "fast" should mean no games at all. Maybe once it's over, I'll find I've lost interest in video games entirely. I guess we'll see.

It would be like having an internal COINTELPRO agent bent on my destruction, and that agent would technically be ME. That's a scary thought.

Pretty much - see part of the horror of the situation?

Yes anart... and the fact that this is only PART of the horror makes it even more horrific.

So what in my words makes you so sure?

The way you wrote your first post on this topic and this:

So with this in mind, should we strive towards any kind of self-improvement at all? Wouldn't any attempt to improve one's self be mechanical and unconscious? And while we're still asleep, an improved self would be just as artificial as an "unimproved" self, wouldn't it? Maybe more artificial in some cases. It seems like it would be best to just observe ourselves "as is" without any attempt to make changes in our daily habits.

If we had answered 'yes' to these questions of yours - if we had agreed with your take on it - the premise you put out as being likely true - then you would have all the assurance you needed to go back to your games and movies - that is why you asked the questions the way you asked them. It was an exercise in getting tacit 'permission' to do what IT wants to do.

I see that now. I just wonder why I didn't see it UNTIL now. Why did it require another person to tell me before it became so obvious? My original intent - on the surface anyway - was based on my "understanding" that nothing of significance can really be done in one's life until one begins to awaken - except for self-observation and self-remembering. But now I understand that my question was not only poorly worded, it was poorly worded DELIBERATELY, as a manipulative tactic by a part of myself I wasn't even seeing. I also see that my question derived from misunderstanding the concept of not being able to "do." If I were to try quitting WoW in order to generally "better my life" somehow, with no relation to the work at all, THEN it might be meaningless. But quitting it to aid myself in the work is a different thing altogether.

I assume you have read the following threads, but, if not - please do so - in their entirety. I would also tend to disagree with Pepperfritz's take that one should take 'small steps' in this particular case - and that cutting off all gaming in this case is a bad idea. An addict doesn't recover by doing their drug of choice every once in a while, or only five times a week versus six.

I hadn't previously read those two threads, but last night I read them both completely. Lots of food for thought in them. I think you're right that going cold turkey is best with a game like this. I like Smallwood's suggestion to cut it off completely for a month. Because in all likelihood I'll stay quit permanently, but telling those WoW-loving I's that it's "only a month" will make them more agreeagble to quitting.

As Helle said,

At some point, you just have to delete it from your harddrive, and go join a gym or some other activity that takes you outta the house.

That is, if you are sincere about waking up. fwiw.

Indeed. Although I know certain I's in me definitely want to keep playing until doomsday... I also know that I want to wake up MORE than I want to get the next piece of epic gear in WoW.

Oh btw, I've now purchased online the psychology books Laura recommends for beginners in the work (thanks PepperFritz!), except Unholy Hungers, which I already own. The books should be here within a week or less, then it's reading time. In my zeal, I also accidentally bought a book titled Trapped in the Magic Mirror (missed the "Magic" part, lol). But on looking further into the book, it may actually be worth reading. It's subtitled "Shattering the Illusions about Romance and Marriage," which is an area I could use some help in... Besides it only cost a dollar plus shipping, so no big deal. :)

Thanks for the "WoW intervention," guys. That's not why I started this thread, but that's clearly what I needed. I'm glad you were able to see that.

 

[vinny]

this thread has moved on a bit onto the effect of video games, but that's ok, its probably important to discuss it because it seems to affect so many. It is worth observing yourself while considering "I'm going to just stop playing WoW" and this will give you the opportunity for you to watch the internal panic and all the internal dialog go into frenzied justification overdrive. That might be a good measure of how strongly it has you.

 

[T.C.]

Or maybe I forced MYSELF to identify, because I knew that the moment I didn't identify with WoW it would stop being fun, and I would see no point in even playing it.

I think this is a very true realisation, and a very helpful one. It's a sign of objectivity.

Until recently, I've always found escape through comedy shows. But now I find that if I watch them more objectively, I hardly ever laugh. They have an 'empty' feel, I'm just watching 'one empty vessel pouring into another'. All the jokes are based on subjective premises, which you have to be culturally indoctrinated to find funny. When you take those subjective premises away, you see it's really just another form of control and programming.

I think my biggest struggle will be wondering what to do with my time.

This is similar to the "fear of silence" I mentioned in the "Technology.... the enemy?" thread. One of Martha Stouts tips on self improvement at the end of Myth of Sanity is "learn to love silence". When you stop doing something that has always been an escape, you find you'll start to think a lot; the gaming has been usurping your mental and emotional energies. You end up being left to face yourself, be with yourself. Keeping a journal is helpful at this stage.

 

[Argonaut]

[quote author=Nomad]
It is worth observing yourself while considering "I'm going to just stop playing WoW" and this will give you the opportunity for you to watch the internal panic and all the internal dialog go into frenzied justification overdrive. That might be a good measure of how strongly it has you.
[/quote]

I've been noticing this, yes. Lots of "But I've invested so much time in my characters; it'll be such a waste!" To which I say, "It was a waste from the start!" But strangely, the majority of the panic centers around my WoW-playing roommates and what their reactions might be. I feel as if the quitting would be much easier without this factor. I've toyed with the idea of quitting in the past, but my roommates have always convinced me to continue. Now I'm no longer "toying," so they'll just have to deal with it. But I still feel some trepidation.

[quote author=T.C.]
Until recently, I've always found escape through comedy shows. But now I find that if I watch them more objectively, I hardly ever laugh. They have an 'empty' feel, I'm just watching 'one empty vessel pouring into another'. All the jokes are based on subjective premises, which you have to be culturally indoctrinated to find funny. When you take those subjective premises away, you see it's really just another form of control and programming.
[/quote]

This makes sense, yeah. I'm not to this point with TV shows, but I've noticed that I find certain things hilarious, usually completely random things, while the majority of a show's "humor" falls flat for me. I'm not sure if that has much to do with objectivity; it probably just says something about my (very subjective) personality. But I know an objective mind can find humor in things... I've noticed that the C's do, at times. :) As you said, though, the humor won't be in the subjective premises that we're "supposed" to find funny.

[quote author=T.C.]
One of Martha Stouts tips on self improvement at the end of Myth of Sanity is "learn to love silence". When you stop doing something that has always been an escape, you find you'll start to think a lot; the gaming has been usurping your mental and emotional energies. You end up being left to face yourself, be with yourself. Keeping a journal is helpful at this stage.
[/quote]

Keeping a journal sounds like a good idea. I may also take notes on things I read. And since the weather's starting to get nice now, I could spend some time outside. Which is something I almost never do nowdays.

 

[Argonaut]

Helle,

I neglected to specifically reply to your post, so I'll just do it now :)

[quote author=Helle]
I used to play Online games such as Everquest and Wow every second I could, so I know how you feel..
[/quote]

It's encouraging to know that others have been there and come out the other side. I had originally planned to stop playing for a month and observe the game's affect on me during that time. But as my plans progressed I decided that it would be better to just end it permanently, right away.

So today was the day I opened up the WoW account page and hit the "Cancel Account" button. I actually experienced some anxiety and what almost felt like mourning. As if I were abandoning my close companions. Not my in-game friends, either - I mean my characters! I've spent so much time, thought, and energy building and playing them that my identification with them is extreme. It feels like they're real, living individuals whom I will miss deeply. It also feels similar to ending a romantic relationship. This shows just how insidious and powerful the game's hold is on my mind. It's REAL to me, in a way I didn't realize until my mouse pointer was hovering over that cancel button.

[quote author=Helle]
At some point, you just have to delete it from your harddrive, and go join a gym or some other activity that takes you outta the house.
[/quote]

Yes, my decision needs to be made final. I'll remove WoW from my hard drive and probably destroy the installation discs as well. That still leaves my roommates' two sets of discs lying around, so re-installing wouldn't be impossible... But I view destroying my discs as a symbolic act. A message to my WoW-playing I's that it's OVER.

I do still feel worried about what to do with the extra time I'll have. But all of you have offered excellent suggestions for this.

[quote author=Helle]
I still miss it sometimes.
[/quote]

A few days ago I didn't think that I'd miss it long after I quit. But now I feel that I probably will. So how long ago did you quit?

[quote author=Helle]
Time spent practicing self-observation is much more rewarding though :)
[/quote]

I agree. :)

And just in case this post is the end of the thread, I want to thank everyone here for their unflinching objectivity and help. And particularly you, anart... Because it was your posts which shocked me into seeing the truth. My reaction to your first post was anger. I felt like I was being attacked, assuming you missed the point of what I was trying to say. But you saw the REAL point. I was abusing Gurdjieff's ideas - and this forum - in order to justify my self-destructive habit. I also abused myself, because I did have a legitimate question that I wanted help with, but I twisted and manipulated it into the post which began this thread. I had no idea I could do such an awful thing. Horror of the situation indeed.

Now I've become a bit wiser about myself. And I'm free of that life-sucking game, so now I can focus on the work. Plus the question I intended to ask was fully answered over the course of the thread. Can't beat that. :D Thank you all again.

 

[Helle]

I actually experienced some anxiety and what almost felt like mourning. As if I were abandoning my close companions. Not my in-game friends, either - I mean my characters! I've spent so much time, thought, and energy building and playing them that my identification with them is extreme. It feels like they're real, living individuals whom I will miss deeply. It also feels similar to ending a romantic relationship. This shows just how insidious and powerful the game's hold is on my mind. It's REAL to me, in a way I didn't realize until my mouse pointer was hovering over that cancel button.

I know exactly how you feel, believe me..

I've been playing online for 9 years straight, and I finally quit for GOOD 1 year ago. I had my whole social life online, I even found my husband there..
I've been quitting several times, but only lasted a few months tops, before I found myself reinstalling and patching all night :P
I wont ever go back now though, I'm finally free.. The only thing I kept from there, was my husband.

Finding things to do with all the free time is much harder, than I imagined. I think it will be even harder for you, having roommates that play and all.

At first I was still sitting at my PC alot, but reading rather than playing. There's alot of good reading material out there to last you a lifetime, and just participating on this forum in a constructive way, is very timeconsuming, so don't worry too much about the extra time.

I'd worry more about your roomies.. You have to make it clear to them, that you don't WANT to play anymore, and that it's okay, that they still do play. Most certain they'll want you to keep playing, and making you feel like you're missing out. The only thing you're missing out on while playing, is awakening.

Don't ever think you'll get 'over' it. As I wrote previously, something in me still miss playing. I don't let my guards down though, cuz I believe it'll never go away!

You'll have to re-make the decision of not playing, every single day. Some days every single hour. An addiction is an addiction, so treat it like it is. ;)

I hope you'll share your progress,ups and downs here, in your new life, because it does indeed feel like a whole new life.

Helle.

 

[anart]

It's encouraging to know that others have been there and come out the other side.

Well, in case you missed it in the video game threads I posted, I was very heavily involved in gaming at one point - started with EverQuest for years and even played WoW for a while when it first came out. I was addicted - no question - it was how I spent most of my time -- 'chasing goblins' online. So - I'd been there...

And just in case this post is the end of the thread, I want to thank everyone here for their unflinching objectivity and help. And particularly you, anart... Because it was your posts which shocked me into seeing the truth. My reaction to your first post was anger. I felt like I was being attacked, assuming you missed the point of what I was trying to say. But you saw the REAL point. I was abusing Gurdjieff's ideas - and this forum - in order to justify my self-destructive habit.

I'm just glad you could eventually see it for what it was - that's always a toss up, you know - most people choose to not see it and just go with the anger. Anger is a great 'clue' that something deeper is going on, by the way - just in case you come across it in the future.

Expect to miss the gaming, by the way - sometimes very strongly - that's sort of how it works until your brain gets used to being away from it (heck, even now, there are some days I think about it!!) :)

 

[PepperFritz]

Well, in case you missed it in the video game threads I posted, I was very heavily involved in gaming at one point - started with EverQuest for years and even played WoW for a while when it first came out. I was addicted - no question - it was how I spent most of my time -- 'chasing goblins' online. So - I'd been there....

My apologies for not understanding the full scope of the subject. I have never played the kind of games you are talking about; at worst I used to routinely play a game or two of online "Scrabble" before bed, or an occasional game of "Hearts". I was responding to Alderpax's activity in this area as though it were simply "habitual" in nature, and not LITERALLY "addictive". In that respect, it certainly does sound as though going "cold turkey" is probably the best approach if one is serious about breaking free of it....

 

[Argonaut]

[quote author=Helle]
I know exactly how you feel, believe me..

I've been playing online for 9 years straight, and I finally quit for GOOD 1 year ago. I had my whole social life online, I even found my husband there..
I've been quitting several times, but only lasted a few months tops, before I found myself reinstalling and patching all night :P
[/quote]

Helle,

I've been playing about as long, but it hasn't been continuous. I started with Ultima Online, moved on to EverQuest, then Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes, and finally WoW. But there were usually long periods of non-gaming in between each one - sometimes a year or more. Usually I would quit because the game got too boring and repetitive, and it would take a while before I'd be willing to try another MMORPG. But with WoW... It just wasn't getting old. I guess I'd finally found my "perfect drug," lol.

One difference between WoW and preveious games - WoW is the first one I've played since becoming familiar with the work. I wonder if that has anything to do with my extreme attachment to it vs. past games. Were my I's purposely trying to avoid the work? Or was it possibly the General Law operating through my roomies who got me into WoW? Just speculating, but it makes me wonder.

[quote author=Helle]
I wont ever go back now though, I'm finally free.. The only thing I kept from there, was my husband.
[/quote]

Yes, good things can come from bad sometimes. :)


[quote author=Helle]
At first I was still sitting at my PC alot, but reading rather than playing. There's alot of good reading material out there to last you a lifetime, and just participating on this forum in a constructive way, is very timeconsuming, so don't worry too much about the extra time.
[/quote]

That's what I'm discovering. Time can pass really quickly while reading and posting here. Which isn't a bad thing.

[quote author=Helle]
I'd worry more about your roomies.. You have to make it clear to them, that you don't WANT to play anymore, and that it's okay, that they still do play. Most certain they'll want you to keep playing, and making you feel like you're missing out.
[/quote]

I did make it clear to them, and they seem ok with it. One of them was teasing me about it, and assumed I was being silly, quitting because I "should" rather than because I wanted to. Which is partly true, of course... But I chose to employ the "strategic enclosure" idea and play a role here. I told them that I quit WoW because I just got tired of it and didn't feel like playing anymore. If I revealed that it was because I wanted to devote myself to the work, and that my decision was influenced by this forum, they would balk. And I know there would be a lot of pressure from them to keep playing. I read a post from anart last night in the "Marital conflict, children and the work" thread which made me think. Here's the portion that struck me:

[quote author=anart]
sincerity with everyone is a weakness, as Gurdjieff says. This is not a game and do not doubt for one minute that the General Law in all its forms will try to destroy you if you are not very wise and sly about what you are doing.
[/quote]

I took from this (and other posts on the thread) that full disclosure of my reasons for quitting WoW could bring the force of the General Law down on my head, resulting in extreme pressure to continue playing. So I'm proceeding cautiously with my roomies, giving them a heavily "edited" version of why I'm quitting. So far it seems to be working out fine.

[quote author=Helle]
I hope you'll share your progress,ups and downs here, in your new life, because it does indeed feel like a whole new life.
[/quote]

I definitely will. Maybe the info will even help someone else. :)



[quote author=anart]
Well, in case you missed it in the video game threads I posted, I was very heavily involved in gaming at one point - started with EverQuest for years and even played WoW for a while when it first came out. I was addicted - no question - it was how I spent most of my time -- 'chasing goblins' online. So - I'd been there...
[/quote]

anart,

Yes, I noticed that you too are an ex-gamer. That actually helped me see where you were coming from on this thread a bit more clearly. I was suprised at how many others here are ex-gamers. It's encouraging that so many on this forum have been where I'm at.

[quote author=anart]
I'm just glad you could eventually see it for what it was - that's always a toss up, you know - most people choose to not see it and just go with the anger. Anger is a great 'clue' that something deeper is going on, by the way - just in case you come across it in the future.
[/quote]

I'm glad, too. And yes, in retrospect the anger was way out of proportion to the situation, so that should've been my first clue. I went back and read your initial post, and I see no trace of the "meanness" or "attacking" that I percieved the first time I read it. Misperceiving your post was another attempt to justify my behavior, I suppose - I felt that if you were irrationally attacking me, then I could safely dismiss what you were saying.

[quote author=anart]
Expect to miss the gaming, by the way - sometimes very strongly - that's sort of how it works until your brain gets used to being away from it (heck, even now, there are some days I think about it!!) :)
[/quote]

I'll stay vigilant for this, although I'm probably not fully ready for how bad it could get. Thanks. :)



[quote author=PepperFritz]
My apologies for not understanding the full scope of the subject. I have never played the kind of games you are talking about; at worst I used to routinely play a game or two of online "Scrabble" before bed, or an occasional game of "Hearts". I was responding to Alderpax's activity in this area as though it were simply "habitual" in nature, and not LITERALLY "addictive". In that respect, it certainly does sound as though going "cold turkey" is probably the best approach if one is serious about breaking free of it....
[/quote]


No worries, PepperFritz. At the time I thought it was just habitual, too. Sometimes the line between "habit" and "addiction" looks a bit fuzzy. But now that I have quit, I can tell that WoW was an addiction. Correction - IS an addiction. I've quit playing, but I won't be over it for quite some time.

 

[Argonaut]

Just an update - One of my roommates is making things extremely difficult for me since I quit WoW. Since the three of us played together, she (I'll call her "Sue") is treating my quitting as a personal offense against her. To compound matters, my other roommate (the first roomie's husband, I'll call him "Mike") has chosen to quit the guild the three of us started together and join a more hardcore "raiding guild" so he can get some epic gear. So now Sue is feeling suddenly alone and abandoned in the game, and she's reacting with hurt and anger - towards both Mike and me, but especially me. Sue told me that she'd eventually get over her anger. But in the meantime, she seems to be doing her best to make me feel guilty and like crap for quitting on her. And she still keeps telling me that quitting WoW in general was a stupid idea and I'm making a mistake.

So far none of these emotional games are influencing me to start playing WoW again, because I'm trying to keep them in perspective and remain objective... but they are making things strained. And I find it all confusing. I understand why Sue is personally attached to WoW, but I don't get why she's so attached to ME playing it. Is it 4D STS trying to manipulate me through her? Is it the General Law? Does she feel that by quitting, I'm somehow condemning her for continuing to play? Whatever it is, I'm getting a lot more external pressure to go back to WoW than I expected.

I suppose in the end, the emotions and situations generated by this are just grist for the mill of self-observation.

 

[Tigersoap]

I understand why Sue is personally attached to WoW, but I don't get why she's so attached to ME playing it. Is it 4D STS trying to manipulate me through her? Is it the General Law? Does she feel that by quitting, I'm somehow condemning her for continuing to play? Whatever it is, I'm getting a lot more external pressure to go back to WoW than I expected.

Maybe she is just re-living feelings rejection and abandonment and it hurts for her to be faced with it again ?
Maybe if you feel that she could understand that you leaving the game has nothing to do with her, would help ?
It's just my perception of it and it probably does not take into account a lot of things invovled.

Quote from: anart
Expect to miss the gaming, by the way - sometimes very strongly - that's sort of how it works until your brain gets used to being away from it (heck, even now, there are some days I think about it!!) Smiley
I'll stay vigilant for this, although I'm probably not fully ready for how bad it could get. Thanks.

I have been there as well and still find very weird how I get this hitch and burn when I am in a store where they sell videogames, I sometimes even check out the latest games cover, but what helped me so far is to see how much valuable time has been wasted and how each time I bought another game, I felt empty, there wasn't anything in it that really interested me after all, the same plots, the same kind of story, it was just a big cosmetic change but nothing of depth albeit the industry always tries to sell it like the best new thing.

I relapsed a few times and each time I gave myself excuses (you deserve it, you have nothing else to do...) to play a game, I kept the steam application on my hard drive, in case of "emergency" :D, I felt very guilty afterwards most of the time but there is no use feeling bad about it. I had to really get sick of my weakness to get rid of it and like I said it never really went away that I don't think about it at all, especially around Christmas ;)

 

[Helle]

Seems to me, that's she's maybe emotional trying to manipulate you?

Try to read this http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/emotional_manipulation.htm and see if anything there rings a bell.

I'll give you the advice I received here:
Acceding to manipulation generally amplifies the STS-ness of the manipulator. Thus for STO to be expressed, manipulation should be refused".


Hang in there :D

 

[Argonaut]

[quote author=Tigersoap]
Maybe she is just re-living feelings rejection and abandonment and it hurts for her to be faced with it again ?
[/quote]

This is very possible, yes.

[quote author=Tigersoap]
Maybe if you feel that she could understand that you leaving the game has nothing to do with her, would help ?
[/quote]

Maybe, but her issue with why I left seems to be unrelated to her abandoned feelings. She thinks I quit WoW because I "should" rather than because I really wanted to. Which to her is a silly reason, because she sees the game as fine in moderation. But since in the process I (and her husband) have suddenly left her playing WoW alone, she feels abandoned regardless of why I quit.

[quote author=Tigersoap]
I have been there as well and still find very weird how I get this hitch and burn when I am in a store where they sell videogames, I sometimes even check out the latest games cover, but what helped me so far is to see how much valuable time has been wasted and how each time I bought another game, I felt empty, there wasn't anything in it that really interested me after all, the same plots, the same kind of story, it was just a big cosmetic change but nothing of depth albeit the industry always tries to sell it like the best new thing.
[/quote]

I've always felt this drive when in a store. It amazes me just how deeply it's been pounded into our psyche - the idea that we MUST play the hot new games.

[quote author=Tigersoap]
I relapsed a few times and each time I gave myself excuses (you deserve it, you have nothing else to do...) to play a game, I kept the steam application on my hard drive, in case of "emergency" :D, I felt very guilty afterwards most of the time but there is no use feeling bad about it. I had to really get sick of my weakness to get rid of it and like I said it never really went away that I don't think about it at all, especially around Christmas ;)
[/quote]

I totally understand this; excuses and guilt are things I struggle with in this area, too. I've even used the same two excuses you mentioned. If all this "programming" is going to keep affecting me then I got a long road ahead, but the "payoff" is worth it. :)

[quote author=Helle]
Seems to me, that's she's maybe emotional trying to manipulate you?

Try to read this http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/emotional_manipulation.htm and see if anything there rings a bell.
[/quote]

I read the article, and she does seem somewhat manipulative. Also, the following lines seem to fit her in general:

Emotional manipulators somehow have the ability to impact the emotional climate of those around them. When an emotional manipulator is sad or angry the very room thrums with it - it brings a deep instinctual response to find someway to equalize the emotional climate and the quickest route is by making the emotional manipulator feel better - fixing whatever is broken for them.

That seems to be a daily situation with Sue - she gets upset, the entire mood of the house "drops," and someone (usually her husband) bends over backwards to "fix" things so her mood returns to normal. Her emotions are highly volatile; she has a severe victim mentality, explodes in anger easily, and never apologizes - because she thinks all of her reactions and attitudes are justified. So these are all earmarks of a manipulator.

But this is all only when she's in a "bad mood." There's another side to her that's completely different. She reacts to things normally and reasonably, is pleasant to be around, and can talk openly about almost anything. She is literally like two different people.

I honestly get the impression that any manipulation from her is unintentional - i.e. when she acts hurt, she genuinely feels hurt; it's not a show intended to manipulate. I'm sure she does know what she's doing on some level. But it just doesn't seem like she's the type to be cold, calculating, and deceptive. Her dysfunctional emotions are very STS, but they seem real enough to her. She seems more bipolar than anything.

But aside from that, emotional manipulation IS what she's doing, whether she realizes it or not.

I'll give you the advice I received here:
Acceding to manipulation generally amplifies the STS-ness of the manipulator. Thus for STO to be expressed, manipulation should be refused".


Hang in there :D

This is excellent advice. It goes against our (programmed) natural inclinations, but it makes sense. I'll keep it in mind, and I will not let Sue guilt-trip me into playing WoW again. Thanks. :)

 

[T.C.]

Is it the General Law?

Major yes! But it doesn't necessarily mean that someone "out there" is pushing her buttons in real time response to your decision (although, it could). It's more likely a demonstration of how years of programming affect people. Once the programming is uploaded, WE do all the 'donkey work' for the 4D STS's.

it's not a show intended to manipulate.

It sounds like it IS a show intended to manipulate. Whether she's conscious of it or not, it just seems the fact is, 'this is the type of person she is'. She'd probably react in this manipulative way towards anyone who's choices mean she can't get what she wants.

So try not to worry about her, she's got her problems and you can't do anything about that; but keep up the good work on yourself! :)

 

[anart]

It sounds like you've gotten some good advice. It could also be that she finds it easier to take this out on you than on her husband. You quit for your own reasons - he, on the other hand, just proved that he'd rather have epic gear than hang out with his wife in-game. Instead of taking out her anger about this on him she's taking it out on you - since that is safer. It might not be conscious on her part, but I'd bet my last arrow that's at least part of what's going on. Gaming is, ultimately, a very selfish thing.

Fascinating how much real life turmoil can be created by something that does not exist. All of it - the toons, the gear, the dragons - all of it simply exists as electrical impulses inside a server somewhere - and it's nothing more than that - none of it 'exists' and one good EMP (think comet strike) and it all vanishes. Hmmm, I guess that could be said for sleeping humanity as well...