Self Interest Vs Group Interest

[Lizziespreparetogovegan]

I've just finished reading the end of Pierre's book here and firstly just have to say, wow..... it's sincerely a stunning amalgamation of research, both scientifically and historically. It seems that the particular dot connecting of the data has certainly delved waaaay deeper into illuminating the objective workings of our Universe and the truly symbiotic (and currently perilous) relationship between mankind and the cosmos.

Of course it expands on and validates the ideas here regarding humans being both receivers and transducers of energy/information and moreover that we are potential transducers of TRUTH and ORDER. Most importantly (and seemingly where every other researcher fails) the book also highlights the solution which lies at the heart of the perilous situation we face:

From 'Earth Changes and the Human Cosmic Connection'

"Synergy in a group is relatively rare but there are documented instances where the group achieves collectively something which could not have been achieved by any member working alone or by a combination of individual efforts. Those few instances occurred most of the time when the group members were highly motivated, which leads to a shift where:

The group abandons incorrect answers when better ideas are proposed by someone in the group

The rarity of real life examples of synergy occurring in human groups might be due to the lack of co-linearity: shared motivation, shared objectives, shared vision of the world. Also, individual interest must come second to group interest for synergy to occur."

Now regarding this and particularly the last sentence in relation to working on myself: to say this resonates with me would be an understatement. To me, it is at once perhaps one of the most elementary and objectively observable truths available to us and at the same time it sincerely appears (weighing it along with the plethora of other research here) to offer the keys to liberation.

The problem is for me that I understand this intellectually and fully agree with it and yet I don't FEEL it in my being. i.e. I don't feel it enough to motivate me to the core of my being. To clarify, I'm motivated to work on MYSELF and to improve my existence and sense of well-being but the point is, is that the motivation exits for ME. Whilst this is something I sincerely wish to overcome (and indeed am sick to my bones of it), my interior life is still very much filled up with MY problems, MY aspirations, MY hopes and dreams and the inclination and urgency to address MY life in general.

Now, it's slowly dawning on me that there may indeed be no such thing, spiritually, as 'saving one's self'. Or at least if there is, it is perhaps a minor, limited and low level distraction in comparison with the possible attainments via true fourth way work within a co-linear group, leading to practical results in the real world and thus within one's self. It seems that at the core of the fourth way teaching and the research here is that one must make the ultimate sacrifice for the ultimate reward; but the key insight to be gleaned is that the reward is of an entirely different nature and quality to how we would normally perceive the very notion of 'reward': it is a GROUP reward and cannot be anything else.

And so my ego is having trouble fully assimilating this and am struggling with the particulars regarding the bridge between self and group work. In many ways, due to life's wounding I've had a fear throughout the years of committing too much energy to anything I perceive as 'outside' or extraneous to myself and my perceived 'needs' at any given time. One of my core programs revolves around perceiving my self as a 'self contained unit'. I'm guessing (I don't know) that this may be a very significant program and one of the bigger obstacles for many when considering some the seemingly advanced members of the forum who have contributed significantly here and then left. We come here to work on 'ourselves' (which is difficult enough) and at some point must arrive at the threshold where we realise that it's really not just about us but about 'US': the group, which is firstly and profoundly gestalt in nature. I was thinking also that the few lines from De Salzmann's First inititiation regarding recognizing 'nothing above you' also seem very pertinent in regards to a group aim and goal (though perhaps such an interpretation is stretching the intention of her meaning).

Anyway, I've seen this 'self contained unit' program running in almost all areas of my life: relationships, friendships, work and indeed in terms of participating on the forum here. However, as the C's said in a recent session:

From session 17th May 2014

Q: (L) Okay. I'm going to start the discussion with what's on my mind. Actually, there are two things. The first thing is that I noticed that after the last session, a lot of people discussing it in the forum thread volunteered information about what they were doing to help to do this, to do that, and the other thing. We had the impression here that when the information came through that a person must put another on the step behind them, that that meant directly in terms of the Work... That it had to be someone on the ladder, or on the stairway, or on the path so to speak. So, could you clarify that? Is that, in fact, what was meant? That you meant somebody who was really asking and engaged in working on themselves, etc?

A: More than that, it means that total engagement in energy exchange with the network. If a person benefits from the efforts of others and there is no return energy, there will be blocks of all sorts in their lives.

Q: (L) Okay, when you say, "There will be blocks of all sorts in their lives"... Blocks of what kind?

A: The blocks will reflect what it is that they are unable to give. If a person cannot be sincere, they will experience people in their personal lives who are not sincere with them. If a person devalues another's efforts, they will find their own efforts devalued. If you need to unblock a certain area of your life, make the effort to give what you want or need yourself.

Q: (L) But are you talking particularly about people engaged in the Work, or just anybody in general?

A: Anybody, but double in the work.

So, it's painful to be honest about this because I'm having to expose what I perceive to be my most drastic failures. ie I'm essentially very selfish and interested in attaining my own 'well-being' above almost everything else. The irony of this (and yet also the startling beauty) is that true salvation lies in giving what one needs. Again, I'm also having to admit that I'm blocking myself and having trouble breaking free of this and so this makes me feel like an incompetent fool: In Mouravieff's terms I know this and yet do not understand it. How to bridge this chasm? I hope perhaps this post is a step in the right direction and also that the thread wont be all about ME.

Funny, I start off writing such posts feeling I've had such a startling revelation and and the end feel as if I'm stating something so obvious that it needs not even be said and may be noise. Thought I'd put it out there anyway.......

 

[kalibex]

It's not noise at all, Zenith - I found reading this very helpful. As I suspect many others will, too.

 

[KJN]

The only way to bridge a chasm is to build a bridge. This is step-by-step and action-by-action. If your aim is true and your intent is steadfast, you will not be in the same place tomorrow as you are today. And, eventually there will be no chasm as you will be walking on solid territory within yourself. In the case of "make the effort to give what you want or need yourself" it is similar to the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

A revelation will not be just how you think something out, or what inspires a connection, it is the actualization of the thought in deed, indeed!

Getting over the idea that one is a "self-contained unit" is a hard one. I have worked on this myself. Learning that all that energy I put into learning to be someone who was physically, emotionally, spiritually self-sufficient, actually left me fooling myself and at a "dead end" because there was nothing to make me uncomfortable enough to reach out and ask for help, seek comfort or show vulnerability. I have worked a decade or more to turn this around and I feel blessed that it has. If everyone on the forum were self-contained units, we would not ever reach the level of connection, inspiration and scope that this vehicle provides. We are all mostly inadequate and the simple idea is to know yourself enough to I-dentify those deficits and seek knowledge from those who have been there or have a way to "lighten" your bridge over the chasm.

 

[Mark]

Funny, I start off writing such posts feeling I've had such a startling revelation and and the end feel as if I'm stating something so obvious that it needs not even be said and may be noise.

I suspect a lot of people experience that here. I know that I do sometimes. Seems to me it's a good place to start building a bridge as KJN put it. And if something turns out to be noise, then so be it, you can learn from that and so can others :)

 

[987baz]

The problem is for me that I understand this intellectually and fully agree with it and yet I don't FEEL it in my being. i.e. I don't feel it enough to motivate me to the core of my being. To clarify, I'm motivated to work on MYSELF and to improve my existence and sense of well-being but the point is, is that the motivation exits for ME. Whilst this is something I sincerely wish to overcome (and indeed am sick to my bones of it), my interior life is still very much filled up with MY problems, MY aspirations, MY hopes and dreams and the inclination and urgency to address MY life in general.

Thanks for posting Zenith, indeed I have been struggling with this as well.

We are all STS here, working towards becoming STO candidates, so, IMO it is only "natural" that we think in these terms (MY problems etc). But, to become STO candidates we help ourselves by helping others. So, by networking and helping others we in turn get help. As the C's say, the battle is always there. I think it is the intention to work towards STO that helps in this process, and, obviously our actions. I could be off the mark, just my two cents.

 

[Anthony]

I've just finished reading the end of Pierre's book here and firstly just have to say, wow..... it's sincerely a stunning amalgamation of research, both scientifically and historically. It seems that the particular dot connecting of the data has certainly delved waaaay deeper into illuminating the objective workings of our Universe and the truly symbiotic (and currently perilous) relationship between mankind and the cosmos.

Of course it expands on and validates the ideas here regarding humans being both receivers and transducers of energy/information and moreover that we are potential transducers of TRUTH and ORDER. Most importantly (and seemingly where every other researcher fails) the book also highlights the solution which lies at the heart of the perilous situation we face:

From 'Earth Changes and the Human Cosmic Connection'

"Synergy in a group is relatively rare but there are documented instances where the group achieves collectively something which could not have been achieved by any member working alone or by a combination of individual efforts. Those few instances occurred most of the time when the group members were highly motivated, which leads to a shift where:

The group abandons incorrect answers when better ideas are proposed by someone in the group

The rarity of real life examples of synergy occurring in human groups might be due to the lack of co-linearity: shared motivation, shared objectives, shared vision of the world. Also, individual interest must come second to group interest for synergy to occur."

Now regarding this and particularly the last sentence in relation to working on myself: to say this resonates with me would be an understatement. To me, it is at once perhaps one of the most elementary and objectively observable truths available to us and at the same time it sincerely appears (weighing it along with the plethora of other research here) to offer the keys to liberation.

The problem is for me that I understand this intellectually and fully agree with it and yet I don't FEEL it in my being. i.e. I don't feel it enough to motivate me to the core of my being. To clarify, I'm motivated to work on MYSELF and to improve my existence and sense of well-being but the point is, is that the motivation exits for ME. Whilst this is something I sincerely wish to overcome (and indeed am sick to my bones of it), my interior life is still very much filled up with MY problems, MY aspirations, MY hopes and dreams and the inclination and urgency to address MY life in general.

Now, it's slowly dawning on me that there may indeed be no such thing, spiritually, as 'saving one's self'. Or at least if there is, it is perhaps a minor, limited and low level distraction in comparison with the possible attainments via true fourth way work within a co-linear group, leading to practical results in the real world and thus within one's self. It seems that at the core of the fourth way teaching and the research here is that one must make the ultimate sacrifice for the ultimate reward; but the key insight to be gleaned is that the reward is of an entirely different nature and quality to how we would normally perceive the very notion of 'reward': it is a GROUP reward and cannot be anything else.

And so my ego is having trouble fully assimilating this and am struggling with the particulars regarding the bridge between self and group work. In many ways, due to life's wounding I've had a fear throughout the years of committing too much energy to anything I perceive as 'outside' or extraneous to myself and my perceived 'needs' at any given time. One of my core programs revolves around perceiving my self as a 'self contained unit'. I'm guessing (I don't know) that this may be a very significant program and one of the bigger obstacles for many when considering some the seemingly advanced members of the forum who have contributed significantly here and then left. We come here to work on 'ourselves' (which is difficult enough) and at some point must arrive at the threshold where we realise that it's really not just about us but about 'US': the group, which is firstly and profoundly gestalt in nature. I was thinking also that the few lines from De Salzmann's First inititiation regarding recognizing 'nothing above you' also seem very pertinent in regards to a group aim and goal (though perhaps such an interpretation is stretching the intention of her meaning).

Anyway, I've seen this 'self contained unit' program running in almost all areas of my life: relationships, friendships, work and indeed in terms of participating on the forum here. However, as the C's said in a recent session:

From session 17th May 2014

Q: (L) Okay. I'm going to start the discussion with what's on my mind. Actually, there are two things. The first thing is that I noticed that after the last session, a lot of people discussing it in the forum thread volunteered information about what they were doing to help to do this, to do that, and the other thing. We had the impression here that when the information came through that a person must put another on the step behind them, that that meant directly in terms of the Work... That it had to be someone on the ladder, or on the stairway, or on the path so to speak. So, could you clarify that? Is that, in fact, what was meant? That you meant somebody who was really asking and engaged in working on themselves, etc?

A: More than that, it means that total engagement in energy exchange with the network. If a person benefits from the efforts of others and there is no return energy, there will be blocks of all sorts in their lives.

Q: (L) Okay, when you say, "There will be blocks of all sorts in their lives"... Blocks of what kind?

A: The blocks will reflect what it is that they are unable to give. If a person cannot be sincere, they will experience people in their personal lives who are not sincere with them. If a person devalues another's efforts, they will find their own efforts devalued. If you need to unblock a certain area of your life, make the effort to give what you want or need yourself.

Q: (L) But are you talking particularly about people engaged in the Work, or just anybody in general?

A: Anybody, but double in the work.

So, it's painful to be honest about this because I'm having to expose what I perceive to be my most drastic failures. ie I'm essentially very selfish and interested in attaining my own 'well-being' above almost everything else. The irony of this (and yet also the startling beauty) is that true salvation lies in giving what one needs. Again, I'm also having to admit that I'm blocking myself and having trouble breaking free of this and so this makes me feel like an incompetent fool: In Mouravieff's terms I know this and yet do not understand it. How to bridge this chasm? I hope perhaps this post is a step in the right direction and also that the thread wont be all about ME.

Funny, I start off writing such posts feeling I've had such a startling revelation and and the end feel as if I'm stating something so obvious that it needs not even be said and may be noise. Thought I'd put it out there anyway.......

Definitely not noise, I guess a lot of people can resonate with what you wrote.
Perhaps reading about the 3 lines of Work as described by Gurdjieff could help.
And perhaps trusting that if you put in effort and energy in helping the network
(via work on SOTT/forum etc) that you will be eventually also getting help.

Q: (L) So, basically what you're saying is that people should think of it as a kind of a law that when you... maybe like the old biblical expression: "Cast your bread on the waters, and after many days, it will return to you" sort of thing? Just do it, and keep doing it without anticipation?

A: Absolutely! And it is true and works. Just notice people who do and give a lot: Are they spending time focused on the self? No!

Q: (L) Yeah, but everybody's got wounds and issues and all that kind of thing to work on. I mean...

A: [letters come very quickly] Balance! A portion of a day can be spent on reflection, but not too much. This is the Wetiko Virus: obsession with the self and subjective personal issues. The next time you feel yourself slipping into despair, just tell others how you are feeling and think of something you can do for another to prevent them from suffering the same feelings. [letters come more slowly now:] Thus you will witness the birth of true empathy.

 

[Torstone]

The problem is for me that I understand this intellectually and fully agree with it and yet I don't FEEL it in my being. i.e. I don't feel it enough to motivate me to the core of my being. To clarify, I'm motivated to work on MYSELF and to improve my existence and sense of well-being but the point is, is that the motivation exits for ME. Whilst this is something I sincerely wish to overcome (and indeed am sick to my bones of it), my interior life is still very much filled up with MY problems, MY aspirations, MY hopes and dreams and the inclination and urgency to address MY life in general.

Thank you for writing this Zenith, you say it so well and I have been thinking about this a lot myself, especially now when re-reading gnosis.

Funny, I start off writing such posts feeling I've had such a startling revelation and and the end feel as if I'm stating something so obvious that it needs not even be said and may be noise. Thought I'd put it out there anyway.......

Having the courage to do it anyway is inspiring, and I am not even sure myself if I really understand this yet. What I feel I do understand is that, at my level, I need to hear things like this over and over, if I am not going to go back to deep sleep, so thank you.



I would like to add one thing though, this has also been on my mind lately and it has do do with approaching the Work in the early stages. I hope others will point out if my reasoning is faulty or if it doesn`t make sense:

The fact that one is able to help others and contribute to a group stems from our own ability to help ourselves. The process of knowing the basics of our modus operandi is a one man game in the beginning, by that I mean that those who has come in contact with principles of the Work, must obtain in himself/herself the method of basic self-observation and basic understandings from which to have a reference point. Going on, this is necessary if one is going to process the external and internal shocks created in life in a meaningful way. Especially before contributing to a group, where very ingrained beliefs and sacred cows will be pointed out and confronted. Before this, understandings serves as clues for when one might be ready to seek out and/or contribute to such a group.

So mechanical behavior like self-pity and seeking of pleasure for its own sake will happen, but also create for those who seek the friction needed for coming to basic understandings of why the Work is necessary and how a group doing this might work on a basic level.

 

[supriyanoel]

I certainly resonate with this and it couldn't be at a better time, while being full of me and my needs. To an extent I didn't realize. And with that comes the judgment of oneself and all the loops the mind creates to stay self-centered.

I have been experiencing being a stranger in a strange land which is completely nonsense, as you are where you are and so is everyone. But all this anxiety about choices and if they're the right ones is insane. Meanwhile I am just finding how empty and lonely this is. I just bought this rather large house and thought about older people and especially children who are in devastating conditions who could be honestly cared for by me. So I asked about fostering a child and got the info. I'm a yoga teacher who is disinterested in teaching to the masses. I'd love to target the forgotten ones who are older and scared, as I also am. I don't want to just think and talk or fix anyone. Just giving the time to listen and let people know they are cared for, and also giving myself the time to enjoy these new surroundings, are something I need to relax and be with sand give the time. Its the most valuable thing I have if I utilize it and stop thinking about what I may not have or could lose. It disgusts me just hearing it. If I'm who I say I choose to be, this is not OK.On the up side I must have a consciense, cause this keeps me up.


So YES, the selfishness brings misery and watching the ones that give is an experience that you cannot deny. They are being and living and don't look sad and miserable as I've found myself, even eating pale and doing EE, which are definitely IMO the forces that enable me to adapt to such newness and such radical hits in a short period. So DNA restructuring probably has something to do with it one hopes. And yes the predators are there and they haven't been lingering. They starve around me it seems and they're bored with my questioned the lack of getting fed. The others are patient because they are caregivers in the true sense and I've taken to getting involved with new things like hiking and gardening and the change in me is noticeable when I'm not focusing on the grasping for survival in one form or another. So I also must slow down and give time some time. I hear my grandmother saying "easy, easy", and of coarse she was on with that, as usual.

This is the year of the wood horse and I'm a wood in name(IN A SMALL WAY, THE ONLY PLANET IN EARTH BEING MARS IN CAPRICORN) and a horse so theres been more physical change and upheaval which all got done smoothly as long as I stayed out of the way and was rational to the best of my ability. So no, I didn't have to torture myself and I'm remembering that and doing somewhat better. I am getting Pierre's book asap, another thing I've been dawdling with. I can see why. Just the wake-up in order. Sometimes you just don't know who and how you help by posting. So thanks, much wanted and needed.

 

[MusicMan]

This is a brilliant thread, and I just had to throw in my two-bob's worth.
In working out what's happening, and in the awakening process, we really do rely on information gleaned from those who go before us, and it must be hard for those who have to do it on their own. We each stand on the shoulders of those who go before us, and they stand opn the shoulders of those who went before them; viz.

Quote from
_en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton

"If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants.

Letter to Robert Hooke (15 February 1676) [dated as 5 February 1675 using the Julian calendar with March 25th rather than January 1st as New Years Day, equivalent to 15 February 1676 by Gregorian reckonings.] The phrase is most famous as an expression of Newton's but he was using a simile which in its earliest known form was attributed to Bernard of Chartres by John of Salisbury: Bernard of Chartres used to say that we [the Moderns] are like dwarves perched on the shoulders of giants [the Ancients], and thus we are able to see more and farther than the latter. And this is not at all because of the acuteness of our sight or the stature of our body, but because we are carried aloft and elevated by the magnitude of the giants.
"Unquote

Here is a prime example of what I think being STO is all about:
Quote from
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moira_Kelly_%28humanitarian%29

"Moira Kelly (humanitarian)
Moira Kelly (born 31 January 1964[1]) is an Australian humanitarian worker. In 2001, she was awarded the Order of Australia in recognition of her humanitarian service to both the Australian and international communities. In 2012, Kelly received the Victorian of the Year award and in 2003 and 2004, she was nominated for the Australian of the Year awards."

"Trishna and Krishna
Herself a twin,[12] Kelly is now the legal guardian of the originally cranially conjoined twins from Bangladesh, Trishna and Krishna, separated in 2009 in a 32-hour operation at Melbourne's Royal Children's Hospital by a 16 member team of specialist medical and nursing staff.."

"Emmanuel and Ahmed
Moira Kelly is also the adopted mother of Iraqi-born brothers Emmanuel and Ahmed Kelly.[15] The brothers, born with "severely underdeveloped limbs" due to chemical warfare, were discovered by Kelly in 1998 at the Mother Teresa Orphanage in Baghdad.[15] Kelly brought them both to Australia for medical treatment and subsequently adopted them.[16] In 2009, Ahmed and Emmanuel Kelly became Australian citizens.[17] Ahmed, a quadruple amputee and swimmer, represented Australia in the 50-metre breaststroke, 50-metre backstroke, 150-metre individual medley, and the 100-metre freestyle at the 2012 Summer Paralympics.[.."
Unquote

Now the above is just a small part of what Moira Kelly has done, but it serves to inspire all.
The wiki entry is worth a read.

As for myself, I was fostered as a five year old Ward of the State, and honestly don't know where I would be today if not for the family who took me in.